Deficiency help please +REP to all constructive responses

Hi guys and gals. I have a problem I'm hoping the RIU community can help me confirm. First, the stats....

Soil: Miracle Grow Organic Choice lightly amended with worm castings and Perlite
Water: Distilled from store, 1 gal size
Temp: 84
Lights 120W HTG LED 24/0
PH: slightly acidic (Milwaukee PH meter coming tomorrow)

cause for concern is two fold. The leaves were originally starting to fold up along the centers, like canoes. I lightly watered in Epsom Salts, about 1/2 tsp. Within an hour, the leaves opened up, but then began to curl down on some of the tips while the serrated edges curled up. A few of the tips began to twist as well.

If you look closely at the pics, you can see the twisted tips on the lower growth from yesterday. The color in the leaves is lightening up too. The plant was topped 3 days ago, the top is doing well in my cloning propagator.

I suspect magnesium/calcium deficiency, as these plants have not been fed. The soil has little nutrients in it, as it is organic choice and the plants have been in it nearly 3 weeks. The node spacing is tight as hell which I also suspect is due to a calcium shortage.

Solution?: I have mixed 1 qrt of water with 1/4 tsp epsom salts, 7 drops of Shultz's Plant Food 10-15-10, 1 cap of H2O2 as a foliar spray in case PH is locked up. I doubt it, as I flushed the hell out of the plant yesterday. Notice all the Perlite settling at the top because of the extensive flush? It was colored dark before the flush.

I'll verify PH after my new PH meter is here. In the meantime, should I continue with my foliar spray? Should I add anything? Is this a mag/cal def?

I have Cal-Mag on the way for any future occurrences.

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kind of sounds like you already know what it is, i would have said mg or ph lockout.... i looked at some of my old ph lockout pics and they look almost identical

OK, Then I'll stick with Foliar feeding until my Cal-Mag gets here. My new PH meter should be here tomorrow. PH lockout seems unrealistic as I use distilled water and a stable soil, but it very well could be.

well i take it those plants are only 3 weeks old. your not supposed to give it any nutes before a month old as it is still a seedling. hydrogen peroxide isnt a good idea either

Sorry, it's not a seedling, the plant had already had 5 true nodes and was working on number 6 when I topped it. It obviously has a deficiency. If I can't give it nutes at this stage when it show deficiencies, what do I give it?

And please explain why H2O with an extra O is bad for the plant when everywhere else says it is good for the roots?

I'm just trying to work out and confirm my deficiency, not get into what constitutes a proper grow. You offered zero advice, just criticism, and I don't need it but thanks anyways.

I think H2O2 is more beneficial in hydro and it kills your micro heard in the soil. I'm thinking they are too young to show deficiencies so my money is on the PH being the issue. The nutes can change your PH and so does H2O2. But other than that they look great.

This might help you out

Peace

[FONT=&quot]Solving Marijuana Plan Leaf Curl/Cupping Problems[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Plenty of first time and experienced marijuana growers will suffer at some point in their cannabis growing career marijuana plants that begin to show leaf damage.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Often they write emails or post on forums.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Help, my leaves are cupping and the leaf edges are turning brown!”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]or[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“My plant's leaf tips are curling down and turning black ....what's wrong?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Unless another marijuana grower inspects the damage a true assessment might not be possible. It's hard to tell "exactly" what the culprit is. Unfortunately the “solution” the marijuana grower chooses many times is not the right one.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A misdiagnosis only serves to make matters worse by promoting further decline.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The ultimate and correct solution is in the hands of the marijuana grower.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here are some common problems when marijuana leaves are curling.[/FONT]

