Kind x750 , when should I start introducing the red/uv/ir ?

As the title says , when should I flip that second switch ? I have 3 smaller plants that are in flower , and 4 larger plants that are pre flowering and stretching . Should I wait till they’re done stretching , then start at 25% , and raise 25% weekly ? These are autoflowers who have beeen getting 100% light since week 2 , and are now half way through week 5

The plants in the tray are flowering “on the floor in the middle” , the two in the rear are the furthest out .
Also will introducing the reds, keep them from stretching to much ? I’m concerned the back two might be in my light by the time this grow is over -
I’ve always grown with a fluence spydr 2i , which produced amazing results, at 630w - but a friend gave me the kind x750 , and I gotta say - I think it’s better . The fluence was full spectrum and more fine tune-able , so I never had a red switch to kick on . Any advice is appreciated

Using a blue heavy spectrum is helpful because blue light inhibits cell expansion so a veg light will keep plants short and compact with limited internodal space. If those characteristics are important to you, leave the blue channel on in veg and then flip on the red channel when you want to stop making your plants short and compact.

The color of the light has nothing to do with plant being in flower-that's driven by the light schedule.

Kind lights do not give off "a lot" of light. Kind has taken a different strategy with their lights than most other manufacturers and, if you look at a PFFD map from their lights, the light output is significantly lower than the light output from a light from say, Mars, that uses a driver with similar input wattage.

Light color shapes plants - blue makes plants short, far red (730) makes cells elongate. In terms of yield, there's very little difference between, say, red photons and green photons. There is a difference that's measurable in a lab but, at light levels that growers use, the difference is small enough to be insignificant. With that in mind, if you want maximum yield, forget about the using the blue and then red channels-Kind's light simply don't put out that many photons. On the other hand, if you follow their guidelines, you're going to get a good crop but you may be reducing your yield by 10-15%.

I'm not trying to scare you off from using Kind lights yield is a function of how many photons strike the canopy over the life of a plant and the color of the light is not important.

Light "quality" (color) shapes a plant. Light quantity drives yield and quality.

And re. a light being "amazing". Nah. It really is a function of the entire grow environment. If the environment is good and you're putting 1k µmol on your plants, you're going to get a lot of weed.

Oh, re. light levels - no need to increase slowly.

The worst guidance I've seen on this is the tripe that served up at growlightmeter.com. They have a really nice chart that indicates that you should decrease light levels at the start of flower. There's simply no reason to do so. When I contacted them about citations for their recommendations, the reply was to check the footer of each page. Ugh.

Crop yield increases in an almost linear manner as light levels increase.

Below are my PPFD values for my current grow. They're pretty much how I light all of my grows. I use Growcraft X3 lights, a veg light for a few weeks to shape the plant and then their flower light. I added a set of Vipar R80's a few weeks back and am getting about 300µmol from them for only 80 watts. That's allowed me to turn my Growcraft flower light down from 300 to 170 and get at least the same PPFD (red diodes are very electrically efficient).



And autos - they're beasts! I run my autos at these light levels for 20/4 and yields are excellent.

I was seeing 700 ppfd on 50% off the one channel during eeek 2 . I’ve since been running 100%. Before I saw this response i turned the red side on yesterday . 25% and they responded instantly by praying and stretching their asses off . My canopy sss pretty well even across the back 2 plants 28 hours ago . Now they look like this ! I’m expecting heavy yields form the rear ward 2 plants .

honestly I ran a 650w fluence spydr 2i previously and I had good results , but the kind with co2 has been a game changer for me .

my big mistake first grow was listening to all the experts claiming autos used 1/2 the light and nutrients of a photo . I had 4 autos that cannabilized but still yielded 1.5 ounces short of a lb . My smallest auto in the auto pots iss outgrowing my largest already compared to end of flower

I treated them as a photo and they responded wonderfully . Lots of light , lots of co2 and 1600ppm , “400ppm is my well water “
next Friday I’ll increase reds to 50% , and following week increase again .

