Why No Clay? Manure? Sand? Forest Mould?!

These are All apart of natural soil, why do we not use them?

Because honestly I have to Make Way more soil than I thought, and I don't have Any base and I don't feel like spending $65 on promix, especially when I Just bought another promix for $21 today...

So I was thinking I would buy a Big 40# bag Pearlite, mix that with Horse Manure which I can get a Multitude for free, and it is mainly bedding and saw chips and dust, and when composted looks and smells Amazing like peat moss almost in look and texture, not thick dense like straight cow manure.

Also some cow manure In Place of Earthworm Castings! I know this is blasphey to most, but pure cow dung has equal npk, and is a Tenth of the cost of ewc for me.

And then adding some nicewhite deep earth clay, and maybe a little sand and forest mould...

What do you think? And also adding all the amendments, like kelp, rock, fulvic etc...

Manure can burn your plants even after being composted. High salt content. I use steer manure in my mix pretty lightly...i would say about a gallon per 3 cubic feet.

DonPetro said:

Manure can burn your plants even after being composted. High salt content. I use steer manure in my mix pretty lightly...i would say about a gallon per 3 cubic feet.

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but thats what im saying its mainly just bedding like saw dust and straw and wood chips.

DonPetro said:

Manure can burn your plants even after being composted. High salt content. I use steer manure in my mix pretty lightly...i would say about a gallon per 3 cubic feet.

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And when it is Hot composted, it is light, fluffy, and airy, not like pure manure.

But they still piss and shit on that bedding. And actually, animal manure by definition is a mixture of feces, urine and bedding straw. Im just saying that manure, however well composted, can still burn your plants and should not make up too much of your base mix.

DonPetro said:

But they still piss and shit on that bedding. And actually, animal manure by definition is a mixture of feces, urine and bedding straw. Im just saying that manure, however well composted, can still burn your plants and should not make up too much of your base mix.

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I agree with you on the fresh manure. That can cause problems. But the composted manure should be fine. There is a local Michigan company called Morgan Composting and they sell a product called Dairy Doo. It's just composted dairy manure. I've used it in the past when I was short on castings and everything went smooth that grow.

I don't doubt that. I use steer manure in my mix. I wouldn't want to go much higher than 15% total volume though. But hell, i've never used that much so what do i know.

DonPetro said:

I don't doubt that. I use steer manure in my mix. I wouldn't want to go much higher than 15% total volume though. But hell, i've never used that much so what do i know.

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thanks for the advice, i will keep it low.

st0wandgrow said:

I agree with you on the fresh manure. That can cause problems. But the composted manure should be fine. There is a local Michigan company called Morgan Composting and they sell a product called Dairy Doo. It's just composted dairy manure. I've used it in the past when I was short on castings and everything went smooth that grow.

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thanks Brother, figured it was good, my soil now looks almost all like fresh ewc, which is just compost essentially right?

Also what do you all think about clay, and fresh straw, and some sand and forest mould? i reall do think i may tryto make up a batch... Experimental wise.

Pearlite or vermiculite?

cannakis said:

These are All apart of natural soil, why do we not use them?

Because honestly I have to Make Way more soil than I thought, and I don't have Any base and I don't feel like spending $65 on promix, especially when I Just bought another promix for $21 today...

So I was thinking I would buy a Big 40# bag Pearlite, mix that with Horse Manure which I can get a Multitude for free, and it is mainly bedding and saw chips and dust, and when composted looks and smells Amazing like peat moss almost in look and texture, not thick dense like straight cow manure.

Also some cow manure In Place of Earthworm Castings! I know this is blasphey to most, but pure cow dung has equal npk, and is a Tenth of the cost of ewc for me.

And then adding some nicewhite deep earth clay, and maybe a little sand and forest mould...

What do you think? And also adding all the amendments, like kelp, rock, fulvic etc...

Click to expand...

If you're looking to save money ditch the Pro Mix. Go to Home Depot and buy a 3cf bale of sphagum peat moss for $10. Its the same company (Premiere) and same product, less the dolomitic lime and mycorrhizae. Senseless to add that to a bag of peat anyway.

If you have perlite, great. You've got 2/3'rds of your base covered. Your source of compost is next. This will make or break the soil. Don't cut corners here. Vermicompost/compost that you make at home is best. You have full control over what goes in to it. Next to that, look local. That composted manure would be fine as part of the mix. Spend your money on this portion of your soil....but don't buy the bagged crap from the hydro shop.

This is not to say that the clay/straw idea won't work, but putting together a base is so cheap I see no reason to deviate from what we know works. If you do try it be sure to let us know how it goes. I think in small enough proportions you'll be fine

st0wandgrow said:

If you're looking to save money ditch the Pro Mix. Go to Home Depot and buy a 3cf bale of sphagum peat moss for $10. Its the same company (Premiere) and same product, less the dolomitic lime and mycorrhizae. Senseless to add that to a bag of peat anyway.

If you have perlite, great. You've got 2/3'rds of your base covered. Your source of compost is next. This will make or break the soil. Don't cut corners here. Vermicompost/compost that you make at home is best. You have full control over what goes in to it. Next to that, look local. That composted manure would be fine as part of the mix. Spend your money on this portion of your soil....but don't buy the bagged crap from the hydro shop.

This is not to say that the clay/straw idea won't work, but putting together a base is so cheap I see no reason to deviate from what we know works. If you do try it be sure to let us know how it goes. I think in small enough proportions you'll be fine

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yeah i definitely will share my results.! thanks for the advice, and yeah i actually realized i will have to buy over $120 worth of promix!

