I honestly believed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMH18WIuIQk

I supported, argued and clawed and scratched and fought. I thought this 2nd term would be progressive. Instead, we have been focused on Twinkies, Petraeus and he actually Mitt flopped on one of his stances I most respected, which was that he supported the people of Palestine.When will he be progressive? When will he reschedule? I regret defending him.

I want to see this plant as legal as tomato plants. I don't support regulation or even taxation. I don't support MMJ laws and I oppose the law WA has. I can put a fuckin seed into some fuckin dirt and I don't anyone telling me a damn thing about it.

progressive the new popular name for radical communist anti American scum!

thecoolman said:

progressive the new popular name for radical communist anti American scum!

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Dinosaurs have been extinct for millions of revolutions around the sun. Of course if you oppose progress, you probably don't believe they ever existed.

Shit changes, this is a good thing.

i dont know why youre surprised. he did the same thing last time, ran as a reformer, and ruled as a More Of The Samer.

Dr Kynes said:

i dont know why youre surprised. he did the same thing last time, ran as a reformer, and ruled as a More Of The Samer.

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You're right, I was wrong.

sorry bro. next time vote for the good old fashioned crony capitalist plutocrats. at least you wont be disappointed when they fuck you over.

Dr Kynes said:

sorry bro. next time vote for the good old fashioned crony capitalist plutocrats. at least you wont be disappointed when they fuck you over.

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Actually, I only voted Obama in 08. I'm extremely grateful that Rmoney lost though.

Before 08, it was Nader all the way and from now on I will stick to the ones with platforms I agree with.

I didn't say I voted for Obama in '12, I did argue pro-Obama leading up to the election though.

I voted Jill Stein, Libertarian Socialist.

abandonconflict said:

Actually, I only voted Obama in 08. I'm extremely grateful that Rmoney lost though.

Before 08, it was Nader all the way and from now on I will stick to the ones with platforms I agree with.

I didn't say I voted for Obama in '12, I did argue pro-Obama leading up to the election though.

I voted Jill Stein, Libertarian Socialist.

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"Libertarian Socialist"...

Cool story bro.

Harrekin said:

"Libertarian Socialist"...

Cool story bro.

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If you think the terms are mutually exclusive, you, like most of the people who describe them selves as either, don't know what either term means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

It doesn't advocate nationalizing resources.

The common perception that these two terms are mutually exclusive is the result of careful cultivation of fear and deception on a large scale. Business only wants government to have power insofar as they can control policy and government gives the perception that they control business. The people at the helm in this set up want you to believe that the only other option is government that is totally in control of your life. Power to the People, requires well informed masses. Basically, I don't buy into the government vs business dichotomy. I'm an anarchist.

abandonconflict said:

If you think the terms are mutually exclusive, you, like most of the people who describe them selves as either, don't know what either term means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

It doesn't advocate nationalizing resources.

The common perception that these two terms are mutually exclusive is the result of careful cultivation of fear and deception on a large scale. Business only wants government to have power insofar as they can control policy and government gives the perception that they control business. The people at the helm in this set up want you to believe that the only other option is government that is totally in control of your life. Power to the People, requires well informed masses. Basically, I don't buy into the government vs business dichotomy. I'm an anarchist.

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Sounds more like you're a fool.

Communism/Socialism fundamentally cannot work, attaching "Libertarian" to it is intellectually dishonest and I suspect it to be a sneeky propaganda tool.

Harrekin said:

Sounds more like you're a fool.

Communism/Socialism fundamentally cannot work, attaching "Libertarian" to it is intellectually dishonest and I suspect it to be a sneeky propaganda tool.

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Actually, the term Libertarian was attached to it long before it was attached to any free-market philosophy.

abandonconflict said:

Actually, the term Libertarian was attached to it long before it was attached to any free-market philosophy.

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So explain to me how the idea of personal liberties and controlled means of production work?

I read your Wikipedia link, sounds like someone half read Ayn Rand then was kidnapped and brain washed by Commies.

Harrekin said:

So explain to me how the idea of personal liberties and controlled means of production work?

I read your Wikipedia link, sounds like someone half read Ayn Rand then was kidnapped and brain washed by Commies.

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The means of production is owned by the people it serves and democratically administrated. This is why I said it requires a well informed masses.

Your other two choices, be ruled by government, be ruled by corporate interests. A consistent anarchist I am, therefore I oppose both.

Harrekin said:

So explain to me how the idea of personal liberties and controlled means of production work?

I read your Wikipedia link, sounds like someone half read Ayn Rand then was kidnapped and brain washed by Commies.

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The government built and owns the interstates and those enhanced our freedom.

I love counterexamples.

UncleBuck said:

The government built and owns the interstates and those enhanced our freedom.

I love counterexamples.

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That's not socialism, nor is social welfare in a democracy.

Actual "Socialism" is retarded, everyone CANNOT be equal, there's always someone on top.

Harrekin said:

That's not socialism, nor is social welfare in a democracy.

Actual "Socialism" is retarded, everyone CANNOT be equal, there's always someone on top.

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The interstate is an example of government controlled and shared costs that enhances our freedom. Ditto our social welfare programs.

UncleBuck said:

The interstate is an example of government controlled and shared costs that enhances our freedom. Ditto our social welfare programs.

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I also prefer government over corporate rule, as government is at least theoretically, supposed to strive in the best interests of the governed. Corporations only seek profit. However I think both of you are arguing within the confines of the dichotomy I described.

abandonconflict said:

he actually Mitt flopped on one of his stances I most respected, which was that he supported the people of Palestine.When will he be progressive?

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He managed to negotiate a cease fire and got Egypt involved which gives Israel an out. They always get a little crazy around the eye during election season. This was poised on the edge of all out war. Israel was gearing for an invasion. Obama stopped this. i wonder how Mittens Mckittens would have handled it? Now that Egypt is involved it makes them partially responsible for Gaza's welfare. This is good for the Palestinians. Obama stopped a war that was killing Palestinians and you're claiming he turned his back on them. Interesting perspective.

Harrekin said:

That's not socialism, nor is social welfare in a democracy.

Actual "Socialism" is retarded, everyone CANNOT be equal, there's always someone on top.

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Libertarian socialism is not state socialism. If everyone cannot be equal, then there will always be kings. The more a society is stratified, the fewer peers one has. What I am arguing is that indeed mankind can get it's shit together, end the rat race and usher in a great paradigm shift from a consciousness of competition to one of cooperation. You apparently have not so much hope. There are only so many ultimate outcomes in the great ascent of man. We have the power now, as a species, to foster a better reality. We do this slowly by simply shifting the direction of progress. Like the buds in a scrog or a vine in a trellis, design can affect growth.

An argument directly counter to this, is that reality is objective. I find it amazing that particle theory is mounting evidence that reality is not objective but that perception and consciousness have a direct effect upon reality. Taken slightly out of that context, but not so far away as to lose sense of it, we really need only change our minds to change our world. We can all be equal my friend, we have only the monumental task of realizing that fact.

I also find it funny, that the arguments for objective reality and for the abandonment of collectivism are both to be found in the works of Ayn Rand.