silicate???

[zem]

i have seen lots of formulas that dont have or mention any silicate. now i bounce into this info, that silicate is a good nutrient, wtf is going on? is there silicate in regular tap or well water?

 

[churchhaze]

I still don't put silicates in my formulations. If you want to try it, get your hands on some potassium silicate or silicic acid.

The only scientific evidence I've seen in favor of Si is either anecdotal (People claiming stronger stems, which I think is from the K in K2SiO3), or that tests show plants uptake Si. Proof of uptake is not really proof of utility. If there were documents proving a plant could uptake lead or aluminum, would people automatically conclude that plants actually use the lead for something?

There's very little research to back any of it up.

 

[zem]

I still don't put silicates in my formulations. If you want to try it, get your hands on some potassium silicate or silicic acid.

The only scientific evidence I've seen in favor of Si is either anecdotal (People claiming stronger stems, which I think is from the K in K2SiO3), or that tests show plants uptake Si. Proof of uptake is not really proof of utility. If there were documents proving a plant could uptake lead or aluminum, would people automatically conclude that plants actually use the lead for something?

There's very little research to back any of it up.

i use raw chemicals in parts to feed and i use formulas from many farms across the worls, none ever mentioned silicate, actually i'm not sure how i bounced into it to begin with, but a simple google search shows many silicate products and claims that they improve many things in plants other than stems, like better resistance to disease and pests, and better leaf formation and more. i am not sure what to make from this, i am a bit confused, could i have missed such a vital fert element all these years or is it just another myth? and does Si rise to a high level to become toxic

 

[TonightYou]

I occasionally use potassium silicate. Some research lead me to the idea that it can improve stem research although it isn't something conclusive, and I would like to do a side by side with clones. Trying to think of a way to take a more scientific approach to its effectiveness. Was thinking one way would be to do cuts in the stems and count/measure cell walls at different points along the stem asking a tension test.

 

[Scroga]

There is a warning on the bottle, not to overdo it..think it was don't go over 4ml/ 1ltr from memory..(Budlink)

 

[TonightYou]

Yea, only use a small amount. I have a bottle that will last me forever. Picked it up on amazon for next to nothing

 

[churchhaze]

If you do try a side by side experiment, make sure if you're using potassium silicate to reduce other sources of K to compensate for the added K from the K2SiO3 or the test results will be inconclusive.

I occasionally use potassium silicate. Some research lead me to the idea that it can improve stem research although it isn't something conclusive, and I would like to do a side by side with clones. Trying to think of a way to take a more scientific approach to its effectiveness. Was thinking one way would be to do cuts in the stems and count/measure cell walls at different points along the stem asking a tension test.

 

[churchhaze]

I only started hearing about using silicates here at RIU in the last year or so. Not once have I read anything about silicon 1-15 years ago. Only recently.

Too bad more people don't make their own nutrients out of raw salts like us. By far the cheapest and most versatile way to grow in hydro.


Step 1) Google potassium silicate

step 2) find what you're looking for

i use raw chemicals in parts to feed and i use formulas from many farms across the worls, none ever mentioned silicate, actually i'm not sure how i bounced into it to begin with, but a simple google search shows many silicate products and claims that they improve many things in plants other than stems, like better resistance to disease and pests, and better leaf formation and more. i am not sure what to make from this, i am a bit confused, could i have missed such a vital fert element all these years or is it just another myth? and does Si rise to a high level to become toxic

 

[Thundercat]

A big reason that I believe that Si isn't typically added into other formulas, is because of the PH issues and mixing issues that it presents. Every Si product that I've ever seen will cause your PH to jump up. You also must mix it into the water completely before you add your nutes or it will cause other nutes(calcium mainly I think) to drop out of the nute solution. I've ran Si a few times, but mostly to raise the PH of the solution. I havn't done a side by side, or really noticed any big change in the plants, but it did what I needed it to. I mostly add some when I do a res change now.

 

[churchhaze]

Assuming Si does nothing (I honestly don't know), why not use potassium hydroxide, a strong base, to raise the pH? Honestly, I'll replace my potassium hydroxide with potassium silicate if I find conclusive evidence that it's worth my time.

A big reason that I believe that Si isn't typically added into other formulas, is because of the PH issues and mixing issues that it presents. Every Si product that I've ever seen will cause your PH to jump up. You also must mix it into the water completely before you add your nutes or it will cause other nutes(calcium mainly I think) to drop out of the nute solution. I've ran Si a few times, but mostly to raise the PH of the solution. I havn't done a side by side, or really noticed any big change in the plants, but it did what I needed it to. I mostly add some when I do a res change now.

 

[Thundercat]

I don't use raw chems to mix my own nutes. Useing the SI seemed like a simple way to acheive my goal and MAYBE get other benefit, rather then just using normal ph up which I also had. As it happens like a month after I bought the SI the first time I had just got the botanicare cus it was priced well, the guy at the shop gave me another bottle of it cus the lid was cracked after he dropped it earlier that day. So I got 2 for 1 pricing .