Compared to my last grow I meant to say . My smallest this grow up front is larger than any of the 4 form the last grow - that yielded 14.5

DoubleD5374 said:

I was seeing 700 ppfd on 50% off the one channel during eeek 2 . I’ve since been running 100%. Before I saw this response i turned the red side on yesterday . 25% and they responded instantly by praying and stretching their asses off . My canopy sss pretty well even across the back 2 plants 28 hours ago . Now they look like this ! I’m expecting heavy yields form the rear ward 2 plants .

honestly I ran a 650w fluence spydr 2i previously and I had good results , but the kind with co2 has been a game changer for me .

my big mistake first grow was listening to all the experts claiming autos used 1/2 the light and nutrients of a photo . I had 4 autos that cannabilized but still yielded 1.5 ounces short of a lb . My smallest auto in the auto pots iss outgrowing my largest already compared to end of flower

I treated them as a photo and they responded wonderfully . Lots of light , lots of co2 and 1600ppm , “400ppm is my well water “
next Friday I’ll increase reds to 50% , and following week increase again .

Click to expand...

Very interesting info. I appreciate you posting it.

Last point first - if your PPFD is in range, there's no reason to no use 100% red. Traditionally, growers used blue heavy lights in veg (was it CMH?) and then red heavy (HPS) in flower. Blue keeps plants short, limited internodal space, strong branches, and small leaves. Red (660nm) doesn't have any specific impact on morphology (plant shape and structure) but red diodes are electrically efficient. (It's far red, at 730nm, that causes cell expansion).

Below are the spectra for a Mars LED from ad and the spectrum for an HPS light.



And these that I grabbed from random hits from Google.






This graphic is from the YTY video at the bottom of the image. Though you can't see the % from the HPS spectra, the numbers for the different lights are shown here and the HPS spectrum has 4% red. Interestingly, that same 4% values the value that Bugbee talks about in one of his videos as being the least amount of blue needed to ensure that plants don't grow with deformities.

A huge amount of cannabis has been flowered with very nigh % of red and almost no blue. Given that fact, I can't see an argument to not use more red.



One advantage of using more red is that you get more photons for a given amount of electrical input. I added a pair of Vipar R80's to my grow a grow weeks back. I'm getting about 300µmol of 660nm light from them. They draw 80 watts of power but I've been able to turn down the dimmer on my Growcraft X3 from 300 watts to 170 watts.

Here are spectra for my Growcraft:



Even though it's a "flower" light, there's a fair amount of blue. But I'm adding 300µmol of 660. Per below, the deep red diodes are electorally efficient so I'm using less power, getting more photons, and the temperature in my tent is down about 2°.




The latter point is very important. And here's why:

Another screenshot from the Westmoreland video. He recommends that growers use temps up to 85° in veg and in the early stages of flower. In those phases of plant growth, the goal is to create the maximum amount of infrastructure and so going up to 85 (or maybe 87) will maximize vegetative growth.

Once growth stops (vegetative growth continues up to about the second week of "flower"), keep temps below 78° in order to stop secondary metabolites from being "obliterated". That's pretty much the phrase that he used in his 2021 video but he doesn't go there in the videos that he put out last year. If you check for the old videos (he looks like a wet behind the ears kid just there years ago!). you'll see him talk about the research that he did back then.

Lotsa info to substantiate my recommendation but, as far as I can tell, it's based on the best research that we have on cannabis.



And it is the path that I followed.

Earlier this summer, I decided to retire my Growcraft flower light because it's an older design and the PPFD map isn't as flat as I'd like. I spent a lot of time looking for lights and even bought, tested, and returned a Mars SP 3000R which is their (flamethrower), pure red greenhouse flower light. The PPFD map is unsuited for use in a 2' x 4' tent and the heat output was very high so back it went.

I was resigned to making do with my Growcraft until someone raised the idea of using supplements lighting. I had given them a pass when they first came out because they were being sold without PPFD maps and I have little interest in a light that doesn't have a PPFD map.

Fortunately, vendors are publishing PPFD maps and, as soon as I saw what the Spider R80 would do, I bought them. Per the photo below. the R80's are nestled between the light bars of the X3. (The light on the left is a Mars SP3000 that I retired when I bought the Growcraft. It's running at 60watts, just enough to light up the front part of the plant.)

All in all, get the PPFD up to 1k± and as you use more red, your electricity bill with tend to drop. you'll get more photons, and more growth.

Delps8 said:

Very interesting info. I appreciate you posting it.

Last point first - if your PPFD is in range, there's no reason to no use 100% red. Traditionally, growers used blue heavy lights in veg (was it CMH?) and then red heavy (HPS) in flower. Blue keeps plants short, limited internodal space, strong branches, and small leaves. Red (660nm) doesn't have any specific impact on morphology (plant shape and structure) but red diodes are electrically efficient. (It's far red, at 730nm, that causes cell expansion).

