Manipulatin' her ...

stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Small update of the ' manipulated '...

3050841.jpg3050842.jpg3050843.jpg3050844.jpg


I regret not having her in a bigger pot ( only 10 liters = ~2 gal)...

I'm sticking religiously to the " White and Red " side ...

My next lamp will be made to 'stay' for long time ...

I'm going to use some Cree CXA cobs ,at 5000° K and at 3000° K .

These babies :
http://www.led-tech.de/en/High-Power-LEDs-Osram/Osram-Modules/12-x-OSRAM-Oslon-SSL-80-red-on-round-pcb-LT-2035_206_209.html

and couple of these babies :

http://www.rapidled.com/total-spectrum-violet-uv-led/

And that's that ....

Neutral & Warm white from cobs as the 'core' ....( in two separate -dimmable-channels )
The super thick-flower boosters Oslon SSL 80 LHCP7P-2T3T (3T) ( I wish it was the 4T,but ... ),in another channel...
And the 1-2 Violets for that extra 'something' ...Even if only more aroma and taste.( <== tested and proven for me,by me ! )

No more than 250-300 Watt (at plug ) all together with drivers,fans,etc

...

[video=youtube;_AdFvJ9iUDQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AdFvJ9iUDQ[/video]
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Something like this maybe ...
new.jpg

Now ....
That's going to take some time and money...
I'm already smelling the solder flux ....
He-he-he...
:weed:
 
Positivity

Positivity

Well-Known Member
I've been eyeing out that osram red array also....it's a nice one. I think that color combo will be very close to ideal. My only question is if a 50/50 split of 630/660 will do better than all 660. All I know is my herb has finally reached sticky, stinky, goo ball status.

Nice structure on that girl..
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
lax123 said:
Hi,

what do you think about this :smile:

ur study: http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/pub__4124704.pdf
and this one:
http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/poster/pub__2576523.pdf

cites:




conclusion:

yellowish hps? umols, umols, umols, its only size that matters :wink:
wether 630 or 660 matters for photomorphological protein cascading effects.
The reason why blue is not good for flowering.
Click to expand...

Well..
( better late than never...)

Blue is not good for flowering ,but still is needed ..
I do not really think that is just umols...
I really trust that spectral distribution plays a huge role ...

And there is probably a photomorphogenic effect ( during flowering ) originating/caused from yellow wls ...
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
lax123 said:
There r 2 important parts:
1. Photosynthesis - like Food
2. Photomorphogenesis -like Hormones

Look at the diagramms I overlayed, relative quantum yield vs wavelength combined with hps spectrum.
(Diagramm used for overlay: http://envsupport.licor.com/docs/TechNote126.pdf
Figure1, C. leaf yield relative to quantum of energy absorbed, McCree.)

For Photosynthesis, according to YPF yellow e.g. 585 is just as good as 660nm, or even better.
View attachment 3011633
I dont get why "yellow" is puzzling you, to me it seems pretty obvious.

For phototsynthesis, the studies i cited earlier even found that ppf is even a better indicator then ypf, so it matters even less wether its 660 or 590 or something else.
As long it does not interfer with photomorphogenesis, e.g. that blue works similar to a hormone interfering with proper flowering.

So I like the idea of taking the cheap ass chinese 100W warmwhite arrays for 9$ a piece, and drive them @ 20W for efficiency and be happy :-)
I made some light measurments with 30W arrays.
I measured the relative lightoutput in mA by using a solar cell and multimeter, Vf and mA for the arrays and then measured at different currents. 30W arrays @30W, @20W, @15W etc.
The gain by underdriving those arrays seemed insane, considering e.g. a 100W array is just 9$. Like 20% more light per Watt @15W vs 30W. I guess using a 100W array @ 15W will be even much more exciting.

Where am I wrong?

I wonder does anyone have more info for those generic chinese arrays?
Like a spectrum or something like that?
Click to expand...
Yellow is puzzling me ,about it's photomorphogenic effects during flowering.
I'm hard guessing that yellow wls have something to do with flowering rate / quantity of flowers being made .
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Positivity said:
I've been eyeing out that osram red array also....it's a nice one. I think that color combo will be very close to ideal. My only question is if a 50/50 split of 630/660 will do better than all 660. All I know is my herb has finally reached sticky, stinky, goo ball status.

Nice structure on that girl..
Click to expand...
I think that a split 630/660 split would work fine...
( Why not ? )
Like these ones :
http://www.led-tech.de/en/High-Power-LEDs-Osram/Osram-Modules/12-x-OSRAM-Oslon-SSL-80-red-on-round-pcb-LT-2034_206_209.html

Thing is,the limits of space and power .
There's not enough room for 625-630 reds ..( Warm whites have plenty of these reds ,anyhow.. )

I saw your work ...Just great sticky, stinky, goo ball buds...
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Chronikool said:
So have you found out where you went wrong...? :-P

Hahaha...nah lookz 'smashing good fun' there bruv. :)



Hmmmm....eerily similar...but a different approach....great mindz aye...? :D

View attachment 3014131
Click to expand...
Who's design is that ?

