Nature vs Nuture

I was thinking about this and I'm unsure if the tile is even correct, but here goes.

Is intelligence genetic or is it learned?

I bring up the documented cases of feral children.

Sujit Kumar is one such case, with Oxana Malaya as another, I only mention these to represent a certain view point in the debate.











Little buzzed at the moment so.....is this even the right place for this topic?

It's the right place imo, but brace for a wide variety of responses in both content and tone.

I tend to fall on the "nature" side of the argument. Of course, it depends on how intelligence is assessed. Most IQ tests have an irreducible component of culture, i.e. things we learn. cn

I would have to say both... but i'm not sure if they are equal parts.

...maybe it is developed. The process is up for grabs, but I think intelligence itself is latent.

I think we ought to stop looking at this as a dichotomy or paradigm and see that they are not at odds, nor are they independent of one another. They compliment each other, activate each other and amplify each other. This is particularly true in the case of cannabis growing imo. Nurture according to what the nature of the genes crave and the genes will crave more of it and you will then see blossom according to both nature and nurture in the greatest of it's potential.

In humans this is best witnessed in epigenetics.

You are N squared. That is, you are the product of Nature and Nurture, where both are of equal value. They are multiplicative, thus contributing to the infinite possibilities for individuality.

abandonconflict said:

I think we ought to stop looking at this as a dichotomy or paradigm and see that they are not at odds, nor are they independent of one another. They compliment each other, activate each other and amplify each other. This is particularly true in the case of cannabis growing imo. Nurture according to what the nature of the genes crave and the genes will crave more of it and you will then see blossom according to both nature and nurture in the greatest of it's potential.

In humans this is best witnessed in epigenetics.

You are N squared. That is, you are the product of Nature and Nurture, where both are of equal value. They are multiplicative, thus contributing to the infinite possibilities for individuality.

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This is very likely true. We know that our brain rearranges and links up neurons in response to new information yet there may be some aspects of our brains that are congenital and may be better suited to certain abilities that other people cannot get even with a lot of training.
Also, people must understand that genetics is not merely, we are born with it so it's done. Information in our genes is constantly utilized and modified throughout our lives.

I saw this BBC documentary recently on the Science Channel and it helps details and outline some of the questions and challenges we face when answering a question like the OP.

What Makes a Genius? is a BBC documentary presented by Marcus du Sautoy, exploring what makes someone a genius. Marcus du Sautoy wants to know if geniuses are just an extreme version of himself - or whether their brains are fundamentally different. He meets some remarkable individuals - Tommy, an obsessive artist who uses his whole house as his canvas; Derek: blind, autistic, and a pianist with apparently prodigious gifts; Claire who is also blind, but whose brain has learnt to see using sound.

Marcus is shown how babies have remarkable abilities which most of us lose as teenagers. He meets a neuroscientist who claims he has evidence of innate ability, a scientist who's identified a gene for learning, and Dr. Paulus, who has discovered how to sharpen the brain... by electrically turbo-charging it.

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http://documentaries-plus.blogspot.com/2011/10/what-makes-genius.html

MojoRison said:

I was thinking about this and I'm unsure if the tile is even correct, but here goes.Is intelligence genetic or is it learned?I bring up the documented cases of feral children.
Sujit Kumar is one such case, with Oxana Malaya as another, I only mention these to represent a certain view point in the debate.Little buzzed at the moment so.....is this even the right place for this topic?

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Technicaly nature is nurturing so you can't compair them...

And he is a nonviolent person. SAVANT!

I was looking for info on the "new information" arguments of creationists to try to understand this mindset. That investigation led me to some material on epigenetics. Very interesting stuff.

[video=youtube;kp1bZEUgqVI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp1bZEUgqVI[/video]

Very interesting, thanks for that. This is what brought the Human Genome project to a halt. When the sequencing was done, we had a blueprint, we thought, but no. We had a base to show that the methyl markers, the epi or over genome, is the next mystery. The next question to me is to study the epi in chimps. It may show why chimps look very similar but are quite diverse and humans are very different looking but we are not very diverse, genetically.

Then we can breed chicks with bigger tits and smaller fists.

Great love the replies.

I agree that they are working in unison, symbiosis, if I may use it here.

I'm curious of how we are self aware.

In referring to the feral child, I was curious how or why the brain chose to see it's self as chicken, wolf, while getting conflicting sensory input.

I too am very curious about how we are self aware and when did that happen in our lives. Would a Romulus and Remus have a point when they realized they were not wolves? Sure, and the next leap is self aware, but Remus has a twin. Very hard to say, but as a social grouping we end up making abstract totems of power, and invoking the un-seen higher authority. This ex-thority is the proto-Deity.

Did it begin for conflict resolution around the fire pit, or for appeal for protection in conflict between tribes? Or was it just, in the beginning, a superstition to scare kids into staying by the fire, etc? Completely made up, and everyone knew it, except the dirt rats. Me? I favor this last explanation.

IAC, the ex-thority is given credence through physical punishment and fear by the social group and instilled by mental soaking in the pre-verbal infants. All this seems to be something we taught ourselves, in the social group, and by the social group before we became self aware.

Still, today, this is the case. And then there is the question of awareness of Self, which is quite different, imo.

Such is solitude.

A man with no other sentient creature to be found...how will perception with nothing to "mirror" shape such a reality?

People have been doing experiments on monkeys, chimps, dolphins, elephants, and apes as well as humans to test just when we animals gain (if we can) self awareness. I'm sure i could look up some links for videos of this, it's pretty interesting.

Human animals have been known to become self aware as young as the age of two years. The experiment is starts with a sticker, a child, it's parent and a mirror. You put the child in front of the mirror for a while and just watch what it does, in a little while the parent picks up the child and wipes it's nose while putting a colored circular sticker on it's cheek, then sets the child back in front of the mirror. If the child can consciously observe itself in the mirror and takes the sticker off of it's face, it can be said that the child is self aware, aware of the correlation between itself in the mirror, and in real life.

I did some searching and this link is a lot of fun to watch the videos. http://listnation.blogspot.com/2012/03/9-animals-that-are-self-aware.html

I read about an experiment where animals were shown a mirror. Of the animals in the expiriment, only elephants seemed aware that the mirror held a reflection and the rest of the animals seemed to think it was another member of their species. I'll try to find a link but it did include several apes.

I appreciate all this info guys, it's a comforting thought to know there are others here on the boards that share my thirst for knowledge.

Cats? I'm pretty sure they know and don't give a damn.

cats are the only animal I can not understand fully... they look off into space, they bury there shit, and they seem to all have different personality

hexthat said:

Cats? I'm pretty sure they know and don't give a damn.

cats are the only animal I can not understand fully... they look off into space, they bury there shit, and they seem to all have different personality

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Cat shit is also quite the delicacy according to my dog.

abandonconflict said:

Then we can breed chicks with bigger tits and smaller fists.

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And no vocal cords...