Do Clones Lose Their Vigor Over Time?

roorsmoker

roorsmoker

Well-Known Member
im running masterkush, purple indica, l.a. confidential, and a skunk indica hybrid all in 5 gallon dwc buckets. my 3rd gro i tried taking clones of clones that had already been taken from the mother. i did this in two separate generations to the masterkush. i let the third gro flower at a buddy's house, who is a semi nube.

this is probably my 1st mistake, letting the nube try to grow. however, in this latest batch(the one i let my buddy watch), each five gallon dwc bucket only yielded one ounce (compared to 4 ounces my first harvest under the same light and 9 wks). the calyxes started to finger out like foxtails, which i have never seen happen on a 90% masterkush indica strain. and worst of all, the buds looked like they had been fingerfucked, with only HALF as much resin as before. the nug still looked fire, but HALF as potent.

has anyone heard of a strain dying? i would think that each clone is a clone, and that each has the same genetic makeup, regardless. i think buddy was just a noob, and let it get stressed/not enough light/didnt rotate them.

any input would be great!!! thanks!

PS. i put the same genetic masterkush outside in a five gallon smartpot and 4 weeks into flower the thing looks like it will yield twice as much as the stuff at my friends house(prob 5 times that amnt when finished).
hopefully it was just the grower!
 
roorsmoker

roorsmoker

Well-Known Member
you're telling me out of 20 people, no one has a clue if clones lose vigor over three successions of cloning? the mother was flowered, reveged like 2 years ago, and it made AMAZING clones and, its clones,also made amazing clones, but im not sure about the clones that came from those clones. anyone know if they could lose almost half potency from just 3 generations ?
 
diet103

diet103

Well-Known Member
I would also like to know because I got 6 clones from a friend and plan to take clones from them before they flower.
 
OniusOniusOnius

OniusOniusOnius

Member
Genetic decline varies greatly based on strain. The typical rule of thumb is that true-bredding and well stabilized seed stock has much more concrete genetics, while f3's and very photo-period sensetive plants (i.e. haze) will mutate their genetics in as little as one night of stress. Skunk #1 won't decline and if it does it appears fixable, using supplements containing amino acids. Amino acids are the building blocks of protien. When a sensitive plant becomes stressed sometimes the DNA the plant had which told it to produce a particular protien is lost. By introducing the amino acids the plants can repair that part of it's DNA and as a result beging producing the correct protiens.
However, some sensetive strains (usually multi-hybrids without stabilization) will never regain their vigor or potency. I had a buddy who had the most amazing Super Silver Haze which recieved an erratic light cycle one week while he was away. No matter what we did to those clones they were never as potent, yielded as much, or even came close to smelling as good. Life goes on.
One should note that even among strains with very solid genetics, growing condition can very easily half both potency and yield. No doubt. Also, even VERY sensetive variaties can be cloned forever without any loss in genetics, if conditions are kept idea. It only takes one event to ruin it all though. One night too cold, one day the lights don't come on, one over-fert... done for good. Be careful. Photo-Period (day/night length) tends to be the number one cause of gentetic decline, followed by inadequate veg time after reverting from flower, cold, and then nutrient issues. You should try Roots Organic's Amino Aide 5-0-0 untill week 5 and see if it helps bring your baby back.
 
morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
The clone is simply an extension of the original plant.
The genes which express the traits remain consistent. So if you look at traits which can be effected by external influences, it's much more probable that it was those external influences which had a hand in it, rather than a spontaneous change of genes within the cutting.

So something in the environment did it.
 
diet103

diet103

Well-Known Member
OniusOniusOnius said:
Genetic decline varies greatly based on strain. The typical rule of thumb is that true-bredding and well stabilized seed stock has much more concrete genetics, while f3's and very photo-period sensetive plants (i.e. haze) will mutate their genetics in as little as one night of stress. Skunk #1 won't decline and if it does it appears fixable, using supplements containing amino acids. Amino acids are the building blocks of protien. When a sensitive plant becomes stressed sometimes the DNA the plant had which told it to produce a particular protien is lost. By introducing the amino acids the plants can repair that part of it's DNA and as a result beging producing the correct protiens.
However, some sensetive strains (usually multi-hybrids without stabilization) will never regain their vigor or potency. I had a buddy who had the most amazing Super Silver Haze which recieved an erratic light cycle one week while he was away. No matter what we did to those clones they were never as potent, yielded as much, or even came close to smelling as good. Life goes on.
One should note that even among strains with very solid genetics, growing condition can very easily half both potency and yield. No doubt. Also, even VERY sensetive variaties can be cloned forever without any loss in genetics, if conditions are kept idea. It only takes one event to ruin it all though. One night too cold, one day the lights don't come on, one over-fert... done for good. Be careful. Photo-Period (day/night length) tends to be the number one cause of gentetic decline, followed by inadequate veg time after reverting from flower, cold, and then nutrient issues. You should try Roots Organic's Amino Aide 5-0-0 untill week 5 and see if it helps bring your baby back.
Click to expand...
So what youre saying is if the plants aren't stressed it will be fine to take clones of clones?
 
morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
Holy. That's a new one for me.
You can induce mutation that easily in these plants? Not through cross-breeding but from short term stress?

Damn!

edit: Okay, I re-read that a couple of more times, and it sounds like it's not a matter of the genes themselves changing, but the stresses are effecting the expression of specific genes. So the genetics, the overall DNA roadmap, remain the same but the external influence has affected how/which genes express the traits.

Correct?
 
roorsmoker

roorsmoker

Well-Known Member
i scrapped that generation of flowering clones. they finished shitty, so i never revegged them. i had the clones from ahead of time that were never flowered that came from the mother (which was flowered once). but every clone off that mother was amazing. i have heavily been monitoring their photoperiod since over a year ago when i adopted the first clone. my outdoor MK came from a clone of the mother and is doing fine outside. i think the 3 that i put at that kids house got stressed by his conditions. one even died at 5 weeks in. i never left my clones out of light or let them get less than 18hrs a day of light. i never overferted and heat never went above 80 degrees or lower than 60. i think the kid i left them with fucked the photoperiod up or soemthing and ruined the genes of THOSE clones forever. he could have easily overferted, let it get too hot, or his girlfriend may have even went into the bathroom while dark. i only got to check on them once every other week :(.

ill know in exactly 3 weeks, whenever my outdoor masterkush is done whether the genes of those veg clones are fucked, or if it's just the 3 that went to his house.
 
mared juwan

mared juwan

Well-Known Member
It was the enivronment. I have a strain that I have cloned the clone of the clone of the clone..... for 32 times and counting. I have other strains that I am approaching 20 generations with. Never had any problems. I have a small op and space is at a premium. I have found that if done correctly you can just clone clones without keeping mothers. IMO mother plants are best is you need like 50 cuttings at a time or are trying to do breeding. In most cases of small personal use grows I think cloning clones is a better solution. All the plants that are growing at any given time will be flowered and produce bud for you. No space needed for the mothers.
 
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