The only thing I'd change is the FR leds..
I would not use/have them ....

In veg FR causes uncontrollable stretching ,while in flowering it speeds up the maturing.
With a serious (negative )impact in yield quantity.
 
Chronikool

Chronikool

Well-Known Member
Scotch089

Scotch089

Well-Known Member
Stardust I am glad you are doing well and being safe! Always around, am I right? ;)

What wavelength have you found to kickstart aroma with your Violet/Blues? Supra had also mentioned this and I have seen a difference in trichs in the past.. but mine a controlled study? PPFFFFFFT... no.

And thank you for the headsup in Maturity from FR (is 730 considered far red, or deep red? I am always along to learn) I am in the midst of timing out how long I want to run 730's and 660's, and this thread is definitely making me step back and take a new direction on my train of thought.

Let me know what you think, good stuff over here, be safe!
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Scotch089 said:
Stardust I am glad you are doing well and being safe! Always around, am I right? ;)

What wavelength have you found to kickstart aroma with your Violet/Blues? Supra had also mentioned this and I have seen a difference in trichs in the past.. but mine a controlled study? PPFFFFFFT... no.

And thank you for the headsup in Maturity from FR (is 730 considered far red, or deep red? I am always along to learn) I am in the midst of timing out how long I want to run 730's and 660's, and this thread is definitely making me step back and take a new direction on my train of thought.

Let me know what you think, good stuff over here, be safe!
Click to expand...

Definately the UVA/violet ,ranging from ~360 nm up to ~420 nm,will add aroma and taste...
About the trichs...Well ,it is an oxidising range of E/M radiation.
It generates free radical oxygen ions...
So...
Probably that range ,has something to do with potency..
Most probably not by increasing cannabinoid content per trichome ,
but by increasing density of trichomes (number of trichomes per given plant matter surface ).

The range's photomorphogenic effects are similar to that of blue wls ( 430-470 nm ).
Protein production, increased stomatal conductance, lateral rooting,increased nitrogen/magnesium/sulphur assimilation ,etc ..

Deep reds are from ~640 nm up to 700 nm .
> 700 nm is considered as NIR ( Near Infra Red ),up to ~ 1000 nm ( 1 micrometer )

Monochromatic Leds more than ~700 nm ,will negatively impact our beloved plant ,both during veg and flower.
At least if used the same way ,as the rest of leds ....
In some other ways it can be beneficial ...
But way complex ,to practise those 'techniques' ...



[video=youtube;spnjDMGcUCA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spnjDMGcUCA[/video]
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Mj is a weed.
A wild weed.
It is not a "sensitive " plant.
It adapts to a new environment ,within few generations.
It naturally grows between ~45° North to ~45° South latitude...
A weed.

Hmm...
It adapts easily to a new environment...
So it must adapt to 'new' lighting environments pretty easily....

Maybe the ...' secret ' ...is to grow few generations of mj under leds ...
After all ,most of commercial seeds are produced from plants grown in greenhouses aided with HPS / MH .

Yellow is still troubling me ...
But I think
I've found a place to start ...

Differences between the Quantum and the Actual Plant Response for Common Radiation sources

 Because the spectral output for electric lamps is reasonably constant, the ratio of the constant photon response (quantum or PPF response) to actual plant response can be calculated from the average quantum efficiency curve (from McCree, 1972a). This ratio is shown in Table 2. The differences among lamp types are surprisingly small. Similar calculations have been described previously (McCree, 1981).
An additional source of error is that all sensors that integrate photosynthetic radiation are imperfect. Barnes et al. (1993) analyzed the errors associated with commercial sensors designed to integrate photosynthetic radiation over a range of wavelengths.
The ratio in Table 2 some lamp types is not intuitively obvious so it is useful to plot the spectral output from the lamps (Figure 3) and plot this output with the average plant response curve (Figure 4).
TABLE 2. The spectral efficiency of six electric lamps and sunlight.
Lamp type Ratio
​
  • Low Pressure Sodium (LPS) .99
  • High Pressure Sodium (HPS) .95
  • Incandescent (INC) .95
  • Metal Halide (MH) .90
  • Cool White Fluorescent (CWF) .89
  • Red Light-Emitting Diode (LED) .89
  • Solar on a clear day .88

Spectral efficiency is defined as the ratio of the lamp spectral output multiplied by McCree's quantum efficiency weighting factors, divided by the number of photons between 400 and 700 nm. Examples are given in Figure 4. The ratio for solar radiation is not a constant (see Figure 3). The LED had a peak output of 660 nm. LED's with peak outputs at shorter wavelengths wouldhave greater spectral efficiency, e.g. a peak output at 610 nm would result in an efficiency close to 1.0.