1. [FONT=&quot]Too much marijuana fertilizer[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
   The most common cause of marijuana leaf cupping aka leaf margin rolling, leaf margin burn, and leaf tip curl/burn is overzealous use of marijuana plant food. In relationship to factors such as marijuana plant vigor and rate of growth. Leaf burn is often the very first sign of too much marijuana fertilizer.
   A hard, crispy feel to the marijuana leaf frequently occurs as well, as opposed to a soft and cool feel of a happy pot leaf. Back off on the amount and/or frequency of using marijuana fertilizer. Too much marijuana fertilizer can also burn the roots, especially the sensitive root tips, which then creates another set of problems. Note - as soil dries, the concentration of the remaining salts rises further exacerbating the problem. [/FONT]
2. [FONT=&quot]High Heat[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
   The marijuana plant is losing water via it’s leaves faster than what can be replaced by the root system. The marijuana leaf responds by leaf margin cupping or rolling up or down (most times up) in order to conserve moisture. A good example is reflected by the appearance of broad-bladed turf grass on a hot summer day, high noon, with low soil moisture levels - the leaf blade will roll upward/inward with the grass taking on a dull, greyish-green appearance. Upon sunrise when moisture levels have returned to normal, the leaf blade will be flat. Lower the heat in the marijuana grow-op and concentrate on developing a large robust root system. An efficient and effective root system will go a long way to prevent heat induced pot leaf dessication or marijuana leaf margin curling. One short episode of high heat is enough to permanently disable or destroy leaf tissue and cause a general decline in the leaves affected, which often occurs to leaves found at the top of the cannabis plant. The damaged pot leaf (usually) does not fully recover, no matter what you do. Bummer in the summer. One can only look to new growth for indications that the problem has been corrected.[/FONT]
3. [FONT=&quot]Too much light[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
   Yes, it’s true, you can give your marijuana plant too much light. Cannabis does not receive full sun from sunrise to sunset in its natural state. It is shaded or given reduced light levels because of adjacent plant material, cloudy conditions, rain, dust, twilight periods in the morning and late afternoon, and light intensity changes caused by a change in the seasons. Too much light mainly serves to bleach out and destroy chlorophyll as opposed to causing marijuana leaf cupping, but it often goes hand-in-hand with high heat for indoor marijuana growers. Turn down the time when the lights on in your marijuana grow room. If you're using a 24 hr cycle, turn it down to 20 hrs. Those on 18 - 6 marijuana growth cycle can turn their lights down two or three hours. Too much light can have many adverse effects on marijuana plants. Concentrate on developing/maintaining an efficient and robust root system.[/FONT]
4. [FONT=&quot]Over Watering[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
   For marijuana growers using soil, this practice only serves to weaken the root system by depriving the roots of proper gas exchange. The marijuana plants roots are not getting enough oxygen which creates an anerobic condition inducing root rot and root decline with the end result showing up as leaf stress, stunted growth, and in severe cases, death. Over watering creates a perfect environment for damp-off disease, at, or below the soil line. Many times marijuana growers believe their cannabis plant is not getting enough marijuana fertilizers (which it can't under such adverse conditions), so they add more marijuana fertilizers. Making the problem worst. Not better. Often problem 1 and 4 go together. Too much marijuana fertilizer combined with too much water. Creating plenty of marijuana plant problems.[/FONT]
5. [FONT=&quot]Not Enough Water[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
   Not only is the marijuana plant now stressed due to a low supply of adequate moisture, but carbohydrate production has been greatly compromised (screwed up). Step up the watering frequency, and if need be, organic marijuana growers may need to water from the bottom up until moisture levels reach a norm throughout the medium. One of the best methods in determining whether a marijuana plant requires watering is lifting the pots. The pots should be light to lift before a water session. After watering the marijuana plants lift the pots to get an understanding how heavy they've become fully watered. If the pot feels light to the lift - it’s time to water. Don’t wait until the soil pulls away from the side of the pot before watering. And of course, leach, once in a while to get rid of excess salts. These are the five most common problems marijuana growers encounter when growing cannabis. Correcting the problems early will save the marijuana plants, but may reduce overall yield. With practice and experience these problems are easily overcome which will then enable the marijuana grower to produce fantastic marijuana plants. With heavy yields.[/FONT]

I highly doubt you have a cal/mag deficiency. Calcium and magnesium deficiencies are usually seen in the flowering stage. That is when the plant uses those nutrients the most. If they are three weeks old they are probably ready for their first dose of nutrients. You should feed with something higher in nitrogen. For example fox farms veg formula is 6-4-4. Make sure whatever you use you feed at half the recommended dose to start. Then work up to full dose over a month or so. PEACE

I didn't think about beneficial microbes in the soil....

