In defense of the bailout and the Federal Reserve

Doctor Pot

Well-Known Member
I know it's counterintuitive, but essentially printing money as a means to fend off the recession is actually the best thing to do right now. I'm sure people will disagree with me, but it's true. The reason is that the value of the dollar is based on how much people want it vs. how many dollars are in people's possession. I'll get to why this is important later. Right now, a lot of people are trying to get money, and a lot of people lost money in the housing market bubble, so there is less money circulating than usual. This means, we're actually in a period of deflation. The value of the dollar has been increasing lately. It's true! That is not actually a good thing though because it makes people pull their money out of investments.

Now, you might be thinking, if all these people lost money in the bubble, then where did it go? The answer is that it didn't actually go anywhere, it "disappeared" as house values fell. This might seem counterintuitive because we like to think of money as something tangible, but it's more of a system of debt and credit. I can put $1000 in the bank, and then the bank can loan that money to another guy. I have $1000 in the bank, and that guy has $1000 in his hand. So did the money just double? No, because the bank owes me $1000 and that other guy owes the bank $1000, so it balances out. Accountants have found some pretty creative ways to generate money by loaning it to themselves, this is how companies like Enron and Worldcom operated. That's illegal of course, but not impossible.

Now, the Federal Reserve works by controlling the supply of money, so as to keep its value stable. It's the only entity that can legally generate money out of thin air. It also loans money to the Federal Government pretty much whenever they ask. Of course, if too much money is generated, the value of the dollar falls. But right now, the value of the dollar is going up, so you can actually generate money in a situation like this without having massive inflation. Of course, generating money like this raises the national debt, but the debt is only to the Federal Reserve, which won't actually make the government pay it back.

Now, US dollars used to be backed by gold, and money used to be in the form of precious metals in general. This worked well because these metals are rare, impossible to counterfeit, and easily transported. But, the price of any commodity can change drastically based on availability. For instance, during gold rushes, the value of gold has gone down as supply increased, at least in the vicinity of the gold rush. And during a bank run, the value of gold skyrockets as everyone tries to withdraw their gold from the bank. Modern communications have only made this worse, as news of a bank run could spread coast to coast in seconds. Even today, the price of precious metals fluctuates drastically over the course of days or weeks. But the value of the dollar stays pretty stable. Because the dollar isn't backed by anything, that makes it a lot easier for the Federal Reserve to control its value, and keep it fairly stable.

Now, I'm sure there's plenty of Zeitgeist fans here who are going to insist that the Federal Reserve is controlling the money supply so as to control the country. This is sort of true, but they're by no means malevolent about it. They're on your side, honest! Everyone wants the economy to do well, and everyone wants the value of the dollar to remain stable, including the Federal Reserve.

I know defending the status quo isn't really popular here, but I think it's important to know the facts, or at least the reasoning behind the government's decisions.
 

mexiblunt

Well-Known Member
Just one question? Why won't the federal reserve actually make them pay it back? seems funny. Then the whatever 750 billion dollar bailout may as well be 10 trilion. Why take an inch when you can take a mile. I've read that the U.S won't even be able to pay the interest on these loans in a few years time.
 

Doctor Pot

Well-Known Member
Just one question? Why won't the federal reserve actually make them pay it back? seems funny. Then the whatever 750 billion dollar bailout may as well be 10 trilion. Why take an inch when you can take a mile. I've read that the U.S won't even be able to pay the interest on these loans in a few years time.
That's three questions, but I'll try and answer them all. The Federal Reserve won't make the US government pay them back because the two are closely in sync, and they generally help each other. If the Federal Government collapsed, this would be very bad for the Federal Reserve.

Too much money in the system destabilizes the dollar and thus the economy. You can only do it when the economic conditions allow for it. Keep in mind, the job of the Federal Reserve is to stabilize the dollar. As for paying the interest, the Federal Reserve can always loan more, provided it doesn't destabilize the dollar in the process.

Weird, I know, and counterintutive. But oddly enough, it does work.
 

GrowTech

stays relevant.
While I'm not really for it, without it a lot of companies will close, people lose jobs, we end up in bigger pit.
 

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
How does one defend giving the Secretary of the Treasury authority over said funds without any oversight? Constitutional? I think not.
 

ramblerpimp209

Well-Known Member
Bullshit. Business cycles are normal.
You same liberal pukes that endorse evolution in one case want to discount the very "natural selection" that is currently TRYING to take place in the business world....
WTF are people thinking?? That our GOVERNMENT is able to control ANYTHING? Our Government itself is out of control!!!!!!!!
Wake up and smell the bullshit.
 

Budsworth

Well-Known Member
Let the big 3 auto dealers go out of business. They made thier bed, let em sleep in it.
When they go belly up there will will be another company on the horizon waiting to take there place, only to learn from thier mistakes and prosper and hire workers. The average american worker is sinking, the backbone of america and we bail out big corporations that have been mismanaged and the average worker is losing there house???? Something is serously fucked up here, I'm I wrong??????????????
 