Click to expand...

But ......

PLANT GROWTH IN SOME SPECIES IS SURPRISINGLY LITTLE AFFECTED BY LIGHT QUALITY


Although photosynthesis may not be affected by light quality in short-term studies, the spectral quality from some lamps decreases chlorophyll concentration and alters phytochrome status, which can be detrimental to plant growth in long-term studies. The monochromatic radiation from low-pressure sodium lamps can significantly reduce chlorophyll and plant growth in several dicotyledonous species, for example.


Effect of spectral quality of wheat growth and yield


Not all species are sensitive to spectral quality, however. Low-pressure sodium lamps did not decrease the growth and yield of wheat compared to HPS and MH lamps (Table 3), a finding we recently confirmed. The plants under the low pressure sodium lamps of course did not look green, but the apparent difference in green color disappeared when the plants were removed and placed together in full spectrum light. Studies with wheat grown under red LED's also indicate that chlorophyll synthesis, photosynthesis, growth, and yield of wheat (Triticum aestivum) are insensitive to spectral quality.
Click to expand...


http://biology.mcgill.ca/phytotron/lightwkshp1994/1.5 Bugbee/Bugbee text.htm



Why I'm thinking that our beloved wild weed really likes ...everything that is given ?
The more the better ...
The ' richer ' the better ....

And if this renown weed gets to 'learn' to grow,beneath a really rich artificial LED lighting ?
With lots of 'everything ' in the right time ?

Hm...

Few generations under leds ...

Under the 'customisable' 'full spectrum ' light , that only leds can provide ...

Hm..
Interesting ...

Light Modified Organisms.

...
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
By now it has came to my poor understanding ,that mj loves light ....
Lots of light ...
And as 'rich' -' full' as possible...

But ...

BUT !

The photosynthetic active range that mj uses extends from ~360 nm up to 700 nm ...
So far so good ...
As a weed it can turn light into chemical energy
(thus carbonhydrates,thus starch,lignin,cellulose,etc ),
using all the wls included in the above range.
So far,so good ...
The richer ,the better ...

And ,at this point it becomes really complicated ...
The same light used as energy ,is used as a 'stimuli ' ,a 'signal' ,
for 'shaping' the actual physical and chemical 'profile' of the plant...
It is called photomorphogenesis ....

By now,as a humble stupid human,I've came to understand ,
that every single wl plays a photomorphogenic role...
And the range is bigger ... ~300nm up to ~ 750 nm ...
( Maybe even more ...None knows that yet ... )

And can change the whole ..subject (mj ), in a rather drastic way ...

And that's why I insist that spectrum really matters for mj...

Ok,it is a weed...
It can ,(really ) grow with ...the most awkward light ...
( In the 70's they used to grow them with ...HQIs ..Mercury Vapors !!! )

Still ..

I like the photomorphogenic effects of 660 nm deep red light to mj ...

During vegging ,with enough blue wls ( 20-25% ) it shapes a compact ,stocky plant...
With lots of dense branching and flowering sites ( 'flower-pits' ,we call 'em here )...
And the most important ...Thin-fingered relatively small leaves ...Light can pass through easily...
Like the ones mj gets ,when grown outdoors , the whole day under direct sunlight..

Later in flowering ,the buds get really thick and 'swollen'...
With pretty high bud-to-leaf ratio...
Click to expand...
EDIT : And an advice ...If any wants to think of it ...STAY AWAY FROM ANY FR LED !!!
FR light ,it does not suit the indoor cultivation of mj ..
Not if used the 'conventional' way ...

[video=youtube;MASqWqf09V8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MASqWqf09V8[/video]
 
Positivity

Positivity

Well-Known Member
stardustsailor said:
I think that a split 630/660 split would work fine...
( Why not ? )
Like these ones :
http://www.led-tech.de/en/High-Power-LEDs-Osram/Osram-Modules/12-x-OSRAM-Oslon-SSL-80-red-on-round-pcb-LT-2034_206_209.html

Thing is,the limits of space and power .
There's not enough room for 625-630 reds ..( Warm whites have plenty of these reds ,anyhow.. )
Click to expand...
there is a limit of power in an area but still I think worthwhile to look in to. Just for example, the popular high end white panels for sale. They are using 630nm. Its possible that even though my warm white xmls show strongly in the 630nm, it could still benefit from more. I have a feeling deep red in the right proportion is probably the best. But I'd like to see it first before I make a final decision on that.

Just a simple process of elimination. I had questions on blues, far red, and deep red. Now I just have a few more dependent on the 630nm run. If 660nm turns out to be the sweet spot addition then the only question left I have will be how much. Start eliminating deep red until I reach a final amount that seems best.

