Manipulatin' her ...

[stardustsailor]

And a lil' feast for the ears ....

[video=youtube;hVfYVNALIS0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVfYVNALIS0[/video]

 

[stardustsailor]

Interesting sds. Tri phosphor huh? Read a bit about it, seems like a newer tech utilizing uv leds as a base. Available?

Well...
There are some indications that someone is already using this tech ...
Check it out ...
...



http://www.led-professional.com/products/leds_led_modules/soraa-introduces-gan-on-gantm-gen3-leds-for-unmatched-efficiency-and-brightness-full-visible-spectrum-color-and-whiteness-rendering


"...And with a proprietary three-phosphor combination, Soraa’s Gen3 LED emits full-visible-spectrum light (all the colors of the rainbow, including violet), which excites optical brightening agents and perfectly renders whiteness as well as colors. ...."


http://www.soraa.com/technology/quality


(...)
Perfect Whites


An often overlooked characteristic of light sources is their ability to render white, arguably as important as color rendering. Soraa’s GaN on GaN technology provides a full-spectrum light source, with continuous emission from violet through deep red. The violet emission properly excites the fluorescing agents present in fabrics and fibers and renders white materials properly, just like they were designed for under natural light sources such as incandescence and sunlight.

 

[stardustsailor]

[h=2]Perfect Spectrum Light[/h] Conventional LEDs use a blue emitter pumping two phosphors to make white light. The resulting spectrum does not exactly match the black body curve for visible light – it has a high blue spike and is missing important parts of the spectrum in violet and cyan. These LEDs can also have values either above or below the black body curve, making their light greener or pinker. GaN on GaN enables Soraa’s LEDs to use a violet LED emitter pumping three phosphors, thus achieving a closer match to the black body curve, and delivering a perfectly balanced full-visible-spectrum light closest to daylight - in fact even better, as it has no ultraviolet or infrared emission.

( Nope ...It's not exactly like that ..
Not everything stands for 100% truth ,to what they say and show...
No Far red ? Even the 80 CRI leds do emmit some...)

 

[Lewismccage]

Interesting sds. Tri phosphor huh? Read a bit about it, seems like a newer tech utilizing uv leds as a base. Available?

yes i think they use UV chips or 460nm blue and 660nm red underneath the phosphor layer, i have the 100w version, basically white light with pink infused, vegged as good as anything else i have tried, the question of can it flower effectively i will find out in about 4-weeks and update you all as a matter of importance. but at £30+free shipping it was a steal, i power it via buck boost and laptop power supplies which as you know are cheap as chips on ebay, precision constant current and voltage is better than single constant current driver, no variatons and i can dim it accordingly. i drive it at 93w and the heatsink is "arctic alpine 11 plus" CPU cooler, does a fine job of keeping chip cool EVEN AT NEAR FULL POWER. with a total of just over £40 for 100 actual watts its a bargain, i often spend £40 just on taking the kids to cinema or swimming so it basically sells itself. fingers crossed for dense buds, i previous;y used 150w HPS, and ive been told this chip should compete with that, not sure as 150w sodium can go far with our beloved plant..

best regards..lewis m..

 

[Lewismccage]

ASTIR VERY INTERESTING, the designs have proven themselves, proven to be more than adequate though surprisingly to me regardless of best binning type and eventual quality of diodes, seen a few different spec's of ASTIR, more red's, more NW, WW. ASTIR to me was the most glaringly clear proof of a big shift to using almost exclusively simplistic full range "full spectrum" K- temperature-white LED's, another in a line of fascinating and often clearly succesful LED/WHITE LED grower experiment's.. last year i wondered how 1-3w warm and cool white chips ripped out of GU10/MR16 bulbs would perform mass concentrated or mixed with similar RED:BLUE LED 2-3W grow spotlights diodes. done exactly that by buying 25 or such bulbs on ebay auction, over-zelous chinese advertising, 9-12w so-called "3x3w epistar chips" at mostly 2900k-3500k but healthy amount of cold/bright white 5500k-7000k, still have them strewn in a drawer somewhere and now practically obsolete to me now as i was too hasty since i then became interested in bigger diodes, easier heat management and more compact size. CREE 30-50w xpg-g2 to me are best high wattage single pint-source of light, then mix 10-50w red/blue 8:1 multichips.
basically now i think if its 1-2 plants, small minimal, but dense results desired, single point-source light will do good enough, technology is travelling fast, red:blue, then tri-colour UFO's, then 7-11 spectrum panels, more UV+IR introduced, then "KESSIL" type colour-mixing technology densely packed LED multichips and now "special phosphor" coated blue and red chips to manipulate bright pink/white LED light that apparently covers the whole spectrum 380-840nm.. its an enjoyable obsession, an obsession because LED lighting tec and plant growing are the epitome of life/light/consumation, with the added rare feeling of community that comes with enjoying and fighting the virtues of our fravorite plant, people are being turned on poeple, even my restrained old aunts and various other famuly/friends can see how much more benign, exotic, and almost inherently "righteous" cannabis is, hollywood teases them with it even in stuffy old england, they are realising that there are greater enemies than some mothers son getting stoned with his mates at university.. AN ENJOYABLE OBSESSION THAT FOLLOWS A CLOSE SECOND AFTER "FAMILY" of course!..


