Is far red dead

2cent

2cent

Well-Known Member
Seems all posts on far red initiators are latest posts 2020 on google
non recently so does that mean the far red has been scrapped as an idea for Emerson ?
if it took off good you would see it allover by now surely not just hidden deep in the web and for sale on a few pages

I’d expect by now to see led sales saying don’t forget your far red strips with your order etc

can’t even find solid advice on using them with Correct tested times etc
 
DCcan

DCcan

Well-Known Member
Probably too much work and money for little return for maunufacturers, researchers and end users.
Some mega-warehouse leafy green grow ops in Holland and Middle East use it, but different crop makes it more efficient to use.
 
furbolg

furbolg

Well-Known Member
good question. I remember when the far red thread was the most poppin' thread in this forum.

personally I never adopted it. Out of laziness and contentment. I did however hop on the UV bandwagon. Used reptile bulbs for a couple years. Then stopped ordering them. Over time my grow has grossly simplified itself out of convenience.

I saw HLG released a new lamp with far red. I bet there are a ton of people still using it.

 
RetiredToker76

RetiredToker76

Well-Known Member
HLG is still selling B-spec and R-Spec lights and boards.

I have a Bspec 130w quantum board for veg and a Rspec 330 for flower that I've been using since late 2019, when both my T5 fixture and my hps ballast died within 3 months of each other. Since they're still being sold, I wouldn't be willing to call them dead. If anything the wanderlust is over.

Using the Photone app on my phone to measure the lights I have noticed that if I run the R-spec lights on veg plants at the same intensity I run the b-spec lights that I'll get a line of burn across the leaves that doesn't happen anymore after I flip to 12/12. The deep red diodes running at the same power as the daylight diodes isn't the 'best' setup, but I've been very happy with the yields and quality. It just took a slight learning curve of how to tune them for the two weeks I run the plants under the red lights while sill keeping them on the veg schedule.

As far as being dead, no. Just the "Boom - WOW" of the advertisements are going away. I've seen some newer lights have the have separate intensity dials for the reds vs the rest the light, which IMO is a good idea given my experience with the HLG boards.

Think of it like autotune in music, very few performers are using it 100% of the time and abusing the effect like they were 15~ years ago. Now they use it more like a spice, every once they'll bring it out subtly for effect and nuance, but not write a whole album sounding like Kilroy the robot. We've been "adding" red to lights for decades, HPS leaned heavier red than MH, and manufacturers pushed both bulb chemistries as far in their respective color direction as they could.

Doing it with LEDs is just the same dance over again.
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
RetiredToker76 said:
HLG is still selling B-spec and R-Spec lights and boards.

I have a Bspec 130w quantum board for veg and a Rspec 330 for flower that I've been using since late 2019, when both my T5 fixture and my hps ballast died within 3 months of each other. Since they're still being sold, I wouldn't be willing to call them dead. If anything the wanderlust is over.

Using the Photone app on my phone to measure the lights I have noticed that if I run the R-spec lights on veg plants at the same intensity I run the b-spec lights that I'll get a line of burn across the leaves that doesn't happen anymore after I flip to 12/12. The deep red diodes running at the same power as the daylight diodes isn't the 'best' setup, but I've been very happy with the yields and quality. It just took a slight learning curve of how to tune them for the two weeks I run the plants under the red lights while sill keeping them on the veg schedule.

As far as being dead, no. Just the "Boom - WOW" of the advertisements are going away. I've seen some newer lights have the have separate intensity dials for the reds vs the rest the light, which IMO is a good idea given my experience with the HLG boards.

Think of it like autotune in music, very few performers are using it 100% of the time and abusing the effect like they were 15~ years ago. Now they use it more like a spice, every once they'll bring it out subtly for effect and nuance, but not write a whole album sounding like Kilroy the robot. We've been "adding" red to lights for decades, HPS leaned heavier red than MH, and manufacturers pushed both bulb chemistries as far in their respective color direction as they could.

Doing it with LEDs is just the same dance over again.
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You are confusing farred (730nm) with 660nm diodes.
But I'm surprised this little 660 should burn your leaves.
Though the SPD lacks 730 which serves a photoprotective role. Around the core of PSI there are some darkred chlorophyls which subtract heat once farred-photons get photochemically processed.
Screenshot_20220717-223633~2.png

@2cent
there's a number of professional manufacturers that have it into their SPD constantly, among them are SANlight, GrowLightsAustralia, Bloomstar, Koray, Sylvania, Greenception

Bugbee did a number of studies regarding it and many effects are throughly confirmed.

Just saw this new board today, that SPD use 5 different diodes for completion
Screenshot_20220717-185011~2.png
There's soon more boards being released to close the cyan-gap.
 
