40 plants, suggestions? :)

I'm starting a 40 plant indoor growroom soon with soil, hoping to produce some very large plants. I wanted some opinions on LED vs HPS and i think I'll probably end up going with LED unless I get strong opinions against it. I'm doing 20 plants in 2 rooms (so 40). Each room is about 135sq feet.

1. How many watts should I use for my wanted end goal of 40 good mature plants indoor.
2. LED vs HPS

Ps. I live in a pretty remote area and getting HPS lights, ballasts etc would be difficult whereas the LED grow lights would be easier. I'm looking at the 'King Plus 2000w Double Chips LED Grow Light Full Spectrum' and purchasing quite a few of those.

Thanks so much in advance.
 

oilfield bud

Well-Known Member
I'm running 40 plants under 4000w of hps in a 8x8 space. 11 big 1s under 2k and 30 smaller ones under the other 2k In 1 room right now, quality leds are of course better then single ended hps but your gonna pay for them. I have a friend who can pool 22 zips off of 1 600w timber cob without co2 but I think he payed like $1500 each for a 600w. I think you should get a better idea of exactly what kinda light you wanna run, then how many you can afford if your going the led/cob rout and then figure out how your going to cool the rooms, I'm a tight ass so I got 4 ballasts that I can upgrade to double ended hps when I have more space. But I have to run 6000 btu's of ac per 1000w. Leds dont make as much heat but still need to be cooled. Also just order everything off line if you can't fined stuff locally. Usually cheaper to.
 

oilfield bud

Well-Known Member
Also I wouldn't trust that king led. Looks like a big version of mars hydro leds. Sure they will get you bud. But youll get what you payfor. you eather need to build a cob setup or perches one, i would definitely run hps over that king led
 
I'm running 40 plants under 4000w of hps in a 8x8 space. 11 big 1s under 2k and 30 smaller ones under the other 2k In 1 room right now, quality leds are of course better then single ended hps but your gonna pay for them. I have a friend who can pool 22 zips off of 1 600w timber cob without co2 but I think he payed like $1500 each for a 600w. I think you should get a better idea of exactly what kinda light you wanna run, then how many you can afford if your going the led/cob rout and then figure out how your going to cool the rooms, I'm a tight ass so I got 4 ballasts that I can upgrade to double ended hps when I have more space. But I have to run 6000 btu's of ac per 1000w. Leds dont make as much heat but still need to be cooled. Also just order everything off line if you can't fined stuff locally. Usually cheaper to.

Rooms are gonna be climate controlled w powerful A/C's & dehumidifier. Gonna be pumping co2 into the rooms also. I'm doing two separate 135sq ft rooms, 20 plants each. I know I'll have room left over. I have a large budget for the lights if you could drop some links to LED grow lights you suggest off amazon or private sites. tysm!!
 

CCCmints

Well-Known Member
LED vs HPS? No-brainer. HPS is inferior and there are no arguments yet to contest that.


How many watts? I’d build LED fixtures that will at-least match, but may outperform 1000w HPS DE fixtures. I’ve designed one that costs less than $750. You can buy a timber light or one of the other high-end fixtures if you want, but you won’t have the luxury of designing your space around the exact specifications of your fixture. Your initial investment will also be nearly doubled.


The closest Timber LED fixture to my design for a 4’x4’ space is the Redwood CS 4’x4’ (which is a very new product of theirs btw)running you $1,399.00 per fixture. This produces 1420 μmol/s (PPF) and 953 μmol/s (PPFD - covering a 4’x4’ space).


Now if you built your own fixtures, you could do 9x Vero 29 SE Gen 7 3000k COBs running @ 38.7 voltage x 2.1 amperage producing 81.27 watts per diode bringing the total power draw to 731.43 watts encased within a 3’x3’ fixture if you wish or even 4’x4’; it depends on other factors. The PPF for this fixture would be 1647.018 μmol/s with a 4’x4’ PPFD of 1105.381. Half the price of buying from a high-end manufacturer with 14.8038% more usable light output. Only difference being the Redwood TS 4’x4’ claims to achieve its light output with 600 watts while mine draws around 730…But, we must remember its best to assume the numbers advertised by a manufacturer pushing their product are probably skewed a bit. Its also important to note that the pictures Timber uses for their fixtures aren’t always the exact product they’re advertising to be sold (I’ve confirmed this myself) so you’d want to take that into consideration as well when considering the validity of the numbers they advertise.


For 40 “very large plants”, I’d consider 2 plants per fixture. So, 14,628.60 watts total (20 fixtures). People are approaching 2 GPW (Gramps Per Watt) with LED these days. I’d put everything I own on there being someone out there running a room @ 2 GPW consistently with LED. @ 1.2 GPW you’d be just barely under a L per plant (0.979lbs – to be exact). So a 40lb harvest…Which is dependent upon many other factors of-course such as the ability to maintain optimal RH (Relative Humidity), optimal ambient temperatures, adequate ventilation, stabilized fire genetics, substrate system type, nutrients, CO2 supplementation, etc., throughout the entire course of your growing cycle.


