Exactly how have we been convinced

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Someday you too will lose a loved one. I wouldn't mock their death. I am a much better man than you.
with the way you mocked carne for the murder of his loved one, you can not make that claim.

and if we do lose a loved one, i bet it won't be because we failed to install fire alarms in a house where adults are carelessly smoking cigarettes in front of small children and infants. that's criminally negligent homicide if you ask me.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
You are incorrect. Seems you are simply making things up here. There are sociological and psychological studies that show that the rich have less empathy, and are less able or willing to understand the situations of others. Even simple experiments with monopoly and distribution of monopoly money show that same human trend. The more you have the less you care about others.
No, you got it backwards. The less you care about others, the more you keep. Wealth doesn't turn you into a bastard, being a bastard makes you wealthy.
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
You are incorrect. Seems you are simply making things up here. There are sociological and psychological studies that show that the rich have less empathy, and are less able or willing to understand the situations of others. Even simple experiments with monopoly and distribution of monopoly money show that same human trend. The more you have the less you care about others.
Consider for a moment what it must be like to be rich. I'm not talking about 300k per year, I mean rich, really wealthy. Multi millionaire.

One of the richest men I know is my exwifes uncle. He sold a business for close to $30 mill, and secured an executive level job. No idea what it pays him, but he turned down a job making 2 million a year because it meant he would have to move from Atlanta to Dallas.

I'm sure it has changed him some, but I didn't know him before, so I can't say for sure. His family seems to think it changed him very little, but he is generous with them, so maybe they are just blind to it because they like sucking off his tits, so to speak.

He came back to his hometown for thanksgiving through new years a few years back. One night they threw a party for a lot of their old friends, he and his brother are only about a year apart in age and remain close, so they share many of the same friends. This hometown of his is sort of a shithole. Not much in the way of an economy. His brother managed to marry into one of the more wealthy families in town.

Anyway, the night of the party, the rich brother, named Tim, was really excited to be seeing a lot of his old friends, people he went to high school with and grew up with. Most of them are lucky to make $30k per year in that shitty town. Anyway, he invites a lot of them over, has a lot of really good food there for them, hires a chef to come and make surf n turf. Steaks on the grill, lobster and king crab, lots of really good sides, hires a bar tender to have an open bar for people. Probably dropped 5 thousand dollars that night entertaining all these old friends.

Wouldn't you guess it, nearly everyone of them asked him for money at one point through the night. Little as a few hundred, one guy had balls and asked for a few hundred k to start a business. This really upset Tim.

I think money might change us a little, but what it really changes is people's perception of us. There is an envy associated with it. Those people remember him coming from an average home, probably nothing particularly special about him. They probably think he just got lucky.

They failed to see that the first thing he did was the one thing you'd have to do after high school if you wanted to succeed in that town, which is get the fuck out of it. They never did.

The worst part was is when he would say "let's not let tonight be about money, let's just have a good time and you can call me later" they kept on. Eventually getting kind of frustrated he didn't just open his check book. He said one of them said something like "come on man, $30,000 isn't a lot of money for you."

It goes both ways, is my point. That although having money might change us a little, or a lot, it also changes how people look at you. Although the man dropped thousands of dollars to entertain and see them that night, they all couldnt get over it that he had more than they did, and it upset them, and they felt like they were entitled to at least ask him.


There is an old saying.

"the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer"

And there is a very good reason for it. Those outcomes are mostly based on behavior. And we usually keep doing the same behavior.

So indeed, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, because, and mostly only because, the rich keep doing what it was that made them rich, and the poor keep doing what it is that is keeping them poor.
 

nontheist

Well-Known Member
This is the perpetual misunderstanding. Wealth is not evil, gross disparity between the richest and the poorest is. There is a big difference.
No its not, I doubt a single person on this forum will deny the disturbing statistics of wealth desparity. It's the solutions what we cannot agree upon, as its said "the devils in the details". One side wants to expand our authoritarian government under the ruse of fairness, while the other wants to expand our authoritarian government under the ruse of freedom.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
No, you got it backwards. The less you care about others, the more you keep. Wealth doesn't turn you into a bastard, being a bastard makes you wealthy.
They are studies, not persona opinion, not what we wish to believe.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Consider for a moment what it must be like to be rich. I'm not talking about 300k per year, I mean rich, really wealthy. Multi millionaire.