Below are the spectra for a Mars LED from ad and the spectrum for an HPS light.

View attachment 5443979

And these that I grabbed from random hits from Google.
View attachment 5443982


View attachment 5443983


This graphic is from the YTY video at the bottom of the image. Though you can't see the % from the HPS spectra, the numbers for the different lights are shown here and the HPS spectrum has 4% red. Interestingly, that same 4% values the value that Bugbee talks about in one of his videos as being the least amount of blue needed to ensure that plants don't grow with deformities.

A huge amount of cannabis has been flowered with very nigh % of red and almost no blue. Given that fact, I can't see an argument to not use more red.

View attachment 5443984

One advantage of using more red is that you get more photons for a given amount of electrical input. I added a pair of Vipar R80's to my grow a grow weeks back. I'm getting about 300µmol of 660nm light from them. They draw 80 watts of power but I've been able to turn down the dimmer on my Growcraft X3 from 300 watts to 170 watts.

Here are spectra for my Growcraft:

View attachment 5443987

Even though it's a "flower" light, there's a fair amount of blue. But I'm adding 300µmol of 660. Per below, the deep red diodes are electorally efficient so I'm using less power, getting more photons, and the temperature in my tent is down about 2°.

View attachment 5443986


The latter point is very important. And here's why:

Another screenshot from the Westmoreland video. He recommends that growers use temps up to 85° in veg and in the early stages of flower. In those phases of plant growth, the goal is to create the maximum amount of infrastructure and so going up to 85 (or maybe 87) will maximize vegetative growth.

Once growth stops (vegetative growth continues up to about the second week of "flower"), keep temps below 78° in order to stop secondary metabolites from being "obliterated". That's pretty much the phrase that he used in his 2021 video but he doesn't go there in the videos that he put out last year. If you check for the old videos (he looks like a wet behind the ears kid just there years ago!). you'll see him talk about the research that he did back then.

Lotsa info to substantiate my recommendation but, as far as I can tell, it's based on the best research that we have on cannabis.

View attachment 5443988

And it is the path that I followed.

Earlier this summer, I decided to retire my Growcraft flower light because it's an older design and the PPFD map isn't as flat as I'd like. I spent a lot of time looking for lights and even bought, tested, and returned a Mars SP 3000R which is their (flamethrower), pure red greenhouse flower light. The PPFD map is unsuited for use in a 2' x 4' tent and the heat output was very high so back it went.

I was resigned to making do with my Growcraft until someone raised the idea of using supplements lighting. I had given them a pass when they first came out because they were being sold without PPFD maps and I have little interest in a light that doesn't have a PPFD map.

Fortunately, vendors are publishing PPFD maps and, as soon as I saw what the Spider R80 would do, I bought them. Per the photo below. the R80's are nestled between the light bars of the X3. (The light on the left is a Mars SP3000 that I retired when I bought the Growcraft. It's running at 60watts, just enough to light up the front part of the plant.)

All in all, get the PPFD up to 1k± and as you use more red, your electricity bill with tend to drop. you'll get more photons, and more growth.
View attachment 5443991

Click to expand...

Wow man thank you very much . That’s a ton of very useful information with plenty of reasoning as to “why”

I really cant believe the rate at which these are growing . I had 10 foot wide , 10 foot tall monsters in direct sunlight this years outdoors “perfect season” - and if I saw 1.5-2 inches of growth in 24 hours , it was substantial . These plants are definitely surpassing that . I’m fairly confident that I’m going to have issues getting my light high enough . Good problem to have haha .

DoubleD5374 said:

Wow man thank you very much . That’s a ton of very useful information with plenty of reasoning as to “why”

I really cant believe the rate at which these are growing . I had 10 foot wide , 10 foot tall monsters in direct sunlight this years outdoors “perfect season” - and if I saw 1.5-2 inches of growth in 24 hours , it was substantial . These plants are definitely surpassing that . I’m fairly confident that I’m going to have issues getting my light high enough . Good problem to have haha .

Click to expand...

10' x 10' - wow. Yeh, that's perfect weather. What part of the country?

2" growth - I hear ya. Adding in red and dropping blue is a twofer. With very few blue photons, you're removing the photons that inhibit cell expansion and replacing them with 30% more (watt per watt) red photons.