LEWIS..

 

[stardustsailor]

Here they study mainly the blue part of white leds ,in greenies and leafies ...
http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/pub__4124704.pdf

Mj is not a green leafy vegetable ..
It is a flowering bush ....
it differs ...
I trust that CW leds have more blue than needed and less green/yellow than needed ..

 

[lax123]

Hi,

what do you think about this

ur study: http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/pub__4124704.pdf
and this one:
http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/poster/pub__2576523.pdf

cites:

Overall, PPF better predicted the photosynthetic efficiency
of each light source than YPF.

Our results indicate that YPF is poorly correlated with photosynthetic efficiency
(Fig. 8A). Furthermore, addition of green light to a red and blue light source at a
constant PPF increased growth as light intensity increased

conclusion:

In the 'older days' ...
I remember some people ,
mentioning the -almost monochromatic yellow- LPS light bulbs ,
as the 'ultimate' added "flowering boost" light

The good results from growing only with simple 3000K WW leds ..
A blue and a yellow peak ...

yellowish hps? umols, umols, umols, its only size that matters
wether 630 or 660 matters for photomorphological protein cascading effects.
The reason why blue is not good for flowering.

 

[caretak3r]

yes i think they use UV chips or 460nm blue and 660nm red underneath the phosphor layer, i have the 100w version, basically white light with pink infused, vegged as good as anything else i have tried, the question of can it flower effectively i will find out in about 4-weeks and update you all as a matter of importance. but at £30+free shipping it was a steal, i power it via buck boost and laptop power supplies which as you know are cheap as chips on ebay, precision constant current and voltage is better than single constant current driver, no variatons and i can dim it accordingly. i drive it at 93w and the heatsink is "arctic alpine 11 plus" CPU cooler, does a fine job of keeping chip cool EVEN AT NEAR FULL POWER. with a total of just over £40 for 100 actual watts its a bargain, i often spend £40 just on taking the kids to cinema or swimming so it basically sells itself. fingers crossed for dense buds, i previous;y used 150w HPS, and ive been told this chip should compete with that, not sure as 150w sodium can go far with our beloved plant..

best regards..lewis m..

can you link to the buck you're using?

 

[anomuumi]

There is only so much surface area to saturate, but if you go deeper... Intensity has everything to do with the usable spectra..

Let me just leave these here too.

http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/155/1/108.full

Leaf Functional Anatomy in Relation to Photosynthesis ...For efficient use of the light energy, light needs to be delivered to all the chloroplasts distributed along the cell surfaces throughout the leaf. Leaves, therefore, have to fulfill two contrasting requirements: to absorb much light, and to deliver light to all the chloroplasts. Red and blue light is largely absorbed by chloroplasts located near the illuminated surface of the leaf, because chlorophylls preferentially absorb these wavelengths. Light penetrating deeper inside the leaf is mostly green. Chlorophylls are less efficient in absorbing green light. However, multiple scattering increases the path length of light such that leaves absorb 80% of the green light incident on the leaves...

http://pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/50/4/684.full

Green Light Drives Leaf Photosynthesis More Efficiently than Red Light in Strong White Light: Revisiting the Enigmatic Question of Why Leaves are Green ...However, many spectra of absorptance (the absolute value of light absorption) measured with integrating spheres have shown clearly that ordinary, green leaves of land plants absorb a substantial fraction of green light (McCree 1972, Inada 1976, Gates 1980). It is also known that green light, once absorbed by the leaves, drives photosynthesis with high efficiency (Björkmann 1968, Balegh and Biddulph 1970, McCree 1972, Inada 1976). On an absorbed quantum basis, the efficiency or photosynthetic quantum yield of green light is comparable with that of red light, and greater than that of blue light. The difference between the quantum yields of green and blue light is particularly large in woody plants grown outdoors in high light. .. ..Namely, red light is more effective than green light in white light at low PPFDs, but as PPFD increases, light energy absorbed by the uppermost chloroplasts tends to be dissipated as heat, while penetrating green light increases photosynthesis by exciting chloroplasts located deep in the mesophyll. Thus, for leaves, it could be adaptive to use chlorophylls as photosynthetic pigments, because, by having chlorophyll with a ‘green window’ the leaves are able to maintain high quantum yields for the whole leaf in both weak and strong light conditions.