One of the richest men I know is my exwifes uncle. He sold a business for close to $30 mill, and secured an executive level job. No idea what it pays him, but he turned down a job making 2 million a year because it meant he would have to move from Atlanta to Dallas.

I'm sure it has changed him some, but I didn't know him before, so I can't say for sure. His family seems to think it changed him very little, but he is generous with them, so maybe they are just blind to it because they like sucking off his tits, so to speak.

He came back to his hometown for thanksgiving through new years a few years back. One night they threw a party for a lot of their old friends, he and his brother are only about a year apart in age and remain close, so they share many of the same friends. This hometown of his is sort of a shithole. Not much in the way of an economy. His brother managed to marry into one of the more wealthy families in town.

Anyway, the night of the party, the rich brother, named Tim, was really excited to be seeing a lot of his old friends, people he went to high school with and grew up with. Most of them are lucky to make $30k per year in that shitty town. Anyway, he invites a lot of them over, has a lot of really good food there for them, hires a chef to come and make surf n turf. Steaks on the grill, lobster and king crab, lots of really good sides, hires a bar tender to have an open bar for people. Probably dropped 5 thousand dollars that night entertaining all these old friends.

Wouldn't you guess it, nearly everyone of them asked him for money at one point through the night. Little as a few hundred, one guy had balls and asked for a few hundred k to start a business. This really upset Tim.

I think money might change us a little, but what it really changes is people's perception of us. There is an envy associated with it. Those people remember him coming from an average home, probably nothing particularly special about him. They probably think he just got lucky.

They failed to see that the first thing he did was the one thing you'd have to do after high school if you wanted to succeed in that town, which is get the fuck out of it. They never did.

The worst part was is when he would say "let's not let tonight be about money, let's just have a good time and you can call me later" they kept on. Eventually getting kind of frustrated he didn't just open his check book. He said one of them said something like "come on man, $30,000 isn't a lot of money for you."

It goes both ways, is my point. That although having money might change us a little, or a lot, it also changes how people look at you. Although the man dropped thousands of dollars to entertain and see them that night, they all couldnt get over it that he had more than they did, and it upset them, and they felt like they were entitled to at least ask him.


There is an old saying.

"the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer"

And there is a very good reason for it. Those outcomes are mostly based on behavior. And we usually keep doing the same behavior.

So indeed, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, because, and mostly only because, the rich keep doing what it was that made them rich, and the poor keep doing what it is that is keeping them poor.
I don't know what you are trying to say here, my point is that studies have been performed indicating that those with abundance behave differently This is commonly accepted. I believe I recall that the poor or middleclass give more away as a percentage of what they have than the rich do. As I said, they are scientific studies, not supposition or anecdotal stories about your ex's uncle.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
So you think money cause one to become evil?
The core of Christianity seems to hold that to be true. It is highly unlikely that a rich person will enter the gates of heaven. It seems even then they had an idea that wealth changes people, mostly for the worse.
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
I don't know what you are trying to say here, my point is that studies have been performed indicating that those with abundance behave differently This is commonly accepted. I believe I recall that the poor or middleclass give more away as a percentage of what they have than the rich do. As I said, they are scientific studies, not supposition or anecdotal stories about your ex's uncle.
I read that Huff Post article about the more money you have, the more immoral people become. Yawn. Even if true, I don't give a fuck. I'd rather have money than the friends I don't already have.
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
I don't know what you are trying to say here, my point is that studies have been performed indicating that those with abundance behave differently This is commonly accepted. I believe I recall that the poor or middleclass give more away as a percentage of what they have than the rich do. As I said, they are scientific studies, not supposition or anecdotal stories about your ex's uncle.
Well of course not, there are anecdotal stories I could tell to support your point from my exwifes uncle as well.

