More pre-harvest flushing info..

I remember when there was a big debate on a pre-harvest flush and I have recently found some really credible information. It seems its best to lower your ppm for pre-harvest flushing anywhere from Id suppose anywhere from 300-500ppm of nutes if your using reverse osmosis water. If your using tap and or growing in soil I would think the ppm in the tap/soil would be enough. It is said 400-500ppm during flush but im sure you will be fine if those numbers fluctuate a bit. Just dont gorge them late in their life and you wont have lots of stored nutes!

I will be trying this next time just for the simple reason I love trying new things and seeing their outcome. Shoot, thats how you learn! And we are all still doing that no matter the age. If you think you know it all already no matter who you are you are surely mistaken.


MisterIto's nutrient flushing formula

It is best keeping as many leaves green on the plant until week 5 or 6. Then, metabolize the remaining minerals present in the plant during the final 2 or 3 weeks. Total dissolved solids in the final flushing solution is between 400-500ppm. In hydroponics, it is important not to reduce the solution ppm much lower, as this will shock the plants by causing reverse osmotic pressure on the roots. The plant stores excess nutrients in the plant tissue, that are available for photosynthesis. If there is a lack of available nutrients to the roots, the plant will access these reserves and the final product will burn, smell and taste far better.

Summary:

Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing.

mr. green thumb 01 said:

Advanced - Flushing

Standard nutrient flushing (clearing) formula If you are growing with chem ferts like GH flora or similar, you should clear the nutes during the last week of flowering. It will help the plant to use up its reserves stored away in its foliage, this lack of food will force the plant to translocate the extra nitogen and other elements stored in its tissues which will help the final smoke taste much better. No harsh chemical or "green" taste from the excess chlorophyll, nitrogen and other elements in the final smoke. The best way to accomplish this clearing is to feed only water for about the last week (or less) of flowering. Some people add a dash of blackstrap molasses to the clearing water as they believe it helps add to the finished flavors. One teaspoon (5ml) per gallon is the usual dose. If you have been growing the plant on organic nutrients then there is seldom a need to clear the plant since it has not taken up any foul tasting chemical nutrients. The extra N stored in the foliage will have been used up as part of the natural process of final budding. Note: These days there are several products on the "grow store" market which say they help the plants clear chemicals. Botanicare Clearex is one of these which users report great results using. My take is, if its not broke why fix it. Good old water does the trick.

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That paragraph is wrong on a lot of levels but most important on the assumption of "clearing up nutrients stored in the foliage".
Nutrients are not stored in the calyx or any other plant tissue which we smoke.
Nutrients are stored primarily in the roots and the stem(s).
Some nutrients are stored in leaves.

When mobile nutrients are transported to the calyxes they are used up almost instantly unless there is a severe abundance (overfeeding).

Most veteran growers would never achieve such an abundance, most newbies don't even get such an abundance.

By far the main reason for bad tasting weed, bad smelling weed, harsh weed etc. is a bad dry & cure.


But the assumptions made by these people are wrong and not factual. Therefore irrelevant.

Like this one: "No harsh chemical or "green" taste from the excess chlorophyll, nitrogen and other elements in the final smoke."
Chlorophyll is 'cleared' from the dried calyxes by having a proper long drying period followed by a cure with attention to detail (keeping the RH at even levels and steadily bringing it down over a long period of time).


I'd also like to bring up this quote:
"If there is a lack of available nutrients to the roots, the plant will access these reserves and the final product will burn, smell and taste far better."

That is utter nonsense.

The roots are the primary nutrient storage 'unit' of the plant if you will.
The roots are the first tissue of the plant to react to the nutrients available (or missing).
Again, nutrients are not stored in the calyxes (the part of the plant we smoke). There are nutrients stored in the stem and roots primarily.
All you're doing by removing the nutrients is hurting the plant, the most important parts of the plant at that (shocking the roots, breaking the flow through the phloem and xylem and degrading the fan leaves).