 

[TonightYou]

If you do try a side by side experiment, make sure if you're using potassium silicate to reduce other sources of K to compensate for the added K from the K2SiO3 or the test results will be inconclusive.

Your nutrient calculator should be able to do this easily if you're using raw salts like... Oh wait... Nutrient calculators are for dummies right? I guess you'll just have to do it all by hand.. Oh wait, you can't do that either... Whatever, just guesstimate it and post your results as if they're conclusive.

I'll ignore the second part as your first was at least constructive. I'd have to check the bottle to see what amount of k is in it. I don't think it's much, and I believe that the solution includes k due to the fertilizer preparation. But that is a good point. I've done clones with it and without it side by side and I observed that those treated needed less support. Again only an observation, not exactly scientific.

And no, I don't need a calculator, I read my plants. Growing cannabis is not like baking a cake, nor does every strain want the same feeding schedule. I'm sure you've gathered that from experience, no?

 

[churchhaze]

The reason it includes K is because it's K2SiO3. The amount of K is proportional to how much K2SiO3 was used. That means that the amount of Si is proportional to the amount of K used. This means if there's lots of Si, there's lot's of K. If there's less Si, there's less K.

There isn't a reason they add K. potassium silicate simply has K in it.

I'd have to check the bottle to see what amount of k is in it. I don't think it's much, and I believe that the solution includes k due to the fertilizer preparation.

 

[churchhaze]

Right, you don't need a calculator to use jacks to grow your plants, but if you want to do a controlled experiment, you will need to use calculations. The purpose of an experiment is not to grow plants, it's to get the results of the experiment and come up with a conclusion based on that.

If you're experiment doesn't at least have the level of control as baking cookies, what makes you think you should be doing it? Please post the results of your experiment.

And no, I don't need a calculator, I read my plants. Growing cannabis is not like baking a cake, nor does every strain want the same feeding schedule. I'm sure you've gathered that from experience, no?

 

[TonightYou]

The reason it includes K is because it'ones SiO3. The amount of K is proportional to how much K2SiO3 was used. That means that the amount of Si is proportional to the amount of K used. This means if there's lots of Si, there's lot's of K. If there's less Si, there's less K.

Use some common sense. There isn't a reason they add K. potassium silicate simply has K in it. It's really that simple. Don't take it all in at once, your brain might explode.

I thought perhaps we could stop being assholes to each other. I know what potassium silicate is, was simply thinking out loud as to if other possible silicate solutions that could be accessible to a plant. There may not be, I haven't done any research into that. It's been a few years since my chemistry courses.

Dude I'm all about the scientific process, hence why I don't buy into bullshit (that's a generalized statement, not directed at you).
I wouldn't mind trying to figure out a way to honestly judge the merit of using Silicate preparations. I've ran clones, on the same feeding regiment , with the controls not receiving silicate while the experimental ones receiving silicate. The plants with silicate needed less support and on one strain no support when compared to the control. Granted it was a small sample, purely based on observation. I'm trying to figure out a way in which to gather empirical data, perhaps stem dissection and observing cell count and size of the cell walls. Another thought I had was a tension test. I could pretty easily get my hands on a decent microscope.

Anyways, that's my thought process, if ya have any ideas on that method by all means chime in.

 

[Scroga]

I think what he's saying is that there is no way too tell if the clone benefited from the silicate or the extra potassium...

 

[TonightYou]

You could figure it out using multiple regression. By knowing the NPK amounts used in each formula, you could see if there is a correlation to silicate use and increased stem strength. I agree it would be easier if all things remain equal, but often in the world, numbers aren't so easily presented. I deal with statistics and often one is asked does x cause or correlate with y, but you have a, b, and c to consider as often time not all is equal.

Ideally for such an experiment, one could add to the control the same amount of K to offset the k in the silicate preparation. I'm not near the bottle I have at the moment, but I don't think it was a significant number, but my recollection may be wrong.

 

[chocobear]

Just google silicate in plants. There is plenty of researched science on it. The studies aren't hard to find with a little searching. I'm too tired to look for you.

 

[TonightYou]

Oh I know, that's where I got the idea to use some. I've read a couple studies I pulled off of JSTOR which suggested this, but there were some caveats. I find it an interesting experiment nonetheless.

 

[churchhaze]

Please post some links to studies. Telling us to do a google search isn't helpful and contributes nothing. I've read a few studies, but nothing I've found showed conclusively that adding silicates will affect yields. There really aren't that many studies when compared with other elements, in fact, most of the results lead to pot growing forums. By comparison, search for studies on phosphates and you'll find a ton of studies on the effects of different phosphate concentrations on various things like metabolism, conversion of sugars to starch, etc going back almost 100 years.

Notice, I said in an earlier post that I've read studies showing plants uptake Si, but they made no conclusion on whether that had any affect on growth and quality, only speculation. That's why you should post a link to your study if you have a good one that one of us hasn't read yet.

Just google silicate in plants. There is plenty of researched science on it. The studies aren't hard to find with a little searching. I'm too tired to look for you.