Does anyone else use H2O2 in a soil grow?

They might be to young to show a deficiency, however they are and that's what I'm dealing with. PH lock out looks exactly like a deficiency so how can it look like one and not the other?

Anyone else have any idea? Is the original diagnoses correct? They have never been fed until today, so the soil PH has been stable with only distilled water being given.

Mountainfarmer said:

I highly doubt you have a cal/mag deficiency. Calcium and magnesium deficiencies are usually seen in the flowering stage. That is when the plant uses those nutrients the most. If they are three weeks old they are probably ready for their first dose of nutrients. You should feed with something higher in nitrogen. For example fox farms veg formula is 6-4-4. Make sure whatever you use you feed at half the recommended dose to start. Then work up to full dose over a month or so. PEACE

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+REP A constructive answer, thanks

thats looking like a ph problem man

"PH lock out looks exactly like a deficiency so how can it look like one and not the other?"

Their age.......The reason I think it's PH is because they are too young to have a deficiency.......the only other logical reason they would be showing this is because of a PH lockout. If they were any older I would say a deficiency is a possibility and you would have to test your PH to rule PH issues out, but yeah since they are too young by cancellation you probably have a PH lockout. I wouldnt add too much nutes until you get the PH adjusted because they wont be able to absorb them anyway.

I start feeding after one week of veg. 1/8 strength.

Wait 4 weeks to start feeding!?! Who would need veg nutes then. Beside outdoor guys.

I think your on the right track. Ph looks to be likely the culprit.

I've got my bet on Ph imbalance. Your haveing multi problems: boron, mg, N ect. signs. No nute major or micro are getting to the plant well. If you put nutes or anything else in you water, it will change the PH. Thats more than likey the way it got thrown off. Get your meter, PH the soil, and PH every watering (nute, neem, espsom satl, whatever). If the soils is balanced, then balance everything that goes in the soil. Foliar feed until the ph problem is fixed. Good luck my friend.

jamNburn said:

Wait 4 weeks to start feeding!?! Who would need veg nutes then.

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You really wouldn't if you only veg for 3 weeks in soil and then flower. Anything after 3 weeks I would add nutes....just my $0.02
A good soil will feed your plants what they need for 3 weeks....without added nutes. It also depends on how big your plant is at that age. A larger plant will have a larger root mass and therefore absorb more nutrients, so some nutes may be required at an earlier age. But his plant is still small so definitely PH issue.

Thanks guys... I hope the meter gets here tomorrow.


I'm going with the light cycle change too, from 24/0 to 20/4

While PH lockout is likely, plants have only been feed by foliar, not before, in case it was PH... I think they might just need their first food. They are actually closer to 4 weeks old. They spent an extra week under Flouros because of an incident noted in my log. I'm ready to bust out some Grow Big if it's just nutes. This organic soil says it feeds for 3 months. I'll bet my PH is unstable and is too low.....

I'll update tomorrow with new pics too.

thanks for the feedback, I'll go back and rep those that offered help.

Success:

The PH of the water is 7.3 and the soil is 6.5

Last night I used reasoning and knowing my plants and I mixed up some Grow Big and Big Blooms from FF and fed the plant via the soil/watering. Today it looked perked up and the coloring was coming back to it. Attached are two photos from today.

I have also top dressed lightly with pelleted lime.



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Uh. I'm pretty Sure u dnt need the lime. Just keep an eye on it. It's better to be low vs high. ie 5-7 is better than 7.5

Here is what I use to diagnose toxicity and deficiencies.

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jamNburn said:

Uh. I'm pretty Sure u dnt need the lime. Just keep an eye on it. It's better to be low vs high. ie 5-7 is better than 7.5

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It was 5.5 before lime, kinda acidic. Also lime is great source of magnesium/calcium, which plant was suspected to be short of.