http://www.biology.usu.edu/files/uploads/aUndergrad Info/Undergrad Research/spring_2013_undergrad_posters/Poster_-_Kevin_Cope.pdf

 

[Gaius]

Green Light Drives Leaf Photosynthesis More Efficiently than Red Light in Strong White Light: Revisiting the Enigmatic Question of Why Leaves are Green ...However, many spectra of absorptance (the absolute value of light absorption) measured with integrating spheres have shown clearly that ordinary, green leaves of land plants absorb a substantial fraction of green light (McCree 1972, Inada 1976, Gates 1980). It is also known that green light, once absorbed by the leaves, drives photosynthesis with high efficiency (Björkmann 1968, Balegh and Biddulph 1970, McCree 1972, Inada 1976). On an absorbed quantum basis, the efficiency or photosynthetic quantum yield of green light is comparable with that of red light, and greater than that of blue light. The difference between the quantum yields of green and blue light is particularly large in woody plants grown outdoors in high light. .. ..Namely, red light is more effective than green light in white light at low PPFDs, but as PPFD increases, light energy absorbed by the uppermost chloroplasts tends to be dissipated as heat, while penetrating green light increases photosynthesis by exciting chloroplasts located deep in the mesophyll. Thus, for leaves, it could be adaptive to use chlorophylls as photosynthetic pigments, because, by having chlorophyll with a ‘green window’ the leaves are able to maintain high quantum yields for the whole leaf in both weak and strong light conditions.

So would this mean that all these Green-gaps you often see in LEDs might actually be a bad thing? If so, then this really speaks well for the full-spectrum camp.

 

[anomuumi]

This is a very complex subject and B/R lights work surprisingly well, especially in limited circumstances of micro growing. But yes I think, when going for the best quality and unlimited resources, I think B/R lights suffer. That was not any news tho, was it?

edit:

Just wanted to add that before these new COBs and XM-L2s we did not have white leds that could outcompete HID efficacy. That and the old NASA research prolly led to most of the first experimental growers to use only R/B. Nowadays there is no reason not to use efficient whites for growing!

 

[ak84]

Some thoughts about yellow light...

Something has to be there ...
Don't know what,though...

Firstly,there are a lot of 'indications' ...
The HPS ...The flowers being made ,under loads of it's yellow light ...

In the 'older days' ...
I remember some people ,
mentioning the -almost monochromatic yellow- LPS light bulbs ,
as the 'ultimate' added "flowering boost" light .

The good results from growing only with simple 3000K WW leds ..
A blue and a yellow peak ...

Secondly,the yellow light ,the insects and the flowering mechanisms of plants ...
There has to be a connection ..
Only ..I just can't figure it out ...

Something is there ...
But then again...

I'm "saganizing " ...

Weird thing though..
The plants use the part of E/M radiation ,that our vision can sense as 'light' ...
More or less ... 400-700 we see ,~360-730 the plants need/use...
So..The insects can't just have been 'left out' from the 'equation' ,can they ?

Every wavelength,every 'color' play it's role,somehow...
We can't 'flourish' in a black 'n' white world..
Plant's can't either in a red'n' blue world ..

Now,that was poetic,wasn't it ?

Good sh!t the ledborne ...

The following is a simple colour wheel from wikipedia. These are complementary colours, opposites "fit" together.




The pure yellow that you mention happens to fall in the lowest spectrum that cannabis (and some basil and some lettuces) leaves can be seen. I guess yellow is also usable by the plant, it's just not a center-stage requirement and more of a healthy addition to the plants photosynthesis needs.

IDK, I just wanted to pimp the colour wheel because I found it important earlier today.

 

[churchhaze]

I don't think color theory makes sense when used for growing or anything not meant to be seen by animals.

"Color" is concept that the human brain conceives and thus color theory is only about how the brain interprets certain pigments being stimulated.

If there was a color wheel for plants, it would look totally different (probably based on the gradient of Pfr/Pr absorption)

The following is a simple colour wheel from wikipedia. These are complementary colours, opposites "fit" together.


View attachment 3011405View attachment 3011405

The pure yellow that you mention happens to fall in the lowest spectrum that cannabis (and some basil and some lettuces) leaves can be seen. I guess yellow is also usable by the plant, it's just not a center-stage requirement and more of a healthy addition to the plants photosynthesis needs.

IDK, I just wanted to pimp the colour wheel because I found it important earlier today.

 

[lax123]

There r 2 important parts:
1. Photosynthesis - like Food
2. Photomorphogenesis -like Hormones

Look at the diagramms I overlayed, relative quantum yield vs wavelength combined with hps spectrum.
(Diagramm used for overlay: http://envsupport.licor.com/docs/TechNote126.pdf
Figure1, C. leaf yield relative to quantum of energy absorbed, McCree.)