Doctor Pot

Well-Known Member
How does one defend giving the Secretary of the Treasury authority over said funds without any oversight? Constitutional? I think not.
Paulson's initial proposal did not establish oversight (which isn't the same as saying there would be no oversight, it just wasn't mentioned), however this is not the proposal that congress approved. The actual bailout plan does have congressional oversight and special oversight offices built into it.

Bullshit. Business cycles are normal.
You same liberal pukes that endorse evolution in one case want to discount the very "natural selection" that is currently TRYING to take place in the business world....
Would you like an evolution analogy? Great! Ok, let's say you have a continent full of animals, all competing with each other. These animals are like companies. Some die out, some prosper, etc. Now, let's say an asteroid is headed right for that continent. Oh no! This asteroid is like the housing crisis. Now say you could "bail out" all these animals so most of them survived the asteroid. Could this prevent an evolutionary setback? Of course! The asteroid will kill most of the animals, no matter how fit they are, and even the fittest species can be wiped out by it. The best thing to do is to help them survive the asteroid so they can get back to business as usual after it hits. But after the asteroid is gone, you shouldn't do that anymore until there's another one.

WTF are people thinking?? That our GOVERNMENT is able to control ANYTHING? Our Government itself is out of control!!!!!!!!
Wake up and smell the bullshit.
The government can't control everything, but they do mint money. This has been a government responsibility pretty much forever. And people like you have been predicting apocalyptic scenarios since well... the fifties at least. And yet we seem to be doing alright.

Let the big 3 auto dealers go out of business. They made thier bed, let em sleep in it.
When they go belly up there will will be another company on the horizon waiting to take there place, only to learn from thier mistakes and prosper and hire workers. The average american worker is sinking, the backbone of america and we bail out big corporations that have been mismanaged and the average worker is losing there house???? Something is serously fucked up here, I'm I wrong??????????????
If we didn't do something about the auto industry, a lot more average americans would be losing their houses. The average american worker is losing out primarily because the rest of the world is catching up, and they don't ask for as much salary. It kind of sucks, but that's a whole other subject.
 

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
Paulson's initial proposal did not establish oversight (which isn't the same as saying there would be no oversight, it just wasn't mentioned), however this is not the proposal that congress approved. The actual bailout plan does have congressional oversight and special oversight offices built into it.
Fair enough. I read the 104 page bill drafted by the House. Would you mind citing the section in the final bill drafted by the Senate that states the congressional and/or judicial oversight?
 

ramblerpimp209

Well-Known Member
Dr.Pot;

Did the housing crisis cause itself? Certainly not. The housing crisis could not be as an "asteroid" as you portray.

The animals created the housing crisis themselves. We NEED the "evolutionary setback".

"The government can't control everything, but they do mint money. This has been a government responsibility pretty much forever. And people like you have been predicting apocalyptic scenarios since well... the fifties at least. And yet we seem to be doing alright."

Really? WTF are YOU smoking???
 

Doctor Pot

Well-Known Member
Dr.Pot;

Did the housing crisis cause itself? Certainly not. The housing crisis could not be as an "asteroid" as you portray.

The animals created the housing crisis themselves. We NEED the "evolutionary setback".
Ok, let's say some of the animals did cause the crisis, but you're not 100% sure which ones. That doesn't change things, because the crisis will kill everyone, not just the ones responsible for it. So you make a quick judgment call and save whichever species you think are most important. Then you give them a lashing and a good scolding and send them back outside when the crisis is over, making sure to keep a closer eye on them in the future so they don't cause another crisis.

"The government can't control everything, but they do mint money. This has been a government responsibility pretty much forever. And people like you have been predicting apocalyptic scenarios since well... the fifties at least. And yet we seem to be doing alright."

Really? WTF are YOU smoking???
You need some perspective. Relax, take a hit. bongsmilie

Now, sure, a lot of people are doing worse than they were a few years ago, this is true. But people aren't starving in the streets. You still have a computer, and enough free time to use the internet. We all do. Think about how much damage this crisis has done to you. For me, I lost $5000. That sucks. But I still have a roof over my head. I still have most of my money. And I still have my sweet grow room. Count your blessings, dude. :bigjoint:
 

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
Not bad, but I'd like to see the actual verbiage that calls for the creation of the panel AND what authority said apnel has over the allocation of funds being disbursed by the treasury. The House bill was 104 pages and the Senate bill was 400+. I haven't had time to read it yet. I may have to though. Here's what troubles me...

Yesterday, the Treasury Department announced a shift in the focus of the bailout funds from buying troubled mortgage securities to buying preferred shares in healthy banks. This reallocation brought further attention to the panel’s role as watchdog over the Treasury Department.
If Paulson knew that he was bound to congressional authority regarding how he/they were to disburse funds, and that there'd be severe consequences regarding his decision, then why did he announce that he was diverting funds from the original intent of bailing out troubled securities into ownership of healthy banks?

Methinks that this oversight committee is simply just an impotent agency with no real authority to reign in the Treasury...unless it's spelled out in the bill.
 

ramblerpimp209

Well-Known Member
Ok, let's say some of the animals did cause the crisis, but you're not 100% sure which ones. That doesn't change things, because the crisis will kill everyone, not just the ones responsible for it. So you make a quick judgment call and save whichever species you think are most important. Then you give them a lashing and a good scolding and send them back outside when the crisis is over, making sure to keep a closer eye on them in the future so they don't cause another crisis.