The price isn’t low because I cut corners btw. Every component is of the highest quality available. My fixture even uses the exact same heat sinks as Timber’s, which are considered to be the best on the market currently and the dude that produces them is a cool guy. Its also a highly efficient COB LED relative to other designs.



Solis Tek’s 1000 watt HPS DE advertises >2,000 μmol/s meaning 1342.28 PPFD for a 4’x4’ space. Problem is, bulb degradation. Its been tested that the light out put of this bulb is reduced by 28% after 3 months of 12/12 use. So initial output is >2000 PPF and after 3 months you’re at 1440 PPF. Initial PPF if you built out my design, 1647.018 μmol/s with minimal degradation. You want big plants, your cycle is going to be at-least 3 months, testing would be required to determine when HPS’ light output becomes inferior to the LED fixture. Maybe do the community a favor and acquire some meters to collect/post that data for us :)
 
LED vs HPS? No-brainer. HPS is inferior and there are no arguments yet to contest that.


How many watts? I’d build LED fixtures that will at-least match, but may outperform 1000w HPS DE fixtures. I’ve designed one that costs less than $750. You can buy a timber light or one of the other high-end fixtures if you want, but you won’t have the luxury of designing your space around the exact specifications of your fixture. Your initial investment will also be nearly doubled.


The closest Timber LED fixture to my design for a 4’x4’ space is the Redwood CS 4’x4’ (which is a very new product of theirs btw)running you $1,399.00 per fixture. This produces 1420 μmol/s (PPF) and 953 μmol/s (PPFD - covering a 4’x4’ space).


Now if you built your own fixtures, you could do 9x Vero 29 SE Gen 7 3000k COBs running @ 38.7 voltage x 2.1 amperage producing 81.27 watts per diode bringing the total power draw to 731.43 watts encased within a 3’x3’ fixture if you wish or even 4’x4’; it depends on other factors. The PPF for this fixture would be 1647.018 μmol/s with a 4’x4’ PPFD of 1105.381. Half the price of buying from a high-end manufacturer with 14.8038% more usable light output. Only difference being the Redwood TS 4’x4’ claims to achieve its light output with 600 watts while mine draws around 730…But, we must remember its best to assume the numbers advertised by a manufacturer pushing their product are probably skewed a bit. Its also important to note that the pictures Timber uses for their fixtures aren’t always the exact product they’re advertising to be sold (I’ve confirmed this myself) so you’d want to take that into consideration as well when considering the validity of the numbers they advertise.


For 40 “very large plants”, I’d consider 2 plants per fixture. So, 14,628.60 watts total (20 fixtures). People are approaching 2 GPW (Gramps Per Watt) with LED these days. I’d put everything I own on there being someone out there running a room @ 2 GPW consistently with LED. @ 1.2 GPW you’d be just barely under a L per plant (0.979lbs – to be exact). So a 40lb harvest…Which is dependent upon many other factors of-course such as the ability to maintain optimal RH (Relative Humidity), optimal ambient temperatures, adequate ventilation, stabilized fire genetics, substrate system type, nutrients, CO2 supplementation, etc., throughout the entire course of your growing cycle.


The price isn’t low because I cut corners btw. Every component is of the highest quality available. My fixture even uses the exact same heat sinks as Timber’s, which are considered to be the best on the market currently and the dude that produces them is a cool guy. Its also a highly efficient COB LED relative to other designs.



Solis Tek’s 1000 watt HPS DE advertises >2,000 μmol/s meaning 1342.28 PPFD for a 4’x4’ space. Problem is, bulb degradation. Its been tested that the light out put of this bulb is reduced by 28% after 3 months of 12/12 use. So initial output is >2000 PPF and after 3 months you’re at 1440 PPF. Initial PPF if you built out my design, 1647.018 μmol/s with minimal degradation. You want big plants, your cycle is going to be at-least 3 months, testing would be required to determine when HPS’ light output becomes inferior to the LED fixture. Maybe do the community a favor and acquire some meters to collect/post that data for us :)

TYSM for the all the help, it really is worth so much! It's funny, I came up with 14,000 watts as the best bet from doing some super basic research so I'm so glad you're confirming this :)
I'm probably gonna go with purchasing the high-end ones as I don't want to have to fly in all the separate parts. I'll be pumping CO2, AC & a dehumidifier so I hope to get a fat yield. I'll probably end up getting x10 600watt high-end LED's, will that be enough to grow all 40 sufficiently? tysm!
 

CCCmints

Well-Known Member
TYSM for the all the help, it really is worth so much! It's funny, I came up with 14,000 watts as the best bet from doing some super basic research so I'm so glad you're confirming this :)
I'm probably gonna go with purchasing the high-end ones as I don't want to have to fly in all the separate parts. I'll be pumping CO2, AC & a dehumidifier so I hope to get a fat yield. I'll probably end up getting x10 600watt high-end LED's, will that be enough to grow all 40 sufficiently? tysm!
You'd rather spend $13,000 more on an inferior light so that you can avoid flying in extra parts...? You're getting a mini-split, dehumidifier, CO2 generator, and a million other things to set up an elaborate growing operation but think avoiding extra shipments is worth 13 thousand dollars? Your questions lead me to believe you're way, way out of your league.
 

