First Timer. LEDS and 2 foot by 2 foot of space! whats best for me?

smokkin

Active Member
Criteria....Stealth:Small space: Low maintenance: Low running costs.
The plant must not smell enough to arousing any questions off neighbours. About 20-30 metres from proposed plants (the back of the shed) to their back door.
The temp here goes from average 3 jan to 27 july so never that warm.
Ill not be heating it, unless some1 has a low low energy way of heating. otherwise it will be seasonal growing.
For the light i was thinking apollo 4 but that is open for debate.
Not decided on what to grow in yet.
Still researching!
Lookin for any1's 2 cents worth.
How much space is really needed, including the light from floor to cealing or Should i get a small tent.
I was thinking of an auto flowering for a start and have some plant outdoors for cuttings when the auto is cooked.
I am not trying to grow for nothing im trying to grow without been noticed. i would love to see what i could achieve but here aint the place for that.
So let rip and thanks in advance. I'll keep researching and post what i find for any1 in the same boat. i dont expect mericals
 

smokkin

Active Member
found this.
I've been reading so much about lights recently that I decided to put some of the info I've found in one place. I'll just look at each type of light and some pros and cons and applications of each. I also want to mention problems with guidelines like watts-per-plant or grams-per-watt. Each type of light has a different efficiency and therefor puts out a different amount of light per watt. We shouldn't even really be comparing lights with lumens. Lumen is defined as a measure of the power of light perceived by the human eye. Plants do not care about how bright the light is to a human eye. The links directly below discuss the wavelengths of light that plants use. This makes it a little difficult to compare lights that emit a huge variety of wavelengths versus only specific wavelengths (like LEDs). Take this into consideration in your lighting ventures.


Incandescent
Incandescent bulbs are going to be outlawed by 2014. They are very inefficient. That means that a lot of the power they use is converted to heat instead of light. These are never used for grow lights so we'll move on.

LEDs
LEDs are quickly becoming a viable option. LED grow lights come in panels because each single LED usually puts out less than 3W right now (3W being the brightest and most expensive). Low wattage LED panels found on ebay should be used for nothing more than light supplements and clones. LED panels usually have at least two types of LED on board. Each LED only puts out one specific wavelength but plants need a variety of wavelengths to grow. The link on photosynthesis above goes into detail on this subject. If you are planning to use LEDs then make sure you have blue lights for veg and red/orange for flower.

High power LED panels are very expensive right now. A 1000W HPS bulb is about $30 but the equivalent LED panel is about $2,000
. On the plus side, LEDs are the most efficient forms of lighting. Currently, the brightest LEDs output about 150 lumens/watt. That's about the same efficiency as high powered HPS lamps (>600W). LEDs are making progress every day so it probably won't be too long before we're all using LEDs, but right now they're a bit pricey.

Compact Fluorescent (CFL)
CFL lights are very common for small grows. They are pretty efficient (but not as good as MH and HPS) and are pretty small. They don't put out a lot of heat so they are good for small closet grows. CFLs are available in a wide range of color temperatures so they can be used for vegging (~6000K) and flowering (~2700K). These bulbs fit in normal household fixtures (no ballast needed). This makes it easy to make your own lighting fixtures with power strips and socket adapters to be able to plug the light into a two-prong outlet. To maximize light delivered to the plants the bulbs must be very close to the plants. Not touching, but they should be within a few inches of eachother. This type of lighting is good for smaller plants. Those of you wanting to grow trees should look into HID lighting.

T5
T5 fluorescent bulbs are a little hard to compare to other lighting due to problems in ratings which is discussed here. Like CFLs, these have less heat output than MH and HPS so they can be placed closer to the plants and used in more confined spaces. They are available in larger sized fixtures (hundreds of watts) that usually come with a reflector and ballast built in. Again, these are better for smaller plants instead of giant plants. Here is a wiki on T5s if you're interested: T5 on Wikipedia

HID Lighting
The following lights are categorized as HID lighting. These lights are about 8 times as efficient as incandescent bulbs and twice as efficient as CFLs and other fluorescents. These lights are usually too powerful for clones. Lower output lights should be used because if the plants are photosynthesizing too much before they have a root structure then they will dehydrate themselves.