It is hard to empathize with something we dont fully understand. Wealthy people tend to forget that the price of something is often an obstacle for most people. They fail to grasp the delima some might face when they have to choose between feeding their children or buying them a pair of shoes.

It isn't that they lack empathy, though that is the result, it is that they are "out of touch" with the reality of what being poor actually is. Despite the fact that many have been poor themselves in their life. We grow accustom to our current situation.
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
The core of Christianity seems to hold that to be true. It is highly unlikely that a rich person will enter the gates of heaven. It seems even then they had an idea that wealth changes people, mostly for the worse.
That isn't what that passage means, a screw up in translation. I had this conversation with a Greek orthodox priest who said the real passage basically says that a rich man cannot take his riches into heaven.

In other words, heaven is that socialist utopia so many have dreamed about.

In a religion that offers universal salvation to all who accept Christ, murderers, rapists and other horrible people, you really think it would accept that and exclude someone who made money?
 

JohnnySocko

Active Member
I dont think the two are correlated at all. I know plenty of wealthy people who do great things, I know plenty of poor people who would fuck you over in an instant.
Correct, but there is a correlation in scope: poor peoples evil is confined to one murder at a time whereas a Jack Welch or CEO of BP can spread cancer causing agents to babies for generations
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
Correct, but there is a correlation in scope: poor peoples evil is confined to one murder at a time whereas a Jack Welch or CEO of BP can spread cancer causing agents to babies for generations
Does intent not matter with respect to the morality of the issue at hand?

They may accidentally spread some chemical that makes people sick, but it isn't intentional.

If for no other reason than spilling chemicals cost money. Both in product lost and the required clean up.

Despite all of this, BP, with their production of energy does much more good than bad.
 

JohnnySocko

Active Member
Test post...everytime I post it says post too short..WTF
Anyway....

Does intent not matter with respect to the morality of the issue at hand?

check- you are right

They may accidentally spread some chemical that makes people sick, but it isn't intentional.

Bullshit: not being "intentional" vs. simply not giving a fuck (WHAT!) ...I'll give you a Mulligan for not thinking that through

If for no other reason than spilling chemicals cost money. Both in product lost and the required clean up.

Again; yeah you mean like when Lube Stop weighed the cost of responsible oil disposal vs. dumping oil down the drain vs the EPA fine ...conclusion: dumping oil into the water was the cheaper alternative...

Despite all of this, BP, with their production of energy does much more good than bad.

No, the net benefit is temporary .... same goes for coal production and over fishing swordfish....but arguing with you on that (which you would loose) would take paragraphs convincing you (akin to me and Doer wasting our time educating you that Western civilizations conquest isn't a simple amalgamation of bigger white brains)
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
I'm a big fan of the FairTax, but I'm not a big fan of the flat tax. Although I think everyone should pay something in terms of income tax, even if it's just 1% for folks making under a certain amount, I think folks who earn higher income should also pay a higher rate. I also think we should look into reestablishing top marginal rates of 90% or better like we used to have for incomes over 20 million dollars annually or something. That is effectively a top marginal rate and would be the only one, if I had control, that had any deductions, credits, exclusions or any thing besides a percentage.

Basically, I'm in favor of drastically simplifying the tax code. Eliminate all deductions, credits and the like, and have it simply an income number and a percentage.

Doing the research I have into our tax system, Americans spend billions upon billions of dollars every year, and countless hours they can never get back, just trying to figure out what they owe.

On top of all that, those same laws that make it so complicated, also provide numerous loopholes for the wealthy to exploit.

We could do a lot just but cutting the fat.

For someone who vocally espouses favor for the Democrats, you sure sound like a Republican.
The elimination of income tax and the implementation of a version of VAT is the most fair.
 
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