Why So Many LED Haters?

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PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Well, they’re not without common sense, but hps is super inefficient and requires a considerable investment in cooling.

The very range where hps gets its’ juice is the ~460- 630 range. This is the range that most led manufacturers have avoided to this day.

The problem plaguing led began in the very beginning, as the manufacturing focus was on Red and Blue diodes. White diodes were in their infancy, and simply not ready for growing plants.

Alas, some brain trust wanting to exploit the indoor horticulture market at large, sold us on the idea that the best way to max chlorophyll A & B PAR peaks is using R/B monochromes. Sounded good on paper, and yes, many have grown lush looking buds with them, BUT, hps grows have consistently proven otherwise. My own 3+ yo ufo 90 (R/B) with a decent balance of spectrums never produced, even when supplemented with cfls/A19 leds or even side light supplement for my HOT5s!

Let me use a health analogy...

If someone is a meat and potatoes eater, no greens, no mineral supplements, they may look healthy and be strong for years, but eventually they will develop debilitating health issues like; muscle twitch/cramping, arthritis, cataracts, osteoporosis, gall bladder and liver failure, even cancer. The diminished cells (and sperm) predispose their offspring to those issues. The solution is to introduce the missing elements, micro-nutrients, or in our case, the missing spectrums

Sticking with food for a minute, we know that plants need essential micro-nutrients BEYOND NPK (the lack thereof is a big part of why vegetables lack flavor). Similarly, incorporating micro minerals is ESSENTIAL for mj to develop to its' fullest potential, and provide high quality (tasty) fruits, or in our case- buds

White Light is the only way to provide the important ‘micro spectrums’. Consider that micro-nutrients might need the missing spectrums to be fully utilized by the plant. Hmmm

Although many led manufacturers are beginning to add some white diodes, it's a joke, probably due to having a huge inventory of R/B diodes, and or, they convinced themselves that RB is all you need, or they are just that much cheaper than quality white diodes.

But, are white diodes ‘full spectrum’? Yes and No

The basic breakdown of white diodes is Cool White, Neutral White and Warm White. Most mj strains will get ample blue and red from today’s NW diodes, which have a nice amount of green, yellow and orange spectrums which are needed for optimum root and leaf development. A better hps if you will, as it incorporates blue

However, once buds set then more WW is needed to fatten up the fruit/buds.

Note that A 51s new panel is all white. As importantly (maybe more so) it has 3 switches, essential to maximize plant development at each stage
 

Myles117

Well-Known Member
its because we are insecure about our penises hahaha

for me, its a combination of misinformation clouding the facts and the fear of investing thousands to replace my HPS lamps and not getting the best LEDs for the job. Iv watched generations of LED growlights become little more than paperweights once the next gen comes around. i am simply afraid to mess with my success until the LED tech levels off and is clearly the way to go.
 

budbro18

Well-Known Member
Because sooooooo many shitty LED panels came out and still come out. People lie about watts vs par vs penetration.

I blame the manufacturers as well as the buyers who bought without research.

"our 400w led will equal a 1000w hps system" Not only is this a lie but the actual output of the panel is probably only 250-300w.

Then someone used to running 1000w hps lights go and buy a single expensive ass panel and find out they get NOTHING compared to a 1000w off their plants.

LEDs are pretty proven now a days and the only downside that is still around is penetration which is still being worked through.

So LEDs also get shit on by people who grow taller plants and dont understand that like with any change in lighting you need to change your style of growing.

Its like the "snake oil" rant of people claiming absolutely no additives do anything and that theyre all just water in a bottle.

This is believed because, like any business, nutrient/LED creators take advantage of new technology being "unproven" in an "illegal" subculture (even if its medical/rec its all federally legal thus slowing studies on our favorite plant) to make as much money as possible before they get found out.

So a combo of misinformation, misuse, and misdirection leads to LEDs not being taken seriously.
 

hornedfrog2000

Well-Known Member
My buddy is always bringing up LED lights. I tell him I don't have time to shuffle through all the BS and lies, and I never see any legit growers using comparison grows with LEDs. Proof is in the pudding. I want to see some grows that use LEDs and what brand they are using.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Go to the LED forums. Lots of good grows using Apache Tech and A 51, and a few eye openers using Cree household bulbs from Lowes + several guys doing DIYs

My buddy is always bringing up LED lights. I tell him I don't have time to shuffle through all the BS and lies, and I never see any legit growers using comparison grows with LEDs. Proof is in the pudding. I want to see some grows that use LEDs and what brand they are using.
 

budbro18

Well-Known Member
My buddy is always bringing up LED lights. I tell him I don't have time to shuffle through all the BS and lies, and I never see any legit growers using comparison grows with LEDs. Proof is in the pudding. I want to see some grows that use LEDs and what brand they are using.

hop on the link in my sig. Dog kush led grow journal.