Metal Halide (MH)
With MH lights we're getting into bigger grows. Power ranges from about 75W to over 1000W. The light spectrum here tends to be a little cooler than HPS bulbs so MH bulbs are better suited to growing in the veg stage. These lights need ballasts to operate. These lights tend to have a lower lumen/watt output than HPS bulbs but have a wider light spectrum.

Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)
Along with LEDs, these are some of the newest lights on the market. These lights have about the same lumens/watt as regular MH bulbs but have a much wider light spectrum. I expect that these will become very popular since it appears that one bulb can be used all through veg and flower. These bulbs work with analog HPS ballasts but not digital ones. Digital ballasts for these lights will come along soon and will be able to operate these lights more efficiently.


High Pressure Sodium (HPS)
HPS bulbs have even more light output density than MH bulbs but tend to be on the warmer end of the light spectrum lending them to be great for flowering. These lights can be incredibly bright (~145,000 lumens from 1000W). These lights also need ballasts and produce a lot of heat so for higher wattage models, ventilation for the bulbs is necessary so as to not turn your grow room into an oven.

Summary
So what does this all mean? Well... there are a lot of factors that come into play. Here are a few bullet points, though.
-CFLs and fluorescents for smaller grows and clones.
-LEDs are pretty expensive right now but should become cheaper over time.
-HID lighting for bigger grows, but they usually require a ballast.
-Blue light/daylight/about 5700k bulbs for veg.
-Red light/soft white/about 2700k for flower.
-Higher power = Higher Heat= More Light = Bigger Growth = More Yield
 

jcmjrt

Well-Known Member
The sticky that was referenced does have some good info in it on LEDs...especially the first pages. Read them and then read them again. Real vs theoretical watts, coverage, wattage, quality of LEDs and bins, etc. Smell can be controlled with a carbon cannister; you can buy or diy...do some searches. I'm not sure how to answer how much space is needed...how much space is needed for what? Your grow space should help determine what you purchase for lighting...so you should work that out first.
 

smokkin

Active Member
cheers for responces mojo and cann...n. ive been reading about 20 hours now on various fourms and had a smoke or 2 and 4got half what i read.lol but im now thinking cfl and hydro.cos of size. an led it has to be 2 foot away from plant. so 1 ft pot +2-3 foot plant +2 ft space+ inclosing it is 8ft. thats a big box. the perchases start monday. tent, hydro thinking flood mehod. and lights. i need to lfind out what is the best plant arangment. 1 plant 2plants or 4 and keep them small or autoflowering.
 

cannabiscultivation

Active Member
cheers for responces mojo and cann...n. ive been reading about 20 hours now on various fourms and had a smoke or 2 and 4got half what i read.lol but im now thinking cfl and hydro.cos of size. an led it has to be 2 foot away from plant. so 1 ft pot +2-3 foot plant +2 ft space+ inclosing it is 8ft. thats a big box. the perchases start monday. tent, hydro thinking flood mehod. and lights. i need to lfind out what is the best plant arangment. 1 plant 2plants or 4 and keep them small or autoflowering.
I just did this 2'x2'...3 plants ufo's rock hard thumb buds. 24 grams each.
all led ...1 foot during veg....5 or 6 inches away during flower.

I have switched to 300 watt led lights to get a little better coverage and penetration.
and upped the plant count...
 