You need some perspective. Relax, take a hit. bongsmilie

Now, sure, a lot of people are doing worse than they were a few years ago, this is true. But people aren't starving in the streets. You still have a computer, and enough free time to use the internet. We all do. Think about how much damage this crisis has done to you. For me, I lost $5000. That sucks. But I still have a roof over my head. I still have most of my money. And I still have my sweet grow room. Count your blessings, dude. :bigjoint:
Three years ago I had a $300k note against my $425k home. Today, my home is worth $180-$200k and am negative equity of around $120k. That's how much damage this crisis has done to me. Sorry to hear about your $5k loss.

The crisis will certainly not kill everyone (You are more the doomsayer than I) But it is sure to hurt like hell for awhile.
 

Doctor Pot

Well-Known Member
Three years ago I had a $300k note against my $425k home. Today, my home is worth $180-$200k and am negative equity of around $120k. That's how much damage this crisis has done to me. Sorry to hear about your $5k loss.

The crisis will certainly not kill everyone (You are more the doomsayer than I) But it is sure to hurt like hell for awhile.
Yeah, I meant to say that I'm sure others are hurting more than me, but that it's not the end of the world. That sucks for you though. What does that mean, when you lose equity? You have to pay way more than your house is worth for it? I mean, you're not going to lose your house are you? You just get shafted on the price?

The animals represent companies, not people, man. Another couple hits and it'll all make perfect sense, I swear. :bigjoint:
 

Doctor Pot

Well-Known Member
Not bad, but I'd like to see the actual verbiage that calls for the creation of the panel AND what authority said apnel has over the allocation of funds being disbursed by the treasury. The House bill was 104 pages and the Senate bill was 400+. I haven't had time to read it yet. I may have to though. Here's what troubles me...



If Paulson knew that he was bound to congressional authority regarding how he/they were to disburse funds, and that there'd be severe consequences regarding his decision, then why did he announce that he was diverting funds from the original intent of bailing out troubled securities into ownership of healthy banks?

Methinks that this oversight committee is simply just an impotent agency with no real authority to reign in the Treasury...unless it's spelled out in the bill.
Naturally, I don't know the fine details of how the plan is being implemented. Maybe when they report to congress it'll be on C-SPAN?
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
This is only the begining of the hurting. Its not getting better anytime soon. Your equity loss on your house, sorry about that. But it is only a symptom of the problem. This is the Boom bust cycle that the central banks "Control" by lossening and constricting the money supply. Its supply and demand. There is no demand for 425 thousand dollar homes. The housing prices were artifisaly inflated. Next will be a dollar crisis. The dollar will start to lose value prices will go up and then yes people will be starving in the streets.

And yes we have been saying this same song and dance sence the 50's and before that. People like Jefferson and Adams and many of the Framers wanted to stay way from central banks. They knew well the dangers of Fiat Currency. I trust them a hell of a lot more then anything any modern economist will say.

Ecomomists who believe in central banking are the same ones who lauphed a Peter Schiff and Ron Paul when they predicted this economic collapes. Lauphed at them on TV God that would have pissed me off. Whos lauphin' Now boneheads. Andrew Jacksons headstone says "I killed The Bank" why do you think he would have that on his headstone?? Fiat Currency is a sure and almost inevetable way to destroy your economy.

The longest period of growth in our economy was between 1865 and 1913 the dollar rose in value almost every year prices slowly came down almost every year on a (Gold/Silver Standard). After that the Fed came into power and it almost immediatly reversed. And got worse and worse until breton woods and an end to the gold standard destroyed the value of the dollar. The Chickens are coming home to roost.

This Is when the real rich get really really rich you can bet the real rich are well positioned (In Gold probably) to reap the rewards of all this Fiat currency growth Doc's so proud of. The price of money will sink the housing prices will go down the stock market will go down ferther and these people will buy everything up for pennys on the dollar. Then they will own REAL ASSETS not worthless green paper.

Thats what this is really about does Gold have real value?? Yes! Does Little sheets of green paper have Real value?? No!
 

misshestermoffitt

New Member
So when they go and print this extra money, how does it end up in circulatiuon? Who is getting the free money handed to them?

Some things that don't make sense about the big 3 bailout, if they are in trouble because people aren't buying cars so their sales are down, how is keeping them in business to make cars that people can't buy going to help anything?

Another thing, the CEO's and management sucked of the teat named "profits" for how many years? Whatever happened to saving some cash back for a rainy day? Seems to me like it's raining like a motherfucker and they have no umbrella to open. Let's say they get the bailout, things roll along well for 5 to 10 years, they start sucking all the profits back into their personal bank accounts and suddenly we are right back here again.

Let the people in charge of these companies sell off their own possessions and re-invest into their business. That's what capitolism is about, you dine high on the hog during good years, you sell the damn hog during bad years. If you or I had a business that was in danger of failing, Washington and the big 3 wouldn't give a flying fuck.
 
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