Me and a handfull of "skilled" (wed all consider ourselves skilled) growers are growing using LEDs and comparing it to our old grows.

I had a 400w veg tent and a 600w flower tent. I replaced my 400w cmh with 305w LED panel and replaced my 600w hps with 610w of LED lights and am doing a comparison.

Im using a different strain but ive used a 600w hps since day one and that was over 5 years ago so i know the min and max capabilities of it and will be comparing that to my LED panels.
 

Jbone77

Well-Known Member
The haters are there because if the untruths being told. Look at the other thread you have going on the same subject, you have a guy saying he has an 88% power savings and his gpw doubled usind a 160 led over a 400 hid, he also says he added a month to his veg time. Now if you do a 30 day veg with a 400 hid and a 60 day veg with a 160 led, thats 192,000 watts of hid and 153,600 watts of led, not a huge savings. Saying your gpw has doubled when you double your veg time and go from growing naturally under hid to training a plant under led isnt even comporable and on top of that, he is still yielding less using led, .5 gpw with a 400 is 200 grams, double it to 1 gpw with a 160 led and you get 160 grams, so 40 less grams and double the veg time and quadruple your upfront costs to save $15 a month? Now comes the kicker, ventilation, dont led users use exhaust fans hooked up to carbon filters also? Great, you can use a 4" fan/filter and I use a 6" fan filter but thats not much difference. So by using led you are saving a few bucks a month, you get less yield per grow, can do fewer grows each year and quadruple start up cost to by equipment that will be old technology in 6 months, sounds good to me
 

cricket101

Active Member
The benefit of LED is not quantity. You get less quantity, but HIGHER QUALITY. My plants finish covered in trichomes. Plus LED runs cooler, which is a benefit in a hot environment like the southern United States.

Neither is better than the other, both have pros and cons. Each grower must decide what his needs are and meet them.

There is no perfect miracle light that does everything and grows your plants for you ^_^
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
^^^^^ if you have a perpetual grow. Then that is all irrelevant. If you run quality led. Yield will not suffer. Quality will go up and thc% will increase 3%-5% too. Led veg plants much faster with far less stretching than any hps. So that doesn't hold up either

just because a plant is taller( with larger node spacing) faster under hps /mh doesn't mean larger yield. Especially with all that stretch and less nodes

its about 600 watts of quality led to a 1000w hps in yield.
 

budbro18

Well-Known Member
Yeah my plants veg just as fast under the LEDs and im assuming theyll flower just as fast as my plants under hps. Yield and potency alogn with density will be the true test results for me. Take into account im using less than half as many fans as i usually do for my hps/cmh set up. Not saving much but every bit counts. Also, during summer i can only assume i will be using my AC less due to less heat.
 

Sunbiz1

Well-Known Member
hop on the link in my sig. Dog kush led grow journal.

Me and a handfull of "skilled" (wed all consider ourselves skilled) growers are growing using LEDs and comparing it to our old grows.

I had a 400w veg tent and a 600w flower tent. I replaced my 400w cmh with 305w LED panel and replaced my 600w hps with 610w of LED lights and am doing a comparison.

Im using a different strain but ive used a 600w hps since day one and that was over 5 years ago so i know the min and max capabilities of it and will be comparing that to my LED panels.
https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/748516-dog-kush-led-grow-journal-22.html#post10155122

Was this the result of using LED's on these plants since November?...if so that's why I'm not sold.

Plus the price of LED's is still off the charts.
 

vatito

Member
First I have to say that I came to this board because of the good led discussions here.

I am from Germany. And there is the problem that in the past at lot of led reports in the German boards never have been finished .

The mix of the amount of shitty panals added with the status of the technology before 2012 .that together made a lot of people sceptical. Including me.

So the time have nearly changed.

I came here because I see that the brake even is coming soon.

I am impressed by the Hans and diy panels. But they have to be in experienced hands.

The future will shine bright ;)

I am a noon on LEDs but I hope all the reading here and some advice's will help me out to be ready for the future!

Vato
 

budbro18

Well-Known Member
https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/748516-dog-kush-led-grow-journal-22.html#post10155122

Was this the result of using LED's on these plants since November?...if so that's why I'm not sold.

Plus the price of LED's is still off the charts.

That is due to me fucking them up. The holidays really messed me up and had me rushing all over the place and weather didnt help. OVer nuted the plants when they were young, had to transplant them early because when they germed they stretched out of the solo cups and fell over (under cfl) definitely messed up some roots and then i didnt realize my tap ph jumped to almost 8.2 in the winter and was watering/flushing them with what i thought was the 7.0 water that used to come out of the tap.

