What's goin on with my girls, again?

heykevo

Member
This is the third time this grow that this has happened. I'm in week 6 of flower right now. Happened early veg, late veg, and now late flower. Eight week strain.

I'm following cocoforcannabis nutrient guide to a T.

They're in coco, hand watered at least 2x a day but usually 4-5, 20% runoff at least once per day but it's usually more.

Can anyone tell me what I'm deficient in now?
 

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Delps8

Well-Known Member
In a percentage of situations, the nute imbalance is a symptom of environmental conditions. Given that this keeps happening and you're confident that your nutrient mix is good, I'd look in that direction.

What are your temperature and RH values?
 

medidedicated

Well-Known Member
Do they ever get bone dry at the top overnight? Sounds like inconsistent feeding. Plants love the consistency of timers and nutrient solution.

I started out following coco for canna and quickly found I couldnt add calmg to the mix like he says to. Also few other things I dont follow that cant think of right now.

So yea id take that with a grain of salt. Whats the runoff reading? Whats your water source and the ec of that?

I usually update the same thread so most the info dont have be re explained and you get like 10 peoples attention at once that already were helping.
 

heykevo

Member
Do they ever get bone dry at the top overnight? Sounds like inconsistent feeding. Plants love the consistency of timers and nutrient solution.

I started out following coco for canna and quickly found I couldnt add calmg to the mix like he says to. Also few other things I dont follow that cant think of right now.

So yea id take that with a grain of salt. Whats the runoff reading? Whats your water source and the ec of that?

I usually update the same thread so most the info dont have be re explained and you get like 10 peoples attention at once that already were helping.
They don't get dry at the top. I definitely do inconsistently feed, but it's at least twice per day. The tops are always moist, the outside of the fabric pots are always wet, and I still get runoff pretty quick. Next run will be with auto feeding because feeding by hand is balls, even with a pump and wand.

Source is tap water at .15ec. We have good water here.

My inflow EC is 1.45 (1.3 + .15 for tap water correction). My outflow EC is 1.6-1.75.

Inflow PH is 6.2 currently, outflow 6.44. It drifts but never much.
 

heykevo

Member
In a percentage of situations, the nute imbalance is a symptom of environmental conditions. Given that this keeps happening and you're confident that your nutrient mix is good, I'd look in that direction.

What are your temperature and RH values?
Haven't really paid attention to that, good thinking. 78f 67.7% lights on. 66f 79.6% lights off. I'm assuming my RH is too high, but I don't think that can cause this particular issue, you? I'll get it resolved to prevent future issues though.
 

medidedicated

Well-Known Member
They don't get dry at the top. I definitely do inconsistently feed, but it's at least twice per day. The tops are always moist, the outside of the fabric pots are always wet, and I still get runoff pretty quick. Next run will be with auto feeding because feeding by hand is balls, even with a pump and wand.

Source is tap water at .15ec. We have good water here.

My inflow EC is 1.45 (1.3 + .15 for tap water correction). My outflow EC is 1.6-1.75.

Inflow PH is 6.2 currently, outflow 6.44. It drifts but never much.
Ok that sounds good sounds like youre taking care of them, nice job. I had to show someone a water report to find my water that I thought was ok could create a guessing game when things go wrong.

I been lucky though but I do feed real heavy at 1.8-2.1ec 8x a day .5ec tap water. I did .8ec total and got fading and leaf damage until I hit 1.8ec.

I measured runoff each time though with equal ec in and out before raising ec.

What nute brand you using? You adding calmg? They look moreso losing food than overfed and burned. Im no pro at these things though.
 

heykevo

Member
Ok that sounds good sounds like youre taking care of them, nice job. I had to show someone a water report to find my water that I thought was ok could create a guessing game when things go wrong.

I been lucky though but I do feed real heavy at 1.8-2.1ec 8x a day .5ec tap water. I did .8ec total and got fading and leaf damage until I hit 1.8ec.

I measured runoff each time though with equal ec in and out before raising ec.

What nute brand you using? You adding calmg? They look moreso losing food than overfed and burned. Im no pro at these things though.
I use mostly GH. My calmag is fox farms and yea I use that per the cocoforcannabis chart.

Runoff has consistently been around +.2 to +.3 EC from inflow.