Comparator

Comparator

Well-Known Member
2cent said:
Seems all posts on far red initiators are latest posts 2020 on google
non recently so does that mean the far red has been scrapped as an idea for Emerson ?
if it took off good you would see it allover by now surely not just hidden deep in the web and for sale on a few pages

I’d expect by now to see led sales saying don’t forget your far red strips with your order etc

can’t even find solid advice on using them with Correct tested times etc
Click to expand...
Be careful what you read. For a Horticultural fixture is only so w/ far-red, n/ir, 730+nm, balanced to the rest. I use fully Tunable broad spectrum & it's a must. Early Veg, not totally necessary. Germination, yes. My clone light for instance has No far red. Damn, I thought the majority would finally agree it's a must? Haven't kept up with the times I guess.
Another solid practice I recommend is using a true Horticultural SSL (Sole Source Lighting) LES. All-In-One is the only way to go if starting. Many manufacturers will insist on their x2, 36", overpowered strips to put between your x6-x8 bar fixture. Then give you the wrong wavelength combos to be worked in together in untimely ways. Try asking how and why to use them. See if it lines up. Good luck! Afterthought, pricey supplemental done right is going to be a wire mess to do right & the more channels they give you, the more you're apt to fail. Their hopes are all the Guinee Pigging will lead to an optimized Veg+Bloom spectrum. These 4+ channel lights of monos or white (still defficient while overabundant) are more for scientific purposes & studies to determine the optimal spectras that some have been using for awhile. Now tunable, promising the grower much better results then their misunderstood x6 channel. This is why say the Scorpion RSpec for $500 less & a .5or.6 umol/j difference to the Scorpion Diablo means squat. The RSpect (Scorpion only) will win in yields & quality every time. If on QB's, yeah the Scorpion layout will work better in any situation. But hey, they only want you to focus on how many diodes they can cram on too of each other to temporarily get the highest Umol/j in a sphere. Just be careful is all grower!
 
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Comparator

Comparator

Well-Known Member
Kassiopeija said:
You are confusing farred (730nm) with 660nm diodes.
But I'm surprised this little 660 should burn your leaves.
Though the SPD lacks 730 which serves a photoprotective role. Around the core of PSI there are some darkred chlorophyls which subtract heat once farred-photons get photochemically processed.
View attachment 5165015

@2cent
there's a number of professional manufacturers that have it into their SPD constantly, among them are SANlight, GrowLightsAustralia, Bloomstar, Koray, Sylvania, Greenception

Bugbee did a number of studies regarding it and many effects are throughly confirmed.

Just saw this new board today, that SPD use 5 different diodes for completion
View attachment 5165021
There's soon more boards being released to close the cyan-gap.
Click to expand...
The Cyan Gap is so important to fill. Amares been down it since "13" w/ far red. That made a big difference comparatively. Right on man!
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Think Bugbee is spot-on except his rebuttal of the Lighting Commite's rejection seems to miss their points raised.
The farred alone won't do much although many colours when used in a strict monochromatic setup also won't grow normally.
But yeah, the Emerson-enhancement is based on the background light, both in terms of spectrum & relative strength to >700nm.
 

Attachments

Comparator

Comparator

Well-Known Member
Kassiopeija said:
Think Bugbee is spot-on except his rebuttal of the Lighting Commite's rejection seems to miss their points raised.
The farred alone won't do much although many colours when used in a strict monochromatic setup also won't grow normally.
But yeah, the Emerson-enhancement is based on the background light, both in terms of spectrum & relative strength to >700nm.
Click to expand...
Bruce B. Provided false information about far-red for far to long for me to even look at his findings or assumptions now, right ir wrong.
There's so much more to it then many understand still. It's an absolute necessity to raise healthy plants & preserve genetics.
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Comparator said:
Bruce B. Provided false information about far-red for far to long
Click to expand...
could you please elaborate on that? Because that sounds rather quite negative...

In the above mini-review I think I can just make out a bit of frustration when his definition of ePAR as PAR-replacement got refused.
But everything else is spot on, and he cites studies beginning with Emerson '57. There's far more, esp. the ones done on shade-light environment aren't even touched
 
Comparator

Comparator

Well-Known Member
Kassiopeija said:
could you please elaborate on that? Because that sounds rather quite negative...