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
Do you think a 14k+ watt operation with 40 plants is simple...?
Other then the chop and trim yes i do. Its a 1 man gig till the end game. You'll find out soon enough. The hardest part is staying clean enough. Cant stress on how important it is to keep your floors clean. Like twice weekly clean. Go peat moss if your even questioning that 10-14k watts is hard. Or a coco mix i guess, but I think one would learn more going peat soilless.
 

CCCmints

Well-Known Member
Each "room" is less than 12'x12'?
Why would you want to use 14,000W of led when you can get the job done with 8,000W of HPS (or other HID)???
And people promising g/w harvest #'s under led are just not being honest. Sooo many variables
The amount of light used isn't relevant to which lighting system he should use. Its fairly clear he likely won't be able to do an operation of this scale regardless, so that factor wasn't really important to me while making my post. The GPW figures being posted can rarely be totally confirmed for both sides, LED and HPS...Why would you use 8,000W of HPS when you can get the job done with 6,000W of LED?
 

CCCmints

Well-Known Member
One reason might be because for 2600 bucks in lights your guaranteed 20 doors on a low yielding strain with 4-5 weeks veg time in 10 gallon pots of peat moss first time out.
So $325 for an HPS fixture and $750 for an LED fixture. You need to replace the bulbs every cycle, which we'll hypothetically say is 3 months long, meaning with 8k watts, that's a $736/cycle cost differential between LED and HPS in bulb replacement alone. Which means disregarding energy savings, 4.619 cycles until LEDs initial investment ends and profit begins. Or, 1.15 years.

And of-course this is only if a 1,000 watt bulb, ballast, reflector, and dedicated bulb cooling system averages out to $325/light, which it does not; especially since we are comparing it to an LED design using only the highest quality components. How much more than $325 does the best HPS build money can buy cost?

Basically, if you want to grow for 3 months then quit and pray you miraculously sell your lights for 30% of what you payed, then maybe consider HPS if you want to possibly break even.
 

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
So $325 for an HPS fixture and $750 for an LED fixture. You need to replace the bulbs every cycle, which we'll hypothetically say is 3 months long, meaning with 8k watts, that's a $736/cycle cost differential between LED and HPS in bulb replacement alone. Which means disregarding energy savings, 4.619 cycles until LEDs initial investment ends and profit begins. Or, 1.15 years.

And of-course this is only if a 1,000 watt bulb, ballast, reflector, and dedicated bulb cooling system averages out to $325/light, which it does not; especially since we are comparing it to an LED design using only the highest quality components. How much more than $325 does the best HPS build money can buy cost?

Basically, if you want to grow for 3 months then quit and pray you miraculously sell your lights for 30% of what you payed, then maybe consider HPS if you want to possibly break even.
Yes. 330.00 per DE set up. And no one is replacing their bulbs like you think. I promise you.
If you and the op go LED thats awesome, I was only telling you the truth on yields and total grow times and exactly how to do it. You'll believe more of what i say once you start and see for yourself.
 

CCCmints

Well-Known Member
Yes. 330.00 per DE set up. And no one is replacing their bulbs like you think. I promise you.
If you and the op go LED thats awesome, I was only telling you the truth on yields and total grow times and exactly how to do it. You'll believe more of what i say once you start and see for yourself.
I think you're underestimating the affect your experience has on the success of your crops and you're attributing that success to the lighting system you're using. Maybe its you who's responsible for the fat yields? These numbers are sourced from real science and real math. Per watt, LED is producing more light at the spectrum cannabis thrives in than HPS. That's what the science and math tells us. Can I prove that isn't just theoretical? Not yet. Do I want to? Oh. My. God...You have no idea, and that time will come.

I really wonder what would happen if you were to go simple. Take a portion of your earnings and dedicate a nice 4'x4' space to DIY COB LED. Try to replicate the environment you're running on a smaller scale to create the most scientific experiment possible. Its not like you think it would be a total wash. You're going to profit. At-least you'll know if the lighting system you've been using for however many years has finally somehow been surpassed. The science and math is there. I'd say give it a shot. I'd do it for us if I could. I'm just in an unfortunate situation at the moment.

As far as replacing the bulbs goes, 28% degradation after 3 months was confirmed using a meter. Knowingly growing with a severely diminished light is bad practice.
 

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
As far as replacing the bulbs goes, 28% degradation after 3 months was confirmed using a meter. Knowingly growing with a severely diminished light is bad practice.
Degradation Smegradation, nobody is relamping like that. Even large rooms of SE HPS it is rare to find someone only doing single runs on batches of lamps. That is just not reality.

Led needs to still step up the spectrum game. I am hoping to see something that matches the Hortilux Blue MH hit the market with a bump in efficiency but still waiting.

The OP should look at those Hortilux Blue's or the blending of HPS and MH or Plasma if growing for quality. Could just follow the Gavita recommendation of 1
plasma : 1 hps and Kill it :hump:
 
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