The ULTIMATE Flowering Spectrum

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
Holy shit at that spectral shift Fonz! no idea it was that bad, well Philips says the new elite shift is "minimal"and fixed; hence it's dimming ability and e ballast. I even notice a shift on my All starts when run from vert to horz position. It's an MH bulb at heart so we can't expect to much stability:-P

The coil is for safety and grants them the open fixture rating on the bulb.
 

heckler73

Well-Known Member
Holy shit at that spectral shift Fonz! no idea it was that bad, well Philips says the new elite shift is "minimal"and fixed; hence it's dimming ability and e ballast. I even notice a shift on my All starts when run from vert to horz position. It's an MH bulb at heart so we can't expect to much stability:-P

The coil is for safety and grants them the open fixture rating on the bulb.
Is it mechanical or electromagnetic safety? Looking at a closeup of the bulb, those coils (there are two) appear to be electrically connected.
To me that implies there is some inductance. It may just be used to maintain electrical field direction.

Or am I looking at the wrong lamp?
http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.com/l/lamps/high-intensity-discharge-lamps/ceramic-metal-halide/energy-advantage-cdm-lamps-with-allstart-technology/928601174701_na/

Does Philips have a presentation or something explaining the technology of these bulbs in more detail?
I could just be seeing things... and smoking :bigjoint:
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
Holy shit at that spectral shift Fonz! no idea it was that bad, well Philips says the new elite shift is "minimal"and fixed; hence it's dimming ability and e ballast. I even notice a shift on my All starts when run from vert to horz position. It's an MH bulb at heart so we can't expect to much stability:-P

The coil is for safety and grants them the open fixture rating on the bulb.
Still, the 860w run at 1000w produces an awesome bloom spectrum. Quite a bit better than HPS or MH even when combined.
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
You should get a 330 all start too. Compare the 2. I'm loving the ones in the "shared garden" (arghh). Ill have them in my own garden shortly. Got a good deal on ballasts and wing reflecotrs from growers house. Probably throw the Apollo 10 in the middle. Finally I'll have a lighting set up worth journaling again. That may not even be a word.

How much difference in heat is there from the 1000w hps?
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
You should get a 330 all start too. Compare the 2. I'm loving the ones in the "shared garden" (arghh). Ill have them in my own garden shortly. Got a good deal on ballasts and wing reflecotrs from growers house. Probably throw the Apollo 10 in the middle. Finally I'll have a lighting set up worth journaling again. That may not even be a word.

How much difference in heat is there from the 1000w hps?
I'm finally at a point where I can agree with your statement, "Blue causes stretch and Red causes tighter growth."

After using the ULTIMATE spectrum to finish plants and doing a side by side with a CMH I can see what you are saying in FLOWER. This is what I did:

I took an almost finish plant out from under the ULTIMATE spectrum and stuck it under the CMH for the last 2 weeks and found the once tighter grown bud to now have stretched out and become less dense. The individual calyxes themselves actually started reaching towards the light and spreading out.

Then I took an almost finished flowering plant from under the CMH and stuck them under the ULTIMATE spectrum and saw the buds become tighter, denser and also found them to ripen fully as opposed to the CMH.

From this I can agree that in FLOWER, blue light will cause continued growth(photosynthesis) upward, leafy and green where the buds will suffer and not fully develop to that plump, dense form.

A red heavy spectrum (590nm-700nm) will create denser growth and shorter, stockier flowers. A red heavier spectrum will cause the buds to ripen faster and fuller.

I want to also note that I removed both DEEP PURPLE LEDS because the added blue was less beneficial during the last half of flower and much preferred to use the 1000w HPS along with the 4 x red h150's only.

I realize that UV light causes dense trichome growth where they start stacking. I think the best time to use this is in the last few days of ripening. I have stated before that I felt that ALL types of blue light will cause trichome growth stacking, but now I would like to change that statement up a bid from my findings.