Finally,moment common sense

k0ijn said:

That paragraph is wrong on a lot of levels but most important on the assumption of "clearing up nutrients stored in the foliage".
Nutrients are not stored in the calyx or any other plant tissue which we smoke.
Nutrients are stored primarily in the roots and the stem(s).
Some nutrients are stored in leaves.

When mobile nutrients are transported to the calyxes they are used up almost instantly unless there is a severe abundance (overfeeding).

Most veteran growers would never achieve such an abundance, most newbies don't even get such an abundance.

By far the main reason for bad tasting weed, bad smelling weed, harsh weed etc. is a bad dry & cure.


But the assumptions made by these people are wrong and not factual. Therefore irrelevant.

Like this one: "No harsh chemical or "green" taste from the excess chlorophyll, nitrogen and other elements in the final smoke."
Chlorophyll is 'cleared' from the dried calyxes by having a proper long drying period followed by a cure with attention to detail (keeping the RH at even levels and steadily bringing it down over a long period of time).


I'd also like to bring up this quote:
"If there is a lack of available nutrients to the roots, the plant will access these reserves and the final product will burn, smell and taste far better."

That is utter nonsense.

The roots are the primary nutrient storage 'unit' of the plant if you will.
The roots are the first tissue of the plant to react to the nutrients available (or missing).
Again, nutrients are not stored in the calyxes (the part of the plant we smoke). There are nutrients stored in the stem and roots primarily.
All you're doing by removing the nutrients is hurting the plant, the most important parts of the plant at that (shocking the roots, breaking the flow through the phloem and xylem and degrading the fan leaves).

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man, excellent post m8.. i couldn't agree any more.. pretty much spelled the whole thing out...

and doesn't the op find it odd to call what some nutrient company who are trying to sell you one of their products has to say on the subject that they're trying to sell you legitimate?? that's like saying an doesn't lie on it's labels in order to sell you more of it...

Your opinion(s) has been noted but you are disagreeing with people that have more credibility and more experience & knowledge growing cannabis then you so I guess they just pulled that stuff out of their ass's along with everything else on that website. But you apparently are one who knows it all already so it would be pointless for you to try anything different then what you have been doing. Carry on now ya hear.. One love!

Just to add I am one who flushes with PLAIN RO water but I am always willing to try different & new things.

THIS IS HOW WE LEARN

Old people...they never get it...and im getting there myself. Geez, I hope I dont ever close the learning doors on my brain.

Again, one love

This issue can be debated til the cows come home, but the only way to know is to try it both ways. I have and am convinced flushing males no difference

Flush your turds not your plants.

there is no reason to flush...didnt we just discuss this on the ''didnt flush'' thread? FLUSHING IS A WASTE OF TIME AND (more importantly) WASTE OF POTENTIAL YIELD (as your only hurting your plant)...what are you ''flushing'' anyways? how are you going to ''flush'' a plant? does it have a lever like a toilet? dumping an absurd amount of water on a plant isnt called flushing friend, its called ''drowning''


thanks have a wonderful day

Yeah, we "discussed it" and I honestly was on the side on a complete flush and im just saying I found this info and it explains it better then "flushing is for toilets" I could believe dropping to a very low ppm would be best for the plant as its not under to much stress but it is still required to access mobile nutrients. I know the whole "flushing is for toilets" is funny we get it but we are all here to try to learn new things.

aknight3 said:

dumping an absurd amount of water on a plant isnt called flushing friend, its called ''drowning''

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Yes, if you were in dirt you would be essentially drowning the plant. But not if in hydro. So dont go and make assumptions. My plants sit in all water with no medium. Lots of air. No drowning. Giving plain water is flushing it doesnt have to be drowning the plant. Your misunderstanding the concept of flushing or just trying to be funny but its not about dousing it with water or flushing it down a toilet. Its about removing nute build up in the soil thus causing the plant to access and use up some stored mobile elements. Im not saying flush and im not saying dont flush what im saying is LOWER YOUR PPM 1-2 weeks before harvest and you essentially get the both of both worlds. I mean I could be wrong but thats my whole understanding of all that flushing reading I did.

mr. green thumb 01 said:

Your opinion(s) has been noted but you are disagreeing with people that have more credibility and more experience & knowledge growing cannabis then you so I guess they just pulled that stuff out of their ass's along with everything else on that website. But you apparently are one who knows it all already so it would be pointless for you to try anything different then what you have been doing. Carry on now ya hear.. One love!