I think I may just be stressing them out with my fertigation frequency changes. I feed them when I have time, might just not be often enough for the EC I'm throwing in. Less than two weeks left in the grow hopefully I can just finish strong and do better next time with auto feeding.
 

medidedicated

Well-Known Member
I use mostly GH. My calmag is fox farms and yea I use that per the cocoforcannabis chart.

Runoff has consistently been around +.2 to +.3 EC from inflow.

I think I may just be stressing them out with my fertigation frequency changes. I feed them when I have time, might just not be often enough for the EC I'm throwing in. Less than two weeks left in the grow hopefully I can just finish strong and do better next time with auto feeding.
I had issues adding calmg I started out same thing I read the whole site and thought I should follow everything. Its nice to read the whole site then come here to ask questions before your first dtw coco grow.

I havent found any pics of dr cocos grows. Have you?

This is the mulders chart. Calmg influences almost everything in excess. Coco for cana doesnt mention that at all.

My issues went away with removing calmg. I was using ro water too. I couldnt get past the first month of growth from seed without fading, lockout.

I would only add calmg carefully that doesnt cause lock out. Gh nutes? Maxi bloom or flora trio? Maxibloom lacks some calcium so some will add a tiny bit of calmg.

I only get the most minor calcium spots not enough to bother changing anything. I run maxibloom.

People get away with it but its just worth noting. Most nutes meant for dtw coco has enough calmg in it. A well buffered coco never flushed/watered with plain water should hold despite what that site says.
 

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medidedicated

Well-Known Member
Heres a plant 3 weeks from chop. Nothing but maxibloom and pool shock. Yea looks a bit overfed but its just what makes it work. Burnt tips isnt a big deal IMO.

Looking again they look almost done and made it far must be something recent.
 

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Kushash

Well-Known Member
Haven't really paid attention to that, good thinking. 78f 67.7% lights on. 66f 79.6% lights off. I'm assuming my RH is too high, but I don't think that can cause this particular issue, you? I'll get it resolved to prevent future issues though.
What type of lights are you using and how far are they kept from the canopy?
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Haven't really paid attention to that, good thinking. 78f 67.7% lights on. 66f 79.6% lights off. I'm assuming my RH is too high, but I don't think that can cause this particular issue, you? I'll get it resolved to prevent future issues though.
"this particular issue" - it's not, necessarily, a function of RH being to high but the combination of temperature and RH can be such that it causes nutrient issues. The symptom is a nutrient imbalance; the cause can be temperature + RH being out of whack.

66 and 80 is cold and moist. I'd stay away from that in flower.

On the other hand, 78 and 68 is a good combination…checks pictures…nope you're in flower so 78 and 68 is pretty wet. The temperature is really good but I'd drop RH by 10% or more.


[checks VPD chart]

At 78 and 68, your smack dab in seedling territory. The image below is a screen shot of the VPD calculator from Pulse. If you're not familiar with VPD, it's similar to "feels like" for humans. Just like in humans, if RH is high, we can't sweat very well and it feels "muggy".

For a seedling, 78 and 68 is great because the root system of the plant is not well developed and the relatively high RH means that water can't leave the plant very quickly so there's no stress on the plant.

As the plant matures, VPD should be higher, meaning the plant will give off more water, because the root system can bring in more water. That, in turn, means that more nutrients can be brought in.

In flower, VPD should be higher still. The plant has a lot of surface area and, with the higher vapor pressure deficit (like humans, plants are "bags of water") more water is leaving the plant=more water is coming in to the plant so more nutrients can be taken up.

Transpiration is very important for taking up nutrients and for cooling the plant.

When VPD is low in flower, the plant cannot take up nutrients because the higher RH and/or lower temp aren't pulling water out of the plant. That slows transpiration which slows nutrient uptake.

You can go overboard with VPD. It doesn't have to be in the optimal range but, with the numbers you've posted, your plants are not taking up the nutrients at the level they need. This isn't Scienceing™ - at its core, it's physics (everything moves from high to low in an attempt to reach a steady state) that explains how plants react.

I know all this shit-I have a degree in History. :-)

Seriously, though, I can't say that that's the reason that things aren't looking too good but if you drop your RH into the mid-50's, your plants will be able to cool off properly and nutrient uptake will get back in line.