Peat moss comes from wetland bogs in Canada or Michigan, which is not sustainable and probably a long, long way from where you live (see Do You Recommend Peat Moss to Improve Soil?). Many nurseries that grow woody shrubs and trees have found that composted tree bark or wood chips work beautifully as a peat moss substitute. In Walla Walla, Washington, Organix Inc. has developed a technology that turns the cow manure used in methane production into a peatlike material, sold as RePeat. Coconut husk fibers, coir, will stand in for peat moss any day of the week, but unless you live where it’s produced — in India or Central America — coir is about as exotic as you can get. For most of us, the best peat alternatives are leaf mold (rotted leaves), rotted sawdust or a mixture of both. A 4-by-5-foot pile of chopped leaves will take about two years to decompose into leaf mold. In areas where organic rice or other grain hulls are available, composting them will create a light material for fluffing up potting soil.

This was from http://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/how-to-make-your-own-potting-soil-zmaz08djzgoe.aspx#axzz3FPdpRkAt

That is exactly what I was thinking.!

cannakis said:

These are All apart of natural soil, why do we not use them?

Because honestly I have to Make Way more soil than I thought, and I don't have Any base and I don't feel like spending $65 on promix, especially when I Just bought another promix for $21 today...

So I was thinking I would buy a Big 40# bag Pearlite, mix that with Horse Manure which I can get a Multitude for free, and it is mainly bedding and saw chips and dust, and when composted looks and smells Amazing like peat moss almost in look and texture, not thick dense like straight cow manure.

Also some cow manure In Place of Earthworm Castings! I know this is blasphey to most, but pure cow dung has equal npk, and is a Tenth of the cost of ewc for me.

And then adding some nicewhite deep earth clay, and maybe a little sand and forest mould...

What do you think? And also adding all the amendments, like kelp, rock, fulvic etc...

Click to expand...

in my mind, I REALLY don't think there is a good substitute for worm castings (maybe a really good leaf compost but still)... one thing to consider is none of us use the EWC for it's NPK values, after all it's minimal at best, BUT the thing is, it's chock full of the critters we need as organic farmers.
I recommend doing this, go buy a 15-30 gallon size airpot, and then order 30 bucks worth of redworms from uncle jims, and then get a newspaper and an old cardboard box, and make a wormbin. It's simple and you'd be surprised actually how addictive it is. From there you'll have the best EWC in the world, and if you are serious about no-till or re-using old soil or even just organics in general, you'll wish you started the wormbin earlier.
I wouldn't substitute manure for EWC, not at all, unless you really age that soil you'll be asking for trouble, and the amount of time that it'll take to age it, you might as well start a wormbin. Not to mention the salt issues/ and or antibiotics that horses routinely get fed also.
sand, clay and forest compost are not bad ideas, but again, I would not use the manure as a substitute. It's simply NOT a replacement. In my opinion.

I personally don't like to cut corners on soil, genetics, lights, or nutrients.

greasemonkeymann said:

I personally don't like to cut corners on soil, genetics, lights, or nutrients.

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haha yeah thanks so much brother! well do i need to sift it to remove the worms or do i add the worms to soil too?

cannakis said:

haha yeah thanks so much brother! well do i need to sift it to remove the worms or do i add the worms to soil too?

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Read the first sentence of this thread! You answered your own question!

a senile fungus said:

Read the first sentence of this thread! You answered your own question!

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hahahaha i love it! thanks so much brothet!

cannakis said:

haha yeah thanks so much brother! well do i need to sift it to remove the worms or do i add the worms to soil too?

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what I like to do is remove most of the visible worms, all the big ones, and purposely leave the worm eggs they'll hatch and help aerate your soil, if you are using a no-till it's a good way to start, i'd also suggest some biochar to start also, I kinda wish I did that, now i'd have to rip up all my nice pots and mix it up with the biochar, but I the more I read on biochar, the more I wish I started there. it is a lil pricey, but once you get your soil dialed in, it's simple from there, not to mention REALLY cheap, especially if you have your own EWC, for me i'm just getting into using comfrey and dandelion in place of nutrient teas, going to see if this harvest has any different nuances than normal. Plus, dandelion is free, and my comfrey plant cost me 5.99, and it grows well in the soil I have. I can't say how well it works because I am just starting the process, in approx. 3 months i'll have a good write up on it.

greasemonkeymann said:

what I like to do is remove most of the visible worms, all the big ones, and purposely leave the worm eggs they'll hatch and help aerate your soil, if you are using a no-till it's a good way to start, i'd also suggest some biochar to start also, I kinda wish I did that, now i'd have to rip up all my nice pots and mix it up with the biochar, but I the more I read on biochar, the more I wish I started there. it is a lil pricey, but once you get your soil dialed in, it's simple from there, not to mention REALLY cheap, especially if you have your own EWC, for me i'm just getting into using comfrey and dandelion in place of nutrient teas, going to see if this harvest has any different nuances than normal. Plus, dandelion is free, and my comfrey plant cost me 5.99, and it grows well in the soil I have. I can't say how well it works because I am just starting the process, in approx. 3 months i'll have a good write up on it.

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Yeah dude definitely! Let us know. I Am interested to see the results.!

Why not just some Ashes and Charcoal?

I Am doing the same thing next year... Growing Edamame/Soy, Comfrey, and whatever other herbs and plants I should grow to help my soil.