Just to add I am one who flushes with PLAIN RO water but I am always willing to try different & new things.

THIS IS HOW WE LEARN

Old people...they never get it...and im getting there myself. Geez, I hope I dont ever close the learning doors on my brain.

Again, one love

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I am in no way saying I know everything or that this is my personal opinion.
What I wrote is my professional opinion, it's what science tells us, not what famous authors, website owners and the like, tell us.

I don't know why you would trust authors and website owners (with no formal scientific education) over scientific research on these subjects.
But that is your perogative, all I'm saying is that science has a proper way of going about testing things and is way more trustworhty than personal opinions.

I wouldn't say that these uneducated people who claim to know it all and provide no proof of their findings are more credible and knowledgable than doctors & researchers who have worked their asses off trying to understand nature and underlying facts.
I'm not disagreeing with anyone who has more knowledge or experience than me, I disagree with people who go against science, people who go against facts.

I'm not "closing the learning doors on my brain" (lol). I just don't take information for granted without proper proof.
I don't take everything I read as fact without proper evidence.
If anyone is disregarding fact and evidence, it's you, for trusting random people who have no education on subjects which are so steeply grounded in science (biology, chemistry, plant biology, micro biology etc).

On another note, I'm not sure why you said old people never get it. I'm 26.
I know a lot of old people who can grow better weed than me, experience matters. But in the end, age has nothing to do with this discussion.
What matters is what you choose to follow, science or personal opinion.
The main difference between the two are that one has rigirous testing and requires evidence and research and most importantly peer review, to assert itself.
Personal opinion is what the words hint at, just an opinion, which has no evidence, testing or research behind it.

It's very easy for me to choose which side to put my trust in.

Advanced - Flushing

Standard nutrient flushing (clearing) formula If you are growing with chem ferts like GH flora or similar, you should clear the nutes during the last week of flowering. It will help the plant to use up its reserves stored away in its foliage, this lack of food will force the plant to translocate the extra nitogen and other elements stored in its tissues which will help the final smoke taste much better. No harsh chemical or "green" taste from the excess chlorophyll, nitrogen and other elements in the final smoke. The best way to accomplish this clearing is to feed only water for about the last week (or less) of flowering. Some people add a dash of blackstrap molasses to the clearing water as they believe it helps add to the finished flavors. One teaspoon (5ml) per gallon is the usual dose. If you have been growing the plant on organic nutrients then there is seldom a need to clear the plant since it has not taken up any foul tasting chemical nutrients. The extra N stored in the foliage will have been used up as part of the natural process of final budding. Note: These days there are several products on the "grow store" market which say they help the plants clear chemicals. Botanicare Clearex is one of these which users report great results using. My take is, if its not broke why fix it. Good old water does the trick.

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Finally some real science (not the made up stuff). The information above holds true in my grow room. I use the GH Flora series nutrients, and the preharvest flush helps the end product come out excellent.

Well said k0ijn. I really have nothing against you. But you are only 26 and think your a professional of some sort? Even a professional scientific professor (lol) can be wrong. Some things that were once believed to be true are being disproved every day. Proved by professionals then disproved by professionals so who do you believe? Yourself. So just because you were taught one thing by someone professional does not mean it cant be dis proven later in life. You have to read new things and do your own scientific testing. Your own SCIENTIFIC experiment is good credibility. I am not saying those people are scientist but they are avid growers that talk to many other alike growers and then combine their knowledge and to me thats enough credibility.

Id take a experienced growers advice on cannabis ANY and EVERY day over some scientist. If I read or type scientific one more I may just

So, seriously; when did you get drafted into the pro's?

mr. green thumb 01 said:

Well said k0ijn. I really have nothing against you. But you are only 26 and think your a professional of some sort? Even a professional scientific professor (lol) can be wrong. Some things that were once believed to be true are being disproved every day. Proved by professionals then disproved by professionals so who do you believe? Yourself. So just because you were taught one thing by someone professional does not mean it cant be dis proven later in life. You have to read new things and do your own scientific testing. Your own SCIENTIFIC experiment is good credibility. I am not saying those people are scientist but they are avid growers that talk to many other alike growers and then combine their knowledge and to me that's enough credibility.