One issue that's in the Pulse FAQ's is night time VPD. Per above 66 and 80 may well cause bud rot in flower so you'll want to try to drop RH just for that reason alone. In terms of VPD, I think I remember Pulse saying that night time VPD isn't a big issue (at all). For some reason, the phrase "daytime VPD is 20 times more important" comes to mind but they do recommend that you try to keep it within 0.2 units or something like that. Check out their docs to make sure you get the correct info.

1722561585048.png
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
I forget the light can be the culprit sometimes. It can handle it at first in some spots then crap out later on from the 1000+ ppfd. Had similar fades in veg same culprit.
>1000µmol is "very well fed". If they're not showing signs of too much light, that's great.
 

heykevo

Member
"this particular issue" - it's not, necessarily, a function of RH being to high but the combination of temperature and RH can be such that it causes nutrient issues. The symptom is a nutrient imbalance; the cause can be temperature + RH being out of whack.

66 and 80 is cold and moist. I'd stay away from that in flower.

On the other hand, 78 and 68 is a good combination…checks pictures…nope you're in flower so 78 and 68 is pretty wet. The temperature is really good but I'd drop RH by 10% or more.


[checks VPD chart]

At 78 and 68, your smack dab in seedling territory. The image below is a screen shot of the VPD calculator from Pulse. If you're not familiar with VPD, it's similar to "feels like" for humans. Just like in humans, if RH is high, we can't sweat very well and it feels "muggy".

For a seedling, 78 and 68 is great because the root system of the plant is not well developed and the relatively high RH means that water can't leave the plant very quickly so there's no stress on the plant.

As the plant matures, VPD should be higher, meaning the plant will give off more water, because the root system can bring in more water. That, in turn, means that more nutrients can be brought in.

In flower, VPD should be higher still. The plant has a lot of surface area and, with the higher vapor pressure deficit (like humans, plants are "bags of water") more water is leaving the plant=more water is coming in to the plant so more nutrients can be taken up.

Transpiration is very important for taking up nutrients and for cooling the plant.

When VPD is low in flower, the plant cannot take up nutrients because the higher RH and/or lower temp aren't pulling water out of the plant. That slows transpiration which slows nutrient uptake.

You can go overboard with VPD. It doesn't have to be in the optimal range but, with the numbers you've posted, your plants are not taking up the nutrients at the level they need. This isn't Scienceing™ - at its core, it's physics (everything moves from high to low in an attempt to reach a steady state) that explains how plants react.

I know all this shit-I have a degree in History. :-)

Seriously, though, I can't say that that's the reason that things aren't looking too good but if you drop your RH into the mid-50's, your plants will be able to cool off properly and nutrient uptake will get back in line.

One issue that's in the Pulse FAQ's is night time VPD. Per above 66 and 80 may well cause bud rot in flower so you'll want to try to drop RH just for that reason alone. In terms of VPD, I think I remember Pulse saying that night time VPD isn't a big issue (at all). For some reason, the phrase "daytime VPD is 20 times more important" comes to mind but they do recommend that you try to keep it within 0.2 units or something like that. Check out their docs to make sure you get the correct info.

View attachment 5413111
Thanks for that. VPD was something I've seen thrown around and I spent some time on it, but it didn't make sense to me. You just made it make sense. I'll get the RH down and check my leaf temp and try to start following VPD a little more.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
i must say it 600-1000 ppfd is good...and huhu delps8:weed: and another thing buy a caluma led delps8!
I saw your posting on another thread, the one where you copied and pasted a lot of info. Overall, it was a good way to spread "the good word" about grow lighting but I lost interest when it appeared to be nothing more than a series of copy and paste actions.

Amidst the verbiage was mention of the Caluma and, IIRC, you referred to the Vipar XS-1500 Pro as "trash" yet you offered nothing in the way of substantiating your claim. Your assertion was hyperbolic and offered without evidence. As a result, I disregarded it.

After this posting, I looked at the website for the Caluma. I see that it's a board light, offered in a variety of input wattages. I couldn't find any PPFD maps on the manufacturer's web site. That's a surprising omission and weighs against it because it makes it harder to do a factual comparison of the light against the competition.

A few clicks later, I was found a PPFD map on a few of the models and it looks like those lights are a fairly typical board light. For each of the PPFD maps in the PDF, the max PPFD values are modest and once you move off center, the PPFD values drop off quickly. The word I use for attenuation like that it "collapse".

