Jonesfamily7715
Well-Known Member
Anyone here try flowering with these newer colors from cree. I'll post pics of the different spectral distribution charts, any thoughts
Photophyll
Photophyll
Cree photophyll and pro 9 colors
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Jonesfamily7715
Well-Known Member
Pro 9 is supposed to get you really high CRI with a decent efficiency kinda interesting really I think bridgelux something like this goin on as well I think.
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grotbags
Well-Known Member
photophyll looks like crees spin on samsungs evo "mints", great if your only chasing efficiency not so great if you value spectrum.
grotbags
Well-Known Member
the 3000k "Z" cri pro 9's look like a good base for a flower spectrum.
Frankindank
Member
One would almost say the opposite. It's spectral as much as efficacy based compared to plain mint. The whole point is to be able to target all blue, green, and red ratios more directly/independently as well as in the most efficient ways to do them. The white photophylls allows change to B:G ratio without affecting red content. With more efficient red diodes like XPG3 photo reds plus the new horizon version's with the batwing optics allows great mixing of mid power whites and high power reds at lower hanging heights.
Pro9 is available across the board from CREE. Mid power too, G and J class no issue. If you bought enough(10M+) of the new 3030's, they would add pro9 to them I'm sure. But of the DIY'er or a guy looking at localk CM's for boards, G class 2835 pro9 will be the top dog.
J Series® 2835 LEDs - Cree LED
J Series 2835 LEDs are optimized to deliver the best value with high efficacy to low-density, indoor lighting applications. Cree LED has a broad range of color, voltage and performance options available in the standard 2835 package, including the industry’s highest efficacy 2835 LED: 2835B 3V G...
www.cree-led.com
Pro9= KSF phosphor. It's GE/Nichia licensed tech. Almost all companies offering it in some form.
Nichia, CREE, Samsung, Bridgelux, Citizen....all have forms of KSF in their lineups. It's not meant for hort, but its not bad. Color shift and max operating temps are not as good with KSF compared to standard CRI phosphor mixes, so horticulture isn't a great application for them. But the spectrums are good.
Nice ~640nm peak in the KSF and good LPW for the additional red input. Haven't seen a lumen to umol conversion factor for the KSF spectrums, but should be + for the µmol/w.
grotbags
Well-Known Member
i dont see how its the opposite?, they are more or less the same spectrum. apart from cree offering 3 different spectrums with differing amounts of blue. its clear this is a push for efficiency (the same as the mints) as they like you say strip out as much of the red from the whites as possible and add it back in via much more efficient 660 monos.
i agree though that cree's approach is better with the different blue levels, its just basic B:G:R ratios are a poor way of describing, designing or categorising spectrums.
i didnt see the pro 9's in the 2835... interesting... i doubt colour shift or max operating temps would be an issue as long as they arent driven hard.Pro9 is available across the board from CREE. Mid power too, G and J class no issue. If you bought enough(10M+) of the new 3030's, they would add pro9 to them I'm sure. But of the DIY'er or a guy looking at localk CM's for boards, G class 2835 pro9 will be the top dog.
J Series® 2835 LEDs - Cree LED
J Series 2835 LEDs are optimized to deliver the best value with high efficacy to low-density, indoor lighting applications. Cree LED has a broad range of color, voltage and performance options available in the standard 2835 package, including the industry’s highest efficacy 2835 LED: 2835B 3V G...
Pro9= KSF phosphor. It's GE/Nichia licensed tech. Almost all companies offering it in some form.
Nichia, CREE, Samsung, Bridgelux, Citizen....all have forms of KSF in their lineups. It's not meant for hort, but its not bad. Color shift and max operating temps are not as good with KSF compared to standard CRI phosphor mixes, so horticulture isn't a great application for them. But the spectrums are good.
Nice ~640nm peak in the KSF and good LPW for the additional red input. Haven't seen a lumen to umol conversion factor for the KSF spectrums, but should be + for the µmol/w.
Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
From the cree blurb about these: i understood that theyre targeting stable red % content in order to make it easier to calculate how much more red to add thru monos.
On that spikey 90cri spectrum: ive only ever seen it tested once at led-tech (bridgelux F90) and it looks like the diodes are slightly less efficient than standard blux 90cris (as per tests here on riu, though the question is are the tests like for like?). Their spectrum looks juicy but if you overlay the standard 90cri spectrum its not necessarily as attractive.
On that spikey 90cri spectrum: ive only ever seen it tested once at led-tech (bridgelux F90) and it looks like the diodes are slightly less efficient than standard blux 90cris (as per tests here on riu, though the question is are the tests like for like?). Their spectrum looks juicy but if you overlay the standard 90cri spectrum its not necessarily as attractive.
grotbags
Well-Known Member
r
are you saying the blux f90's are using the same ksf phosphor that the pro 9's are using?. can you remember what the numbers were for eficiency?.
Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
Im not sure but id imagine the numbers being similar over brands
For efficiency numbers you can use TEKNIKs here onsite (i think they should come up in bridgelux eb gen3 in the search option) and the ones on led-techs web for f90. Iirc correct standard ebs 90cri 2700k came out as 2.66 and a little lower for F90; but i dont know much about testing equipment and conditions for led-techs testing.
Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
Bridgelux eb strips Gen 3
The hlg 60h 700a has a voltage range of 50-100V. The 1ft strips are ~20V so 4 or 5 strips BXEB-L0280Z-xxx1000-C-C3.... are these the strips? https://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/bridgelux/BXEB-L0340U-30E0750-C-C3/976-BXEB-L0340U-30E0750-C-C3-ND/10279849 Those are the ones I...
www.rollitup.org
Theyre quite comparable since both designs are based on 7 led string. Dont know about led tdch but teknik always did tests at continuous operation
Frankindank
Member
KSF has been around a long time, Cree first used it in 2017 in COBs called "etone" for those who have been around long enough. But GE/nichia put a stop to that legally.
Now days it's coming back as the tech and legalities behind it, have been stabilized for the most part. GE/Nichia's licensing system is in place and ready to collect.
The gist of KSF is...get 80CRI efficacy(lpw) out of a 90cri part. So to the comments above, efficiency is actually up over standard 90cri by quite a bit. Not down.
As for how its done, there are 3 companies making KSF phosphor, but only 1 that has true patent to do it right.
Intematix - Lowest grade, stabilty, and major legal issues. B-lux getting sued because of using this, so don't expect f90 to last as it is for much longer.
Mitsubishi - Samsung uses. Mid grade and major color instability(not just shift...degradation of the phosphor). Also getting legal pressure from GE. Samsung already took S90 off the market this year. Will return late this, or early next year after licensing GEs blend.
GE/Nichia- The real deal, hold patent and licensing all others are trying to work around. Best and most stable KSF phosphor by far. What CREE, nichia, and a few others use. Eventually all will use due to quality and legal status. Worth it to pay the piper here.
Now days it's coming back as the tech and legalities behind it, have been stabilized for the most part. GE/Nichia's licensing system is in place and ready to collect.
The gist of KSF is...get 80CRI efficacy(lpw) out of a 90cri part. So to the comments above, efficiency is actually up over standard 90cri by quite a bit. Not down.
As for how its done, there are 3 companies making KSF phosphor, but only 1 that has true patent to do it right.
Intematix - Lowest grade, stabilty, and major legal issues. B-lux getting sued because of using this, so don't expect f90 to last as it is for much longer.
Mitsubishi - Samsung uses. Mid grade and major color instability(not just shift...degradation of the phosphor). Also getting legal pressure from GE. Samsung already took S90 off the market this year. Will return late this, or early next year after licensing GEs blend.
GE/Nichia- The real deal, hold patent and licensing all others are trying to work around. Best and most stable KSF phosphor by far. What CREE, nichia, and a few others use. Eventually all will use due to quality and legal status. Worth it to pay the piper here.
