Anyone used Amblyseius fallacis?

VILEPLUME

VILEPLUME

Well-Known Member
Anyone here used the predatory mite Amblyseius fallacis? I hate spraying every week to control Spider Mites. Wondering if this mite is a good option for a 60 plant indoor medical grow?
 
Never used fallacious but used californicus, andersoni, persimilis, hypoapsis ...


Use the predetory mite that targets your pest and that can live in your temperate climate

And their are a number of bio insecticides that are both OMRI certified and safe for cannabis
 
rustyshaclkferd said:
Never used fallacious but used californicus, andersoni, persimilis, hypoapsis ...


Use the predetory mite that targets your pest and that can live in your temperate climate

And their are a number of bio insecticides that are both OMRI certified and safe for cannabis
Click to expand...

Thanks. What bio insecticides would you recommend for spider mites?
 
VILEPLUME said:
Thanks. What bio insecticides would you recommend for spider mites?
Click to expand...
Always rotate modes of action, the way your products kill target your pest.

Start with something like grandevo it is a bacteria that they ingest and will have very high efficacy per percentage ofcoverage . Coverages of underside of leaves where mites feed is important.

The move toward another bio insecticide within 3-5 days of grandevo application, like m pede which acts as a desiccannt and is omri rated.

After that within 3-5 days id use PFR 90 which is type of fungus that will infect and sporialate mites to infect more.

If you still have living mites of any stageof life do your self a favor and use pyganic 5.0 its organic and very safe but is 100% a neurotoxin so use at label rates as to be safe and create resistance.


This cycle should kill everything, all stages ofnl life and should take you 3 weeks.

At this point just use preventive neem sprays, i recommend rango in conjuncruon with venerate for month. Rotating sprays every 7 days. This should totally clean up any veg room. And any first 3 weeks of bloom.


If you are in bloom. SMITE every day for 3 weeks or intill you can no longer find mites and your weeks 1-3 spray program will be clean by the time you clean up the rest....
 
rustyshaclkferd said:
Always rotate modes of action, the way your products kill target your pest.

Start with something like grandevo it is a bacteria that they ingest and will have very high efficacy per percentage ofcoverage . Coverages of underside of leaves where mites feed is important.

The move toward another bio insecticide within 3-5 days of grandevo application, like m pede which acts as a desiccannt and is omri rated.

After that within 3-5 days id use PFR 90 which is type of fungus that will infect and sporialate mites to infect more.

If you still have living mites of any stageof life do your self a favor and use pyganic 5.0 its organic and very safe but is 100% a neurotoxin so use at label rates as to be safe and create resistance.


This cycle should kill everything, all stages ofnl life and should take you 3 weeks.

At this point just use preventive neem sprays, i recommend rango in conjuncruon with venerate for month. Rotating sprays every 7 days. This should totally clean up any veg room. And any first 3 weeks of bloom.


If you are in bloom. SMITE every day for 3 weeks or intill you can no longer find mites and your weeks 1-3 spray program will be clean by the time you clean up the rest....
Click to expand...

Thanks. I have 70% rubbing alcohol and peppermint oil. Was thinking of mixing it with water and spraying the plants. What’s your thoughts?
 
VILEPLUME said:
Thanks. I have 70% rubbing alcohol and peppermint oil. Was thinking of mixing it with water and spraying the plants. What’s your thoughts?
Click to expand...
The 2 together would probably burn your leaves, but botanicals are a good option. Capsicum based botanicals will kill and deter, peppermint and neem work well together

Botanicals have an added affect of coating your leaves and basically drowning anything that cant escape...secondary MOA very nice !

I know it means less and less as years go by to tried and true organic growers but all the products i listed are OMRI rated and fairly safe
 
Capt Jacks dead bug.

organic systemic......keep them dosed every 6 days for 3 weeks.


You need a serious grow area cleaning also. Spray all area's with a Pyrethrin solution. Cover everything!

Flea bombs are cheap ways of using Pyrethrins as a room fogger. Pyrithrins break down fast and are organic sourced.
The secondary chem in flea bombs is for increasing the effective life of the pyrethrins...

Straight pyrethrins are only around for hrs! Exposure to air and light break them down very, very fast.

Pyrethrins are contact killers. They kill by contact.

FORBID 4F is a mite nuker. Works every time and is far, far less toxic then people think. It is a naturally occurring organic acid that has to be produced in the lab to get the amounts needed for commercial use. The acid (active chemical) is in hand lotions and some shampoo's By being part of an acid chain they use in them.

It kills in the manor of insecticide soaps. it desiccates the bug at all life stages by blocking lipid fat absorption.

Avid is another Mite nuker. I trust Forbid first and then only use a combination - rotation of the two for getting rid of Russet and broad mites.

Trying to beat a seriously infected 60 plant grow with organic methods = :wall:

I hate Neem, Neem is far more toxic then is actually reported. Neem effective life in any form is limited at best..... I hate putting any OIL substance on my plants...PERIOD!

Want them gone and I mean gone in one try?