I believe that UVA-UVB is better combined with 1000w HPS rather than just deep blue because of the stretch factor I just explained. 400nm-470nm blue light is within the photosynthesis growth zone. UVA-UVB is not and therefore will not start stretching the buds. I still believe that ALL blue light will cause the calyxes to get saturated with trichome stacking, but UVA and B will NOT cause the buds to start spreading out and prevent them from finishing whilst keeping them covered in a snow cap.

When speaking of vegetative growth, a blue heavy spectrum IS ideal due to the shorter internode spacing, darker/fuller green leaves and thicker/stockier stems. I still think that a 12/12 light cycle should be initiated with that SAME blue heavy spectrum to keep stretch to a minimum. But once flower set is established(many points of flower sites) then it's time to switch to that red heavy(590nm-700nm) spectrum to complete the ripening process.

All one has to do is observe Nature to understand why and how this works. Come Summer, the light spectrum outdoors is saturated with blue light for 14 + hours a day and the spectrum only shifts past 630nm during the late afternoon and sunset hours. Come fall where the days become shorter and less blue light is present for the majority of the day. The Sun also becomes "less intense."

This brings me to my next point/idea:

I have always thought it best to start veg with a lower wattage and move to the higher wattage in flower. This does NOT go along with Nature's ways. It is MUCH more important to boost the 590nm-700nm part of the spectrum as opposed to just increasing wattage during the last half of flower. This is where you will start to see the more compact flower growth.

My next flower cycle, I will will be utilizing the 860w Allstart CMH on a 1000w MH ballast. This lamp is rated 3700K, but with the spectral shift from running it at 1000w instead of the factory 860w I estimate the K rating to be around 3000K. It will be interesting to see how airy the flowers will be compared to the RED heavier ULTIMATE spectrum this time around.

I believe now that HPS has it's advantage during the LAST half of flower and not anytime sooner ONLY due to the fact that it has such a high red:blue ratio. YOU DO NOT want to use blue light during the last half of flower. I now believe that UV-A/B has a supreme advantage over blue light because of how it will not cause the plants to remain green and cause the bud growth to spread out and become airy in the last half of flower.

Please leave your comments/thoughts. Results of the ULTIMATE spectrum soon to come. The buds are looking FIRE FIRE FIRE!
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Trying to understand your veg thoughts. Seems like you are saying use as much blue as you would red for flower. Hmmmm. I am vegging under first 22w of 5000K RP blue. 2 clones are rockin it so hard that the 2 clones taken a week later aren't getting any light (due to light box size limitations). I see no reason to add more watts, although I did, but that was because I am trying to get some light to the shaded clones

New pics tomorrow in my thread
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member

Fonzarelli

Active Member

bicit

Well-Known Member
Fonzarelli- Do you think it's possible to mimic your results with only LED's? Have you ever tried in the past?

ETA: Have you ever tried supplementing the sun itself with LED light?
 

Slipon

Well-Known Member
my new LED fixture for flowering:

DSC01347.jpg


120x3W (actual watt 288W)

8x620nm
16x630nm
32x640nm
32x660nm
8x700nm

and

8x455nm
16x6500K cool white

 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
I will be very interested to see this panel in action

Did you consider going with more 630 and less 640/660?
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Already subbed. Didn't realize this was you. FYI, from another site...

While 'every lumen (or rather, PPFD) is sacred', I'm of the camp that would prefer a higher level of (adjustable) full-intensity, multi-spectrum (i.e. 'white') light incorporated into the main fixture, for that very reason.

And with the recent increases in the efficiency of neutral whites, there's no reason why you can't get perfectly good results with just a two-channel, adjustable led fixture (neutral white, and red), supplementing with the aforementioned only as needed.

For reference, here are the LUXEON

Couple that with strong white light (green-response chlorophyll extending throughout and deep into leaf structures, with a net effect at or near that of the (mostly) surface-level blue and reds), which also takes care of most of the ~660nm+ you actually need for photomorphogenesis - and you can get by with 630nm reds just fine.

(i.e. 630nm red is ~95% of the PSR of 660nm, AND they currently still have ~20-30% greater radiometric efficiency - as well as being cheaper than the deep reds - so there's more 'bang for the buck'):

Something like that would probably meet the needs of ~95% of today's growers.


 
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