So i am the least good example out of my friends who are using them. Check out jigfresh or med scientist. Theyve had their shit together this year a lot better than me.

Jig is actually harvesting so true numbers will be in soon for him!

I fully agree on price, it will come down eventually though.

Also for seeds i like to let them veg a lil longer than clones usually go 6-8 weeks and my fuck ups have definitely set them back a solid 2-4 weeks haha. Unfortunate to say but i must admit ive been off my game this year.

Ill throw ya a few links of my other grows if you want to see (using hps) when things were a little less hectic. haha
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
Check all the grows in the led section. Almost everyone hitting that 1.5 gpw with better quality.

if you are scared then don't check them out. All the naysayers have zero experience with led. Most led growers started with hps and ran them for years before switching.

any one that talks shit on led. Has nothing to back up their claims. Just what they hear from the hydro shop salesman that just wants their money.
 

budbro18

Well-Known Member
Check all the grows in the led section. Almost everyone hitting that 1.5 gpw with better quality.

if you are scared then don't check them out. All the naysayers have zero experience with led. Most led growers started with hps and ran them for years before switching.

any one that talks shit on led. Has nothing to back up their claims. Just what they hear from the hydro shop salesman that just wants their money.

Exactly. The facts are there. Subcools tryin em out too. Hes a firm believer in hps which everyone should be because its tried and true but that doesnt mean leds dont work!

The haters are like Ken Ham. Refuse to accept even if irrefutable evidence was to be brought to light. Unlike Bill Nye who would love to be proven wrong.
 

Sunbiz1

Well-Known Member
That is due to me fucking them up. The holidays really messed me up and had me rushing all over the place and weather didnt help. OVer nuted the plants when they were young, had to transplant them early because when they germed they stretched out of the solo cups and fell over (under cfl) definitely messed up some roots and then i didnt realize my tap ph jumped to almost 8.2 in the winter and was watering/flushing them with what i thought was the 7.0 water that used to come out of the tap.

So i am the least good example out of my friends who are using them. Check out jigfresh or med scientist. Theyve had their shit together this year a lot better than me.

Jig is actually harvesting so true numbers will be in soon for him!

I fully agree on price, it will come down eventually though.

Also for seeds i like to let them veg a lil longer than clones usually go 6-8 weeks and my fuck ups have definitely set them back a solid 2-4 weeks haha. Unfortunate to say but i must admit ive been off my game this year.

Ill throw ya a few links of my other grows if you want to see (using hps) when things were a little less hectic. haha
Clicks non-existent like icon...:bigjoint:
 

hornedfrog2000

Well-Known Member
I would so rather use LED vs my HPS if I can get the same yield on even the same watts. Not getting so much heat is the single biggest thing imo.
 

budbro18

Well-Known Member
I would so rather use LED vs my HPS if I can get the same yield on even the same watts. Not getting so much heat is the single biggest thing imo.

Thats what you have to do with LEDs any person/company saying "400w led equals 100w hps" is lying.



I replaced my shit with almost exact watts i used before. i used to have a 250w hps for veg, then switched to cmh then got a 400w cmh. Now i have the 305w panel for veg which is less power but since its veg i can keep it inches away and the improved spectrum helps still get good growth with little to no heat.

Flowering is going to be the true test. I cant wait to see the results but my assumption is they will be at least equal to my 600w hps grow.


i remember id reroute duting in the winter so i could save money on heating my house by drawing the air off the cooltubes and throwin it into the rest of my house.

Now i almost need to heat the grow room when it hits -30 outside. hahaha. cant wait til summer either. Thatll be the true test of how cool they stay.

I usually had to run my ac at around 70-72 to get a constant 75-80 degrees in the tents/grow room.

Now im hopin (based on experiences im having with LEDs now) whatever temp i set it to it will sit at with not problem and temps all around the room will be the same.

Ill still need an AC but it will be using less power if everything goes right haha.
 

NorthofEngland

Well-Known Member
Well, they’re not without common sense, but hps is super inefficient and requires a considerable investment in cooling.

The very range where hps gets its’ juice is the ~460- 630 range. This is the range that most led manufacturers have avoided to this day.

The problem plaguing led began in the very beginning, as the manufacturing focus was on Red and Blue diodes. White diodes were in their infancy, and simply not ready for growing plants.

Alas, some brain trust wanting to exploit the indoor horticulture market at large, sold us on the idea that the best way to max chlorophyll A & B PAR peaks is using R/B monochromes. Sounded good on paper, and yes, many have grown lush looking buds with them, BUT, hps grows have consistently proven otherwise. My own 3+ yo ufo 90 (R/B) with a decent balance of spectrums never produced, even when supplemented with cfls/A19 leds or even side light supplement for my HOT5s!