Use the FORBID and clean/sanitize the grow area.
 
Systemic miticides are not recommended for cannabis....in my professional opinion. This has changed over the years. Reasoning is their are plenty of good products to use that have almost zero chance of being unsafe for growers and consumers...
 
Its a little more complicated then a simple acid. As its MOA affecta more then just the bugs ability to grow.

"
Subchronic and Chronic Toxixicty

Neurotoxicity

Spirodiclofen did not show any evidence of neurotoxicity in the acute and subchronic
neurotoxicity studies. However, in a developmental neurotoxicity study, a decrease in
retention was observed in the memory phase of the water maze for PND 60 females at
all doses.

Endocrine Effects

Spirodiclofen has been shown to have endocrine disruptive effects resulting in direct and
indirect endogenously-mediated toxicological response. Testicular effects were observed
in dogs, rats and mice, manifested as Leydig cell vacuolation in dogs, hypertrophy in
dogs and mice, and hyperplasia progressing to adenomas in rats following chronic
exposure. In female rats, increased incidence of uterine nodules and uterine
adenocarcinoma were observed at terminal sacrifice in the chronic study. Cytoplasmic
vacuolation in the adrenal cortex, accompanied by increased adrenal weight, was
consistently observed in rats, dogs, and mice of both sexes.

Developmental/Reproductive Toxicity
Evidence of developmental toxicity was not observed in the rat and rabbit developmental
studies. In the two-generation reproductive toxicity study, effects were observed in
males [i.e., delayed sexual maturation, decreased testicular spermatid and epididymal
sperm counts (oligospermia); and atrophy of the testes, epididymides, prostate, and
seminal vesicles] and females (i.e., increased severity of ovarian luteal cell
vacuolation/degeneration).

Mutagenicity

Mutagenicity studies conducted on technical spirodiclofen formulation and its major
metabolites did not demonstrate any mutagenic potential.

Carcinogenicity

Chronic toxicity and carcinogenicity studies showed increased incidence of uterine
adenocarcinoma in female rats, Leydig cell adenoma in male rats, and liver tumors in
mice. The Agency classified spirodiclofen as “likely to be carcinogenic to humans” by
the oral route based on evidence of testes Leydig cell adenomas in male rats, uterine
adenomas and/or adenocarcinoma in female rats, and liver tumors in mice.
The results of subchronic, chronic, and other toxicity studies conducted on spirodiclofen are
summarizef..." i can provide



Their are plenty of entirly safe options is all im saying
 
rustyshaclkferd said:
Systemic miticides are not recommended for cannabis....in my professional opinion. This has changed over the years. Reasoning is their are plenty of good products to use that have almost zero chance of being unsafe for growers and consumers...
Click to expand...

Rusty, Neither FORBID or AVID are "Systemic".

They are translaminar.....The active ingr. travels through the top of the leaf from application. To the bottom of the leaf where the target insects feed. They do not travel through the plant system.

The active ingredient in Captain Jack's Deadbug Brew is Spinosad insecticide, that is a naturally occuring soil dwelling bacterium. This is systemic, and SAFE!
 
rustyshaclkferd said:
Its a little more complicated then a simple acid. As its MOA affecta more then just the bugs ability to grow.

"
Subchronic and Chronic Toxixicty

Neurotoxicity

Spirodiclofen did not show any evidence of neurotoxicity in the acute and subchronic
neurotoxicity studies. However, in a developmental neurotoxicity study, a decrease in
retention was observed in the memory phase of the water maze for PND 60 females at
all doses.

Endocrine Effects

Spirodiclofen has been shown to have endocrine disruptive effects resulting in direct and
indirect endogenously-mediated toxicological response. Testicular effects were observed
in dogs, rats and mice, manifested as Leydig cell vacuolation in dogs, hypertrophy in
dogs and mice, and hyperplasia progressing to adenomas in rats following chronic
exposure. In female rats, increased incidence of uterine nodules and uterine
adenocarcinoma were observed at terminal sacrifice in the chronic study. Cytoplasmic
vacuolation in the adrenal cortex, accompanied by increased adrenal weight, was
consistently observed in rats, dogs, and mice of both sexes.

Developmental/Reproductive Toxicity
Evidence of developmental toxicity was not observed in the rat and rabbit developmental
studies. In the two-generation reproductive toxicity study, effects were observed in
males [i.e., delayed sexual maturation, decreased testicular spermatid and epididymal
sperm counts (oligospermia); and atrophy of the testes, epididymides, prostate, and
seminal vesicles] and females (i.e., increased severity of ovarian luteal cell
vacuolation/degeneration).

Mutagenicity

Mutagenicity studies conducted on technical spirodiclofen formulation and its major
metabolites did not demonstrate any mutagenic potential.