For Photosynthesis, according to YPF yellow e.g. 585 is just as good as 660nm, or even better.

I dont get why "yellow" is puzzling you, to me it seems pretty obvious.

For phototsynthesis, the studies i cited earlier even found that ppf is even a better indicator then ypf, so it matters even less wether its 660 or 590 or something else.
As long it does not interfer with photomorphogenesis, e.g. that blue works similar to a hormone interfering with proper flowering.

So I like the idea of taking the cheap ass chinese 100W warmwhite arrays for 9$ a piece, and drive them @ 20W for efficiency and be happy
I made some light measurments with 30W arrays.
I measured the relative lightoutput in mA by using a solar cell and multimeter, Vf and mA for the arrays and then measured at different currents. 30W arrays @30W, @20W, @15W etc.
The gain by underdriving those arrays seemed insane, considering e.g. a 100W array is just 9$. Like 20% more light per Watt @15W vs 30W. I guess using a 100W array @ 15W will be even much more exciting.

Where am I wrong?

I wonder does anyone have more info for those generic chinese arrays?
Like a spectrum or something like that?

 

[lax123]

i figured that
Haha, no just kidding

 

[Lewismccage]

Yes, here it is http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131111441415?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

another type I use is this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-DC-Converter-QS-1212CCBA-80W-Power-Supply-Auto-Boost-Buck-80W-CC-CV-Charger-/251457823628?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Other&hash=item3a8c0de38c

you can find them and relevant power supplies on auction like I did, very cheap and easily to replace if failure occurs, the dual CC and CV regulation is basically manual dimming also, so I can drive my chips at 30-100%, currently I drive my 100w to 93w.

Regards Lewis..

 

[Lewismccage]

Hi, I used these at first because they were so damn cheap http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-20-30-50W-LED-High-Power-Light-Lamp-Chip-Power-Supply-Driver-Cool-Warm-White-/261262267337?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Lighting_Parts&var=&hash=item3cd471d3c9

nowI have looked at countless "spectral distribution" charts and although some designs are different warm white LED chips generally have this kind of spectral output http://www.ledsmagazine.com/content/dam/leds/migrated/objects/features/10/3/7/SIL_Fig4.gif

And this is another http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/sixteen/5wdesk1.gif

So usually plenty of red, lots of orange, yellow and green. But enough red to finish definitely, and believe it or not they do work and flower by themselves, however much "human viewing green" they contain, apparently chinese warm are more about red wavelength, and European made are more about CRI. Also by mixing these cheap-arsed led chips with 30w warm white CFL is even better and adds some heat to an otherwise cool grow room, warm is all you need to grow in my opinion, it has enough blue to veg. Check out "cheapo 200w chinese grow" journal, it's a shame he fed that nasty tea to his girls but you can still see how good even generic warm whites will do the job.. For my garden of 1-2 plants I use warm white(usually cree 30-50w xpg2) and these multichips http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/100w-7-band-grow-led-chip_1572599889.html
lately I've also purchased another product that seems to combine the best of both http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291080114677?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

They come in 30-200w versions with Good prices, either one they are more than adequate.. Hope this helps.. Best regards Lewis..

 

[Lewismccage]

I have used these before... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-20-30-50W-LED-High-Power-Light-Lamp-Chip-Power-Supply-Driver-Cool-Warm-White-/261262267337?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Lighting_Parts&var=&hash=item3cd471d3c9

They veg plants excellently, obviously since it's a blue diode with YAG phosphor to replicate the whole spectrum. They are a dime a dozen, cheap as chips, bright as fuck with enough red to finish flowering, let's just say that it compares to a 200w CFL all day long..
best thing is that they are easy to replace, mixing red/blue chips will boost the effectiveness of them.
another great module is this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cree-XLamp-XPG2-XP-G2-50W-3000-3200K-Warm-White-4900LM-LED-Light-Lamp-1500mA-/201031872831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ece6ef13f
those cree's are better than generic chinese warms but seriously they are not miles better just "better"..

too many options these days, but COB's and multichips are becoming the next rage.

Best regards.. Lewis..

 

[Lewismccage]

Is it true that certain strains react best to only red:blue and others require that "full spectrum" to be optimum?.

Lewis..

 

[Lewismccage]

That study is interesting, it's going completely that way, for so long I was told religiously that red:blue is "all that is needed", even some bud-porn to prove it, but those statements weren't quite true, some strains can grow near optimum with just 2 wavelengths but most will reach better overall health/yield with more variety of blues and red and white to cover the rest.
is anybody still selling or buying tri-colour panels or UFO's?, just red blue and orange are now seen as almost universally un-sellable shit, 7-14 band panels with IR+UV dominate the market now..