Let me use a health analogy...

If someone is a meat and potatoes eater, no greens, no mineral supplements, they may look healthy and be strong for years, but eventually they will develop debilitating health issues like; muscle twitch/cramping, arthritis, cataracts, osteoporosis, gall bladder and liver failure, even cancer. The diminished cells (and sperm) predispose their offspring to those issues. The solution is to introduce the missing elements, micro-nutrients, or in our case, the missing spectrums

Sticking with food for a minute, we know that plants need essential micro-nutrients BEYOND NPK (the lack thereof is a big part of why vegetables lack flavor). Similarly, incorporating micro minerals is ESSENTIAL for mj to develop to its' fullest potential, and provide high quality (tasty) fruits, or in our case- buds

White Light is the only way to provide the important ‘micro spectrums’. Consider that micro-nutrients might need the missing spectrums to be fully utilized by the plant. Hmmm

Although many led manufacturers are beginning to add some white diodes, it's a joke, probably due to having a huge inventory of R/B diodes, and or, they convinced themselves that RB is all you need, or they are just that much cheaper than quality white diodes.

But, are white diodes ‘full spectrum’? Yes and No

The basic breakdown of white diodes is Cool White, Neutral White and Warm White. Most mj strains will get ample blue and red from today’s NW diodes, which have a nice amount of green, yellow and orange spectrums which are needed for optimum root and leaf development. A better hps if you will, as it incorporates blue

However, once buds set then more WW is needed to fatten up the fruit/buds.

Note that A 51s new panel is all white. As importantly (maybe more so) it has 3 switches, essential to maximize plant development at each stage
Eventually we'll ALL use LED's - They're the future. And that's a fact!
However, at the moment, two of the same model unit, made by the same manufacturer, can be very different lights.
There's a massive lack of standard information.
It seems that any claim can be made (for an LED's capabilities) without fear of consequences if such claims turn out to be false.

The LED wattage that is supposedly equivalent to an HPS is often massively exaggerated
(The statement that a 100w LED will happily replace a 600w HID is not uncommon).

SPOILT FOR CHOICE....
BLINDED BY SCIENCE....
and CONFUSED BY A THOUSAND NEW TECHNOLOGIES and TERMINOLOGIES....

There are SO MANY different styles and types of component parts!
1w diodes, 3w diodes, *5w diodes (apparently inefficient) and COB's

(*the MARS ii LED panels, which use 5w diodes, deliver less than 50% of their total power.
Example - The 1000w Model may have 200 x 5w diodes [total of 1000w] but it emits less that half that power.
AND SOME EXPERTS SAY THAT ATTEMPTING TO JUDGE AN LED's POWER FROM IT'S WATTAGE IS POINTLESS
THEY SAY THAT THE AMOUNT OF LUMENS IS WHAT MATERS....

The confusion around LED's is also being exploited by clever (and unscrupulous) sellers.
There is an LED panel for sale on several retail sites, from several different sellers, that has 225 diodes
(but each diode has a maximum power of 0.06667w)
30 of these individual diodes would have a maximum combined power of 2w (30 = TWO WATTS
So a total maximum power of 15w.
Considering that LED's generally emit 50 to 75% of their max power
this unit has a mere 7 to 11w.
Or an absolute waste of time.

Light spectrum (CCT) is measured in nanometres, rather than the kelvins that one becomes used to with HID's.
Instead of opting for ONE of JUST THREE CHOICES:
1 - a METAL HALIDE for Spring/Early Summer type 'Blue light' (6500k [Kelvins])
2 - HIGH PRESSURE SODIUM for Late Summer/Autumnal type 'Orange light' (2700k)
or
3 - a DUEL SPECTRUM for a combination of BOTH.
With LED's there are many different ''COLOUR BANDS' to choose from (or look out for).
Including COLD WHITE, WARM WHITE, BLUE, RED, HOT RED, ORANGE, INFRA-RED....
The possible combinations are infinite
The standards of quality vary massively
The reliability/honesty of manufacturers and sellers vary massively.

SLOWLY I AM ABSORBING MORE AND MORE INFORMATION ABOUT LED's.
ALTHOUGH I MOST CERTAINLY AM NOT A 'HATER' OF LED PANELS
I DO DISLIKE MUCH OF THE TRICKERY INVOLVED IN SELLING THEM.

BY AUTUMN OF 2014 I PLAN ON HAVING AN LED PANEL (OR PANELS) TO REPLACE THE 600w HID
THAT LIGHTS A 4x4ft AREA for me.
 
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