Carcinogenicity

Chronic toxicity and carcinogenicity studies showed increased incidence of uterine
adenocarcinoma in female rats, Leydig cell adenoma in male rats, and liver tumors in
mice. The Agency classified spirodiclofen as “likely to be carcinogenic to humans” by
the oral route based on evidence of testes Leydig cell adenomas in male rats, uterine
adenomas and/or adenocarcinoma in female rats, and liver tumors in mice.
The results of subchronic, chronic, and other toxicity studies conducted on spirodiclofen are
summarizef..." i can provide



Their are plenty of entirly safe options is all im saying
Click to expand...


Spirodiclofen

This is a stand alone product that has it's own name.
ENVIDOR 24 SC.

It is NOT FORBID or AVID!

It does come from the same Tetronic acid chain as Spiromesifen.
The Spiromesifen is far, far less toxic then Spirodiclofen. This is why I listed FORBID and not Envidor 24 SC
 
Dr. Who said:
Spirodiclofen

This is a stand alone product that has it's own name.
ENVIDOR 24 SC.

It is NOT FORBID or AVID!

It does come from the same Tetronic acid chain as Spiromesifen.
The Spiromesifen is far, far less toxic then Spirodiclofen. This is why I listed FORBID and not Envidor 24 SC
Click to expand...


Classified under the same federal code... meaning the MOA is the same which also means its effects are the same...toxicity is the dosage....


The effects are the same


Plenty of non toxic methods, like tons....

Group 23 inhibitors of lipid synthesis
 
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Forbid 4f.... is the 23 someone suggested forbid 4f

Jacks has a class 5 Nicotinic Acetylcholine
receptor agonists (allosteric)...oh ya you


You do understand spinosads Class 5 based chemicals are different then class 23 Spiromesifen..

I can provide the classification table id f anyone needs it

And translaminar is systemic it locates itself systemically in your plant tissue...i might be using this term incorrectly...but correct me if im wrong a systemic pesticide is one that has a half life inside your plants tissue...ie like when you smoke it

Toxicity is dosage anf as they are all classified the same dosage of this toxin is still an issue.

And for the umpteenth time ....

Their are safer alternatives that are just as effective



Like M-PEDE at a 1% solution will kill 99% of all stages of life with a 3 min dip the entire plants...OMRI and is just Potassium Salts of Fatty Acids - 49.00%...it also has a toxic dosage of its not actually going to kill you


I feel like im taking crazy pills
 
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rustyshaclkferd said:
And translaminar is systemic it locates itself systemically in your plant tissue...i might be using this term incorrectly...but correct me if im wrong a systemic pesticide is one that has a half life inside your plants tissue...ie like when you smoke it
Click to expand...

Incorrect!

Translaminar only moves from the top of the leaf (application area). To the bottom of the leaf, through the plant tissue.
It does not redistribute it's self through out the whole plant structure......

Systemic - System wide dispersion of the active chemical through out the whole plant structure.
Example: You can do a root drench with a systemic,,and get the chemical dispersed through out the rest of the plants structure

rustyshaclkferd said:
Toxicity is dosage anf as they are all classified the same dosage of this toxin is still an issue.
Click to expand...

This is way to simply put, and partly incorrect.
Toxicity by amount of dosage is how chemical toxins are defined.
BUT,
Not by equal amounts of each.....
Usually by PPB and PPM.
Tested amounts very between any chemical to reach any like amount, toxicity wise.
Some chemicals read very little to no toxicity to Humans.

rustyshaclkferd said:
Classified under the same federal code... meaning the MOA is the same which also means its effects are the same...toxicity is the dosage....
Click to expand...

A few things on this statement. Federal codes are confusing to the non-College Ag educated.
While your statement goes to method of the death (the way the chemical kills it's target). It has NO relationship to the Human toxicity levels. Nor to any toxicity relationships between each other.

FED labeling rules and codes are beyond stupid. This area is simply a generalization that groups together almost non toxic and toxic active chemicals into groups that have only 3 different labels.

Even almost harmless active agents are given labels that suggest complete protective wear and mask use. This seriously confuses those who do not know the chemical used.

I learned a long, long time ago. Dig deep into each chemical you may want to use. Dig deeply into the active chemical, AND any chemical that is listed it rides with.

For the most part, "Rider" chemicals are ones that increase effective active main ingr. life.
Some are there to effect early stage growth and some others even effect reproductive ability's of the target insect group.

The bottom line Rusty...

Researching the active chemicals should be done by anyone thinking of using the product.
From there, you should be able to decide if the product is ok for YOU'RE use.

The actual human TOXICITY of Spiromesifen.
Has NO relationship to the human TOXICITY of Spirodiclofen.

Lastly: You listed a Nicotine chain chemical.

I NEVER use ANY Nicotine/Neonictanoid based chemicals on ANYTHING.... Nasty shit for the environment.......Bee's, fish etc....


This is a nice back and forth discussion that I feel is worth having, so others can understand some of these points better.

You do make some good points Rusty.
 
MoA dont lie...wanting them to be different doesnt make them different.

Jacks has a class 5 Nicotinic Acetylcholine receptor agonists

The MOA are all classified ill link a table for you


We will have to disgree on systemic

It applies to any chemical are absorbed into plant tissue and ones you listed imho count
 
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