Almost there. Nothing like doing it yourself to clear things up..
 
L

lax123

Well-Known Member
Hi,
SDS, do you have more input on that?
It adapts to a new environment ,within few generations.
Click to expand...
How?
Do you mean genetically adapt?
From my understanding I would not know how, as i think that would require them to be heavily mutating and also bequeathing those mutations to the next generation.
I think thats highly unprobable, as plants are no haploid bacteria.
Other thing is adaption via epigenetics, -genes get triggered or blocked caused by environmental changes, e.g. light circumstances.
But this would be happening within generation 1.

I think concluding "things" gets quite difficult.
I just looked at the heliospectra link you gave:
The spectrum for the conventional growth lamp, HPS,
fits poorly with the action spectrum (Fig 2C). We have
calculated that 75% of the light produced not used in
photosynthesis and is therefore wasted.
Table 1. Electrical power used by the lamps.
HB-LED 111W 57kWh
White LED 32W 15kWh
HPS 403W 206kWh
Click to expand...
So they compare their custom spectrum of 111W to 32W of white led and then say "look our spectrum yielded much more"?
I mean i posted the diagramm hps spectrum vs quantum yield, it clearly showed that hps fits very nicly withing mccree curve, which is the average of like 30 landplants.
And those helios guys put out info telling you the complete opposite.
The plant led selling companies seem to really trying hard to get things not done or are they.


And that's why I insist that spectrum really matters for mj..
Click to expand...
I guess you know the study where they conclude that in "strong white light" added green light can even max out photosynthesis rate more than any additional added red light.
As leaf absorbtion rate for red light is so high, it has the downside that it also gets much faster saturated with it, thats where other wls come into play.
So even the seemingly simple task of just feeding the plant with light isnt just that simple.

I think maxing out photosynthesisrate within a fixed wattage of used power could be more important than minor photomorphogenetical alterations, e.g. that effective intracanopy lightning could have more of an effect then using wether 660 or 630nm.


I wonder how you guys are doing your experimenting e.g. with 660nm.
Do you have side by side comparisons, or have you grown those plants from the same mother for several times and notice the differences by experience?
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
If you experiment with LPS, I'd love to see the results. I had the same exact idea about a year or 2 ago. Maybe you got the idea from me?

Here's my theory on the mysterious yellow:

There are 2 ways to think about it.

1) Yellow penetrates, and absorbs decently. Yellow alone causes %Pfr to be decently high. Red absorbs terrifically, and thus has terrible penetration. Red alone causes %Pfr to max out. This means red feeds the top of your plants while yellow feeds the middle. Furthermore, leaves lower down the plant will only see the yellows and far-reds, with all the reds filtered out already. This will cause %Pfr to converge lower than canopy height growth and thus calibrates shade avoidance effect somewhat.

2) What new growth sees as "yellow", the same %Pfr can be obtained with a combination of 660nm and 730nm for 1 layer of growth. Think of how with human vision, you can make yellow from red and green. The same holds true with "phytochrome vision", but this only works for one layer of growth (since the next layer down in the red+far red subjects would have all the red light removed already).

For example, if you have one expanding leaf with LPS light shining on it, you could obtain the same %Pfr that leaf sees using a combination of 660nm and 730nm that gets it to converge at the same %Pfr.

stardustsailor said:
Yellow is still troubling me ...


...
Click to expand...
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Red is like searing a steak while yellow is like microwaving it.

You want a nice crust, but also evenly cooked inside. (No, i don't microwave steak...)
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Positivity said:
there is a limit of power in an area but still I think worthwhile to look in to. Just for example, the popular high end white panels for sale. They are using 630nm. Its possible that even though my warm white xmls show strongly in the 630nm, it could still benefit from more. I have a feeling deep red in the right proportion is probably the best. But I'd like to see it first before I make a final decision on that.

Just a simple process of elimination. I had questions on blues, far red, and deep red. Now I just have a few more dependent on the 630nm run. If 660nm turns out to be the sweet spot addition then the only question left I have will be how much. Start eliminating deep red until I reach a final amount that seems best.

Almost there. Nothing like doing it yourself to clear things up..
Click to expand...
Well,I 've nothing to add here ..
I agree with everything you 've stated .

Just some notes :

-Energy-wise : 630 red photons ( 'vibrating quantum fields', to be up to date with modern physics theories ) 'carry' more energy than 660 nm ones .
-Population : 660 nm photons are more than 630 nm ones,for the same given power .
-PS systems: 630 nm 'favors' PS II and Chb ,660 nm 'favors' PS I and ChA .
-660 gets more easily 'absorbed ' ,but 630 nm has higher RQE .
-Both seem to work really fine ...
-630 nm has given me plants ,somewhat with lower bud to leaf ratio ,than 660 nm.(most, if not all of the 'red' dedicated experimental grows )
 
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