In the case of the Caluma 150, for example, at the 30cm (12") hang height, PPFD in the center is, according to the manufacturer, a bit below 700µmol. That's below the 800-1000µmol range that is considered the light saturation point for cannabis. Moving to the edges, the light values are < 400µmol and the corners are <270. The latter two values are sufficient for seedling and germination stages of cannabis but are unsuited for flowering cannabis.

What struck me as strange is that the measurements are taken in an 80cm (31") tent. That's a very large area for a 150 watt fixture to cover and, if the company is trying to appeal to the US market, using a tent that large doesn't help them. When I factor in the increased size of the tent and rethink the PPFD values, my use of the word collapse for PPFD values continues to be valid. The key point is that map shows that highest PPFD values for the grid square and, in a 2' x 2' tent, according to the manufacturer, the maximum PPFD values in the edges and corners would be the values displayed in their 80 cm PPFD map.

In sum, the 150 has PPFD map that shows that, at its highest, it will not generate a sufficient amount of light to reach the light saturation point for cannabis in flower and, as you move off center, the PPFD levels drop off to the point where, when measured on the side and in the corners, the fixture does not provide enough light to support high quality growth during the vegetative stage.

After reviewing the light output for the 150, I checked the pictures of the light on the manufacturers website to see if the driver could be dismounted from the fixture. This is a common feature of bar lights but, historically has not been a feature board lights. In the case of the Caluma series of lights, I could not find a mention of whether or not the driver could be dismounted and, based on the images in the website, the light hangers attach to the top of the driver. By inference, I conclude that the driver cannot be dismounted. For a 150 watt light, this is acceptable but, when moving up in the wattage levels, the inability to move the driver out of the tent makes thermal management more difficult.

Board style lights are a mature design and offer price advantages over a bar style light. They have always had the marked characteristic of having a high PPFD value in the center and a rapid falloff as you move off center. One light that has changed that trend is the Vipar Spectra XS-1500 Pro and Vipar deserves kudos for creating a very low cost growlight that provides a very even PPFD map.

Based on the information from the Caluma website, their products appear to be modern releases of a traditional board style light that has a non-detachable driver, high light output in the center, and very rapid fall off as soon as you move away from the center point. While that design offers the advantage of low manufacturing and production costs, outside of the 2' x 2' space, board lights are, from a cost/performance perspective, second tier performers.

As expected, advances in technology make older designs less attractive and, within a short time, obsolete. As with board lights from other manufacturers, the products offer a low price for a model in a give product class but, when the specifics of the model are examined, the cost/benefit is shown to be high. All in all, board lights are cheaper going in but that's because, due to the fact that they are a board light, they are not able to produce a PPFD map that offers an even cast of light on the canopy.

As I've argued in other places, that's why the Vipar XS-1500 Pro is such a standout. Vipar has produced a small board light that offers high PPFD values and gives an extremely even light cast and brings that product to market at an extremely low price.


Having taken a quick look at the Caluma line, the Caluma Force Pro appears to be a far superior product to their board style offerings. The PPFD map covers a 90 cm (48") tent, which is standard, but the hang height is a staggering 36". While I'm sure I've seen some PPFD maps using that height, it's very uncommon, and my thinking is that they're using that to offer a comparison to HPS lamps which have to use a signficant hang height to reduce the impact of the tremendous amount of heat they give off. In contrast, LED's generate far less heat. That allows the fixture to be moved closer the canopy which, in turn, allows more photons to be delivered at a lower cost of electricity, among other benefits.

With that in mind, the Caluma Force Pro is a marked contrast to the Caluma board lights. When you compare the PPFD map for the Force Pro it's quite a respectable competitor to the Chilled Growcraft 600 watt light at a hang height of 24" whose PPFD map is here. There's a big difference between 36" hang height and 24" hang height but the Growcraft was a 2017± design and has been out of production for a year. Putting that aside, the fact that the Force Pro is able to generate almost 900µmol at the center and >700 along the sides at 36" hang height speaks well of that light.

What did strike me as strange, however, is that the manufacturer recommends a hang height of 40cm to 60cm (16"-24") but they show a PPFD map for a 36" hang height. While it does offer values that can be seen as an "HPS replacement", it doesn't make it easy to compare this model to competing models from manufacturers who make the performance data about their lights at a variety of hang heights easily available.

In short, the Caluma Force Pro might be a of interest while the Caluma board lights are a modern release of a technology that is at the end of its technology lifecycle.
 
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