Id take a experienced growers advice on cannabis ANY and EVERY day over some scientist. If I read or type scientific one more I may just

So, seriously; when did you get drafted into the pro's?

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It seems like you can't grasp the meaning of the words I'm writing.
It makes me wonder what kind of education you have when you can't understand the words and phrases I use, and it sort of makes this discussion a waste of time.
Saying "professional opinion" is simply stating that I'm giving my "work opinion", the opinion of my profession.
I have a degree in microbiology & biotech. I'm not sure why that should matter since it's not my own opinion on these subjects I'm using, it's the general scientific peer reviewed opinion. I'm not proving it, scientific researchers and doctors with long careers in the field have proven and researched these things, I'm merely passing on the information.

'Professional opinion' is just a statement that means you give your opinion on the basis of the profession you're in (and that research / evidence), not based on personal views. There is nothing called a 'professional scientific professor', again you show your ignorance on the subject. You take the phrase I used (professional opinion) and you think I'm saying I'm a professional scientist, showing exactly how little you understand.

The classification is simply 'professor'.
I'm not saying I'm a professional scientist, there's nothing called that. I'm a scientist.

Again it seems like the words are confusing you.


With regards to your "disproved / proven - who to trust, hypothesis":

There is a difference between a hypothesis and a theory (in regards to science).
A hypothesis is often what is proven right or wrong, a hypothesis is formed by a theorist and then tested thoroughly by experamentalists to see if it holds true.
If the hypothesis is proven correct, it's labeled as a theory. Theories are not often disproved (because they have been rigorously tested and proven).


The understanding of how nutrients are stored and transported around plants is far more recent theory (it's from 2009-2010 with studies still being done as we speak) than the hypothesis of 'pre-harvest flushing'.
All you did was check a recent website and you think you're ahead of the science on the matter.
You thought you were reading more recent views on the subject when in fact you were just reading the same old crap which has been here for years.
I doubt very much whether you have ever read a scientific paper or thesis.

You are misunderstanding how things work in the scientific community.

Theories are not being disproved every day. There is a huge difference here and you have thoroughly misunderstood how peer review and scientific testing works.

You are talking about things being disproved as if we are disproving how plants work and how biology, microbiology and chemistry functions every day.
That is simply not true.
The basis of the theories have been the same found many decades and will never be disproved, because the evidence we have for these theories is so staggering and immense it can never be disproved. It's simply facts.

I think you are mixing up physics and biology.
There are A LOT more hypotheses in physics and a lot more are disproved due to the very weird nature of the subjects of discussion.
You have probably been brainwashed by some faux news channel or website on how science is being disproved every day.
Your assumptions are ridiculous.


No I don't believe things on the basis of myself, I believe in facts. Again you have misunderstood.


No, peoples own experiences and views are not regarded as meaningful in science.
Scientific experiments require strict adherence to rules and regulations.
Most people will never have the funds, knowledge or time to do proper scientific experiments.
If something is shown to work, it has to work for everyone testing it, every time, or it isn't labeled as a fact (assuming the same criterias are adhered to).

The experiments you are doing can never be scientific experiments because by definition they will be splattered with personal opinion and deviations of variables since you don't own a lab or have the proper equipment to do a real scientific experiment where all variables are the same, to a 1000th decimal (if not even more precise).



The people you talk about might talk a lot and combine their knowledge.
But that doesn't make their opinions factual.


Your attitude is very poor, you have misunderstood the meaning of phrases and words I've used and now you're trying to turn it into a spectacle.
If you can't keep this discussion proper and factual then there is nothing to discuss.

Saying "when did you get drafted into the pro's" is an immensely silly and stupid thing to say.
I realize you don't understand how scientific research is conducted or what 'professional opinion' means but to resort to that kind of childish and irrelevant questioning is just a waste of my time.

mr. green thumb 01 said:

Id take a experienced growers advice on cannabis ANY and EVERY day over some scientist. If I read or type scientific one more I may just

So, seriously; when did you get drafted into the pro's?