In the above mini-review I think I can just make out a bit of frustration when his definition of ePAR as PAR-replacement got refused.
But everything else is spot on, and he cites studies beginning with Emerson '57. There's far more, esp. the ones done on shade-light environment aren't even touched
Click to expand...
Where was his reference to original 1957 Docs over all these yrs then. Why just now when its the oldest proven news & easiest one to determine w/ a simple sbs for any manufacturer. But the scientist said not useful then. Not in par, ect... crap. They say what suites them when it suits them for whatever reasons, usually personal gains of some sort. It was his first two videos that turned me off. "Far Red the forgotten Photon" & another, been awhile. I'm sure he's sharing more meaningful information now, some yrs. later. With spectrums being made based on scientists or a scientists recommendation for so long, growers have been suffering under led since Nasa burple. Why do you think every spectrum is just another version of itself & none of them (the majority wh/+r or the 450/660 w/ the green hump) are that good when actually compared to one created through real R+D by the actual manufacturer designing the spectrum. It's sad really.
Funny thing is all the information that will be shared over the next 5-10yrs about spectrum and everyone will oh n ahh to upgrade their defficient light, has been publicly available for decades. Lol!
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Comparator said:
Where was his reference to original 1957 Docs over all these yrs then. Why just now when its the oldest proven news & easiest one to determine w/ a simple sbs for any manufacturer. But the scientist said not useful then. Not in par, ect... crap. They say what suites them when it suits them for whatever reasons, usually personal gains of some sort. It was his first two videos that turned me off. "Far Red the forgotten Photon" & another, been awhile. I'm sure he's sharing more meaningful information now, some yrs. later. With spectrums being made based on scientists or a scientists recommendation for so long, growers have been suffering under led since Nasa burple. Why do you think every spectrum is just another version of itself & none of them (the majority wh/+r or the 450/660 w/ the green hump) are that good when actually compared to one created through real R+D by the actual manufacturer designing the spectrum. It's sad really.
Funny thing is all the information that will be shared over the next 5-10yrs about spectrum and everyone will oh n ahh to upgrade their defficient light, has been publicly available for decades. Lol!
Click to expand...
Yeah well in way it's because photon output (fixture efficacy) beats spectrum. The speed of the "light-reaction" is 100 times faster than the biochemical processes to store the energy into NADPH ATP. So even a shitty slow spec will grow "ok" if it doesn't break other plant responses. The scientist can show some blurple specs are actually -situationally- better than whites but then there's customer demands and a necessity to see leaves in green.

So the horti manufacturers use whatever good diodes are available to them in their umol-chase. With most of the stated numbers are actually exaggerated.
The 730 is outside of PAR 400-700nm so doesn't even weigh into PPFD-plots done by quantum meters that cutoff at 692nm.

Yes, you are right in the future with better diodes I believe it will change more into more red, and also an extended blue, and broader UV...
Screenshot_20220404-203004~2.png
Comparator said:
But the scientist said not useful then. Not in par, ect... crap
Click to expand...
Yeah lol 3 generations got brainwashed by McCree and his famous curve! ;)
You see how tough it can be to go against the accepted norm.
 
Comparator

Comparator

Well-Known Member
I understand. Though Spectrums make up everything that counts when balanced with electrical Efficiency. A less electrically efficient fixture of the same design, say a 2.4-umol/j vs a 3.0-2 can/will yeild an easy 30% more of higher bag appeal & doubled up labs in every department w/7-20% increases in thc-consistentaly. That's your ROI comparitively each n every grow (4x4) while having your work be selected n possibily paid an increase over everyone else's. Idk about you, but in today's day n age, we/I need every advantage I can get. Spectrum easily replaces allot of chemicals growers use in attempt to match bag appeal n Aroma. That's the 200 cannabonoid connector. Unfortunately what they have the majority believing is the standard white+660 is an optimized spectrum w/ or w/o ypf or uva/far red, ePar, Pbar, whatever they wanna call it. If the base or foundation is off then the rest will never be as good as it can be. All thr info is out there. Selective sharing & seeing is the issue. Lack of true r+d just as much.
 
Comparator

Comparator

Well-Known Member
If there's only one company doing it right. I know that sounds pompous bit look at thr facts. The only company with a bunch of Horticultural testing to comparecto os Viola & a very few others. Even those claiming knowledge on spectral recipes are only offering 450+660 in different ratios & usually with an overabundance of white & maybe a few far red or uvas. Vyola claims superiority in regatds to spectrum yet you know who understands spectral significance a hell of allot more. Violas fixtures are overpriced, underbuilt less efficienct in both departments yet get to claim spectral masters with bogus, defficient lights recipes. So, no, I can't think of any true competitors, can you???


ile charging very low cost for premium build & results how can one describe the fixture if everyone gets butt hurt over the advances since day one. Am I wrong? You know that company has been a decade ahead of its time. Only due to computers & tech advances will the gap close from 10 to 5 to 3 yrs ahead as others that are reverse engineering their hard work as we speak. Get real guys. Show some respect for a man that put it all out there to help others. Wtf , SMH! Sad.
 
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