Greetings All: Happened to see the title of thread and, due to my similar circumstance, decided to pitch my 2cents into the mix. This is my first for several things...first-time LED user/indoor grower/post, so please forgive me if I err. I too had need of a "stealth" grow system. I chose a DIY cabinet approx. 24' x 48" x 60" that would fit inside my bedroom closet. Actually, it occupies half of a sliding-door-type closet. My system consisted of the following: 1- XtremeLed 130w (made by StealthGrow) placed in the traditional overhead position, 1 - T5HO fixture w/4-2ft 24w (Total=96w) placed vertically on back wall, 1 - CFL 55w (recently added to accommodate the 'C-99", which I chose to Bonzai), 2 - 6" fans (circulation), 1 - Typical in-ceiling exhaust fan (bathroom, etc..) and, a device of my own invention\design... Twin, motorized turntables (see pic - slightly modified since photo). My reason\thoughts for this were as follows: I wanted to maximize the effects of whatever light was available within a very limited space. With the LED's "alleged" inability to penetrate the canopy from the top, I felt there might be a need for side-lighting. Hence, the T5HO fixture placed vertically in back. LED from above and, T5 from side. But, only ONE SIDE. Thus bringing me to the point...finally...the "turntables." I utilized a motor from a BBQ rotisserie as a drive and a wheel from a razor scooter contacting both platters to act as a transmission (original design incorporated belt drive...a mistake). By rotating at approx. 1 rotation=2 min. I suppose/theorize/believe it eliminates, for the most part, any weak spots in the lighting. All sides get equal light. I have approximately 1.5 weeks until harvest. Therefore, it's hard to say exactly what the yield may be, yet. Besides being my first indoor grow it is also my first experience with LED, obviously. However, at this point, I will estimate somewhere around 3oz / 2oz / 1.5oz from the SFV OG x 2 and C-99, respectively. All in all, I am not dissatisfied with the performance of the this LED or, FL/CFL lights being employed. In fact, because of my limited experience with LED/IndoorGrows, I don't really know what to expect. A few pics: IMG_20130117_150631.jpgC-99Closeup.jpgSFVOGFinalWeek.jpgSFVOGwk5.jpgC-99week3.jpgFinalSetup2.jpgFinalSetup.jpg
 

smokkin

Active Member
cheers. thats what im after! good man. 2*2**3plants. ufo135? well minded=24grams .
led 1 foot during veg , 5-6 inches away for flowering. hope u dont mind me asking ,
hydro or soil. was the ufo 135w and its make wouldu recomend it or something else.
 

smokkin

Active Member
greens werks. GOOD STUFF. its a bit bigger that i can go.(cant do it in the house the womans parents will be about and an 8*8 shed it will have to look like a cubboard so hight is a problem).can i ask what that puts ur electrical up by. 130+96+55+then neat turntable+ fans by x amount of hours a month. the reason i ask is my electric bill will dictate what i get. then size. i was thinking clones cos of lack of light . ur t5s i assume are 6500k and ull change the bulbs for flowering 1s when tthe time comes. i was thinkin rotissary but for cfls. if adding adishional lighting ias there a minimun amount of light that is no use.light that is not strong enough penetration to do any good but them still to be in the right sprectrems.
 

cannabiscultivation

Active Member
cheers. thats what im after! good man. 2*2**3plants. ufo135? well minded=24grams .
led 1 foot during veg , 5-6 inches away for flowering. hope u dont mind me asking ,
hydro or soil. was the ufo 135w and its make would u recommend it or something else.
The 300 watter rectangle at ebay sold by duece bigelow2000 is one I just got for 215.00 I would recommend that.
but a 135 by mixwholesale or ledlight company in shenzeng would work very well if you are short on cash. I just picked up a 135watt for $76. new.
Had to wait for china mail. So an extra week to save almost half...or so???

backg2.jpgSativa and indica side by side.