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I agree 100%. You can question a man's education, but it's hard to deny his real life results. I prefer to take advice from folks getting better results than me, no matter his/her academic level. A baseball bat sized bud seems to trump anyone's text or lambskin.
Long wind does not mean big bud.
Peace, R.

mr. green thumb 01 said:

Yeah, we "discussed it" and I honestly was on the side on a complete flush and im just saying I found this info and it explains it better then "flushing is for toilets" I could believe dropping to a very low ppm would be best for the plant as its not under to much stress but it is still required to access mobile nutrients. I know the whole "flushing is for toilets" is funny we get it but we are all here to try to learn new things.

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yes we did discuss this i beleive, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion but what I am saying is really...flushing IS for toilets, not plants. What im trying to get at here is how do you ''Flush'' a plant? you cant physically make a plant ''use up stored stuff'' or ''access mobile nutrients'' simply by running a bunch of pure water over, under and through the roots you get what im saying? Plants take monthes and monthes and in the wild sometimes years to grow, you cant go inside of a plant and ''take'' ( or in your case, ''flush'') something out of it by putting pure water in. now i dont know when this became a conversation about mediums but i never said anything about dirt or hydroponics or aeroponics or any of that shit. None of these things matter. I dont care what your growing in, running a bunch of pure water through the roots isnt going to change ANYTHING other than taking away the nutrients it would have otherwise used to grow and thus in the end (especially in hydro, since your the one who controls the nutrients) negatively affecting the plant. In dirt maybe not so much cause theres already a NPK present but dude thats a whole entire different discussion, one which im not going to get into it.


Ok, here is maybe a better way to put this. Flushing isnt a ''waste of time'' as much as its a ''complete and utter waste of time''

Now maybe your right someone (including me) CAN learn something new as I am always eager to learn new things and techniques of growing, I am by no means an expert or a pro and it doesnt take the latter to know flushing doesnt do anything. But as far as this matter goes I dont beleive there is anything new to learn, promise k?

funny yet?


ps. after re reading this thread carefully I guess i could slightly agree with lowering your ppm as you get furthur into flower, especially cutting of nitrogen as in the end thats the ''stoord up noots'' everyone is always talking about which makes their shit taste like, well, shit..but in no way does lowering your ppm constitute flushing of a plant. I apologize if im not as detailed in my post explaining this to you as it is 5am and im tired as hell but cant sleep, refer to k0's post, he knows what the hell hes talkin 'bout willis.

pps. i do love you mr g. you are a nice person pls no mean things, i dont say these things to be a dick, i say them to pass along information that i know is true and correct in the hopes someone can benefit from it and learn something new (not saying your new) and not get sucked in to all the ''marawaana grow bible'' crap thats out there. i dont say them to put you or anyone for that matter down, i was new at all this stuff once and people here really seriously showed me the ropes to this game, i think if it werent for rollitup i wouldnt be half as good as i am today and i say that sincerley.

mr. green thumb 01 said:

So, seriously; when did you get drafted into the pro's?

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Ok, now that is some good humor.

K0ijn, man, im just messing with you. You take everything I say to seriously. Remember your the scientist not I. I know everything your saying but your just trying to hard. You science blahblahblah talk means nothing to me. I just wish we could compare the quality of our product and yields of plants up against each other. Then we will see who knows their shit. But that will never happen and all of this is just hear say. No one even knows you are what you say you are. Your not a pro is what I was indirectly saying. You and Simon seem not to understand scarcasim. You guys think because your a scientist with a degree your a professional grower? A professional grower is someone whos pushing out lbs of dank supplying patients all over the country. And at 26 I doubt you are even a good scientist. I guess that makes me the old fogy

Your writings are elaborate yet uninformative. Most of the time all your trying to do is prove someones ignorance. Could you just have a opinion of the flushing topic of LOWERING PPM'S LATE IN THE GROW instead of trying to nit pick every untrue statement in anyones post and then blow it way out of proportion. If you dont agree with a sentence in the post; fine, leave it at that. Also, FYI that was not MY post. It was just a simple copy and paste from a site that has never steered me wrong.. So dont shoot the messenger, ya know!