Re. head space - that can be an issue. That's where blue photons in veg help.

I think this plant was 36" wide but only about 24" tall.


If you are running out of room near the light, you can "super crop" the stems. There's got to be a YT video on how to do that.

"Good problem to have haha ." - yup!

Delps8 said:

10' x 10' - wow. Yeh, that's perfect weather. What part of the country?

2" growth - I hear ya. Adding in red and dropping blue is a twofer. With very few blue photons, you're removing the photons that inhibit cell expansion and replacing them with 30% more (watt per watt) red photons.

Re. head space - that can be an issue. That's where blue photons in veg help.

I think this plant was 36" wide but only about 24" tall.
View attachment 5444034

If you are running out of room near the light, you can "super crop" the stems. There's got to be a YT video on how to do that.

"Good problem to have haha ." - yup!

Click to expand...

I actually started crushing and bending them to a 90 a week and a half ago - problem is they literally would heal overnight and be praying the following day haha .
I live in northern NY , and we had an amazing summer - the fall got rough - because of a lot of rain right towards the end of my harvest - but we had 80-90* weather almost daily , and it rained 11 days from may to August here total which is unheard of !
I started my seeds may 15th and harvested my photoperiods , the 3rd week of September on one strain , and my gorilla glue didn’t finish till early November .
Ironically I cut clones for someone , and they bailed out on them - for their indoor grow , so I planted them fully rooted on July 21st , and by the end of October they were 9 foot tall - but skinny so to speak . People said that anytime later than mid June was too late , and while I agree - if you’re expecting mega yields , in my situation it was worth the extra 10 lbs to plant the 50 clones in the ground .

I’m very early in pre flower , i have about 22-24 inches of light space left before they reach it . Hopefully they slow up a little and just push more tops haha . This next week will tell me a ton for sure !

i have a grow journal , on here as well . I cranked the reds today and they definitely took offense to it . Ironically it was the shorter acid snows that showed signs of light bleaching , and not the taller boss battles . I’m sure tomorrow morning they’ll look right as rain once again .

Delps8 said:

Oh, re. light levels - no need to increase slowly.

The worst guidance I've seen on this is the tripe that served up at growlightmeter.com. They have a really nice chart that indicates that you should decrease light levels at the start of flower. There's simply no reason to do so. When I contacted them about citations for their recommendations, the reply was to check the footer of each page. Ugh.

Crop yield increases in an almost linear manner as light levels increase.

Below are my PPFD values for my current grow. They're pretty much how I light all of my grows. I use Growcraft X3 lights, a veg light for a few weeks to shape the plant and then their flower light. I added a set of Vipar R80's a few weeks back and am getting about 300µmol from them for only 80 watts. That's allowed me to turn my Growcraft flower light down from 300 to 170 and get at least the same PPFD (red diodes are very electrically efficient).

View attachment 5443905

And autos - they're beasts! I run my autos at these light levels for 20/4 and yields are excellent.

Click to expand...

I see you keep putting everybody's else work and knowledge down and praise your own as gospel when you don't have enough experience and data to even support your own claims? More light is not better if the plant can't use it optimally. A plant doesn't grow faster by bli dly focusing on numbers and ignoring plant responses to stress.

A spreadsheet showing your own light output won't help anyone else's grow out. I think you focus more on numbers than plant response and that is a problem when you choose to help other people out. Have you ever done any side by sides comparisons doing different light schedules and intensitites or are you just supporting your own numbers from your closet grows?

Wastei said:

I see you keep putting everybody's else work and knowledge down and praise your own as gospel when you don't have enough experience and data to even support your own claims? More light is not better if the plant can't use it optimally. A plant doesn't grow faster by bli dly focusing on numbers and ignoring plant responses to stress.

A spreadsheet showing your own light output won't help anyone else's grow out. I think you focus more on numbers than plant response and that is a problem when you choose to help other people out. Have you ever done any side by sides comparisons doing different light schedules and intensitites or are you just supporting your own numbers from your closet grows?

Click to expand...

I think the reason I can handle so much light , EC, etc is because of optimal temps and a lot of co2 . The growth has been very very vigorous . I just super cropped 20 tops before this picture today , I need to pull each plant out and give it a work over to open airflow , and allow better light spread to all flower sites .