IMG_6732aaaazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.jpgun-named indica



IMG_6872.jpgsame indica



]
20130105_095852.jpg same curing

2013-03-17 15.32.12.jpgnew licensed grow white super skunk



Perlite vermiculite and a very light seed starting soil for taste (equal parts)...technaflora recipe for success nutes.
 

smokkin

Active Member
jcmjrt:
my Q&A
if it i cant get to the plants for a day or 2 they will be ok. (what to grow it in soil, hydro)
how much it costs to run . (electric bill)
based on the electric bill build the optimun size and optimun lighting for that space.
in that space what is best to grow. clones, plants or autoflowering. how much space is needed for air for the plants cos it would be as air tight as i could have it. i would prefer to spend a 100 extra now a buy once and buy right,
if i was told t5 96w and hans 56w led was the best i could hope for, growing power and that was for 2.5*2.5 space that road would be travelled. if i was informed anything below 150w of light is no good to grow then what is?
 

jcmjrt

Well-Known Member
It depends on how automated your system is how long you can be away. I'm assuming that you are using a timer for lights so I'd think that you could leave for a day or two. If you need longer then you could look at an automated watering system....tropf blumat comes to mind. I haven't tried the blumats yet but have been considering them as a good way to keep an even moist (not wet) soil...and of course it allows for one to be away for a few days. I grow in organic soil.

The electric bill depends on what you pay for electric. You can figure it when you find out what you are paying per kilowatt hour. If you want the lowest electric bill, then LEDs are probably the best way to go but you'll have to have the money to spend up front to get good LEDs or you're wasting your time and money. If you are going for about 2 foot or less plants then you'll need about another couple feet of headroom for a fixture for about a foot+ of space above the plants during veg. So if you can go 4 foot up, you'll be OK as long as you keep the plants 2 foot or less. 3 Watt LEDs will work well for such short plants. I'd go with two Hans Panels for 2.5 x 2.5. Of course, if you can handle a little more heat, you could buy one Hans Panel for now and supplement with fluorescent. If you don't want to go that route, then a quality 2 foot T5 would do well for you...but it'll be a little more expensive to run (albeit cheaper to purchase up front) and a little hotter than the LEDs. Everything is a trade-off.

Now if your space isn't set at all...look at fixtures that you want - LED or T5 tend to grow well directly under the fixture and maybe 2 - 6 inches off each side. It will always grow best what is directly underneath. Look at the physical dimensions of the fixture that you are interested in and add the above 2 - 6 inches off each side and you have the coverage area. I would probably go for less than 4 inches to the side because I like some hard, frosty buds but you'll get some more hash makings if you go with 6 inches so...it's your choice. If you wanted to go with two Hans Panels which are 10 x 15 inches each, then I would build a space that was 24 X 20 X 48 (if you want no more than about 2 foot tall plants and don't want to side light) inches and if you get the nutes, ventilation, etc right, you should get some very nice buds at a low electrical cost.

The absolute wattage that you need to grow is usually thought around 40 - 50 watts per ft2 but you can get away with less when you get the grow area well covered and when you use higher quality leds because they are more efficient.
 
greens werks. GOOD STUFF. its a bit bigger that i can go.(cant do it in the house the womans parents will be about and an 8*8 shed it will have to look like a cubboard so hight is a problem).can i ask what that puts ur electrical up by. 130+96+55+then neat turntable+ fans by x amount of hours a month. the reason i ask is my electric bill will dictate what i get. then size. i was thinking clones cos of lack of light . ur t5s i assume are 6500k and ull change the bulbs for flowering 1s when tthe time comes. i was thinkin rotissary but for cfls. if adding adishional lighting ias there a minimun amount of light that is no use.light that is not strong enough penetration to do any good but them still to be in the right sprectrems.
Running w/ LED@130w + T5HO@96w + 6" Fans x2@25w + Exhaust fan (wattage unknown) + Turntable (wattage unknown) for 18/6 veg cycle (approx. 540hrs/30day period) my electric bill (including whatever I use for living purposes never exceeded $75. I estimated approximately $35-$40/month operating cost. The 55w CFL was only recently added (2 weeks ago) so the totals will be a bit more. But, only slightly.
 
I'm not so sure about the distance-to-plant of 2ft. with LED. I ran my 130w LED 8"-10" from the tops with no problems. Air circulation will definitely play a factor in this, though. However, the radiant heat from LED lighting is dramatically less than HID systems. HID = distance in feet...LED = distance in inches.
 
Top