But lets stay on topic what the thread is really about is lowering the ppm late in flower not stored nutes or accessibility of nutes from the root system all of that is irrelevant to my thread and was just info backing up one growers theory. So, how bout it? Lower ppms? Or more science talk?

aknight3 said:

yes we did discuss this i beleive, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion but what I am saying is really...flushing IS for toilets, not plants. What im trying to get at here is how do you ''Flush'' a plant? you cant physically make a plant ''use up stored stuff'' or ''access mobile nutrients'' simply by running a bunch of pure water over, under and through the roots you get what im saying? Plants take monthes and monthes and in the wild sometimes years to grow, you cant go inside of a plant and ''take'' ( or in your case, ''flush'') something out of it by putting pure water in. now i dont know when this became a conversation about mediums but i never said anything about dirt or hydroponics or aeroponics or any of that shit. None of these things matter. I dont care what your growing in, running a bunch of pure water through the roots isnt going to change ANYTHING other than taking away the nutrients it would have otherwise used to grow and thus in the end (especially in hydro, since your the one who controls the nutrients) negatively affecting the plant. In dirt maybe not so much cause theres already a NPK present but dude thats a whole entire different discussion, one which im not going to get into it.


Ok, here is maybe a better way to put this. Flushing isnt a ''waste of time'' as much as its a ''complete and utter waste of time''

Now maybe your right someone (including me) CAN learn something new as I am always eager to learn new things and techniques of growing, I am by no means an expert or a pro and it doesnt take the latter to know flushing doesnt do anything. But as far as this matter goes I dont beleive there is anything new to learn, promise k?

funny yet?


ps. after re reading this thread carefully I guess i could slightly agree with lowering your ppm as you get furthur into flower, especially cutting of nitrogen as in the end thats the ''stoord up noots'' everyone is always talking about which makes their shit taste like, well, shit..but in no way does lowering your ppm constitute flushing of a plant. I apologize if im not as detailed in my post explaining this to you as it is 5am and im tired as hell but cant sleep, refer to k0's post, he knows what the hell hes talkin 'bout willis.

pps. i do love you mr g. you are a nice person pls no mean things, i dont say these things to be a dick, i say them to pass along information that i know is true and correct in the hopes someone can benefit from it and learn something new (not saying your new) and not get sucked in to all the ''marawaana grow bible'' crap thats out there. i dont say them to put you or anyone for that matter down, i was new at all this stuff once and people here really seriously showed me the ropes to this game, i think if it werent for rollitup i wouldnt be half as good as i am today and i say that sincerely.

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Ahh.. good input. Informative and mature. I will reread when I have a min and reply. No offense taken really! I rarely take offense to anything anyone says until they start name calling. Then I attack. One Love!

Okay I read it good again...ol lady was giving me crap before Gotta love her. She puts up with me lmao!!

Okay serious time.. You are dead on with your view on flushing. Of course a flush is not a instant removal of nutrients it takes time to make the plant withdraw nutrients from its self. I kind of assumed everyone knew that though...Thats why they flush 1-2 weeks before harvest, and not the day of harvesting. Take away the residual nutes in the soil(flush) then feed plain water and you cause the plant to access its stores. Right? Thats what I always thought...Or better yet science guys thats what I was TAUGHT! lollol because "that's what science tells us" lol okay to many jokes Mr.GT back on topic...

Flushing apparently is the wrong term. How does plant autosarcophagy sound? You science guys will like to hear that! Thats when one eats its self. (save you from looking that up) Flushing is just a term for making nutes unavailable to the plant from the roots.

mr. green thumb 01 said:

Ahh.. good input. Informative and mature. I will reread when I have a min and reply. No offense taken really! I rarely take offense to anything anyone says until they start name calling. Then I attack. One Love!

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good your a good guy mr g, i will check out your grow if you have one on here when i get time soon +rep