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Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
Yes, in lum/w but not in photons per watt according to testing cited.
Frankindank
Member
Only thing from Teknik is standard 90cri EB strip. Where are his KSF test? I can just ask him myself, but youre saying its there in that link?
Led-Tech only having f90 or thrive of their own board to compare.
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Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
No ksf from teknik. Just looking for the best numbers we can get. Previously there were regular blux 2700k 90cri available thru led-tech which also scored slightly better than f90 in photon/w.
Frankindank
Member
Here is a consistent look at the phosphor techs over the same LED chip in the pic/attachment
Cree G-class 2835 in 80cri, 90cri, and pro9 in 4000K CCT. The table is specifically in radiometric output. As you can see the pro9 is putting out more energy across the board. Then 80cri, followed by standard 90cri putting out the least.
Now I have requested a conversion factor from my cree guy to keep it apples to apples as much as possible, but for now the only KSF conversion I can get is just now from LED-Tech test and working it backwards. But is probably close enough for us to see here what is going on. But will update here when cree responds.
Conversion factors( ppf/flux)
4K80= 0.014034 (from cree PCT)
4K90= 0.015403 (from cree PCT)
4Kf90= 0.013551243835875 (LED-tech: 68.92µmols/5085.88lm)
So if we use 70ma(.188w) flux for instance and calculate µmol/w( flux*conversion.../wattage )
4K80(40.5lm flux@70ma)= 40.5*0.014034)/.188 = 3.02µmols/w
4K90(34.9lm flux@70ma)= 34.9*0.015403/.188 = 2.86µmols/w
4Kf90(38.6lm flux@70ma)= 38.6*0.013551243835875 /.188 = 2.78µmols/w
Very interesting! Would have expected the 640nm potassium peak to bring more weight photonically. Will report back what conversion Cree gives me, but I expect it to be within margin of error.
Cree G-class 2835 in 80cri, 90cri, and pro9 in 4000K CCT. The table is specifically in radiometric output. As you can see the pro9 is putting out more energy across the board. Then 80cri, followed by standard 90cri putting out the least.
Now I have requested a conversion factor from my cree guy to keep it apples to apples as much as possible, but for now the only KSF conversion I can get is just now from LED-Tech test and working it backwards. But is probably close enough for us to see here what is going on. But will update here when cree responds.
Conversion factors( ppf/flux)
4K80= 0.014034 (from cree PCT)
4K90= 0.015403 (from cree PCT)
4Kf90= 0.013551243835875 (LED-tech: 68.92µmols/5085.88lm)
So if we use 70ma(.188w) flux for instance and calculate µmol/w( flux*conversion.../wattage )
4K80(40.5lm flux@70ma)= 40.5*0.014034)/.188 = 3.02µmols/w
4K90(34.9lm flux@70ma)= 34.9*0.015403/.188 = 2.86µmols/w
4Kf90(38.6lm flux@70ma)= 38.6*0.013551243835875 /.188 = 2.78µmols/w
Very interesting! Would have expected the 640nm potassium peak to bring more weight photonically. Will report back what conversion Cree gives me, but I expect it to be within margin of error.
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grotbags
Well-Known Member
exellent info... thanks for that.
Jonesfamily7715
Well-Known Member
Thankyou guys for all the info Ive been a little hesitant to buy pro 9 stuff because of the funky looking spectrum but after reading this it makes more sense.
grotbags
Well-Known Member
how are you thinking of using the pro 9's? as a standalone or mixing it with another white midpower and/or monos?.
grotbags
Well-Known Member
i had a quick play with led-tech system configurator , i used the 3000k blux f90 as a stand in for the pro 9's and added mint evo's at a ratio of approx 2:1 (2 f90 to 1 evo mint), then added some monos to fill it out.
using the 3000k pro 9's should lift the efficiency a bit and fatten out the non mono covered area of the red spectrum (630 -730nm).
using the 3000k pro 9's should lift the efficiency a bit and fatten out the non mono covered area of the red spectrum (630 -730nm).