Root Development vs Plant Growth

closet.cult

New Member
they get root bound searching for nutes, i flower in 1 gallon pots and yield 2-3 ounces per plant...but i feed every single day...they don't get rrotbound because they don't need more roots..i'm bringing the nutes to them every day so they don't need to go find them, same with water.......it's more work growing in small containers but i find it very rewarding.....

also i find in my small pots i get less roots but they are big and fat, but in larger ones they are tiny and stringy but there is tons of them.........if you do it right in small pots they will develop large strong roots.....
i gave them top quality organic nutrients at every feeding. plus superthrive at times. are you saying they weren't receiving enough nutrients and that's why the roots grew untill they ran out of space?

i suppose i could up the nutes.

skunk, does this sound right to you?
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
How low can you go? I don't know...

...but the fact is, if the fine art of bonsai was a simple matter of using small pots then it wouldn't be a fine art.
 

000420

terpenophenolic
i gave them top quality organic nutrients at every feeding. plus superthrive at times. are you saying they weren't receiving enough nutrients and that's why the roots grew untill they ran out of space?

i suppose i could up the nutes.

skunk, does this sound right to you?
this could be the cause, it's not easy growing in small pots but it works great.....at some point even if you are feeding every day, the pot may be so small that you either need to make the doses stronger or up the frequency......because the pot can only hold so much, at some point it becomes basically like hydro-ponics with soil as a medium..in my case, they will react quick to fertilizer, if i miss a feeding they show it the next day already starting to show deficiencies, if you grow in small pots, you really have to be on top of it, things can go bad quick.....:peace:
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
i gave them top quality organic nutrients at every feeding. plus superthrive at times. are you saying they weren't receiving enough nutrients and that's why the roots grew untill they ran out of space?

i suppose i could up the nutes.

skunk, does this sound right to you?
No, from what i know of root behaviour, is that they will seek out the boundaries of any given grow space. They will always grow till they run out of space. They hit a boundary and they go somewhere else. The plant doesn't know that a plentiful supply of food is on the way, so it's the roots' instinct to spread as far as they can. In nature this would be essential for survival. The roots should not outgrow the pots, really this is impossible for them as they cannot grow in the light.

I don't believe nutrients have much to do with it, and to push your nutes past usual ec levels is asking for trouble.
 

000420

terpenophenolic
No, from what i know of root behaviour, is that they will seek out the boundaries of any given grow space. They will always grow till they run out of space. They hit a boundary and they go somewhere else. The plant doesn't know that a plentiful supply of food is on the way, so it's the roots' instinct to spread as far as they can. In nature this would be essential for survival. The roots should not outgrow the pots, really this is impossible for them as they cannot grow in the light.

I don't believe nutrients have much to do with it, and to push your nutes past usual ec levels is asking for trouble.
Nutrients don't have much to do with it?...may be because your hydro you don't up the EC, in soil it's a major factor that I add an extra dose of fish emulsion or guano..if I give a 3 foot tall plant in a 1 gallon bucket a normal dose of fertilizer every feeding it would die, there is not enough soil to hold the nutrient solution that the plant needs, so you must increase the nutrients in the solution, or increase the the frequency of times they get nutrients(like in hydro)..one or the other....or they will die from nutrient deficiency....:peace:
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
Nutrients don't have much to do with it?...may be because your hydro you don't up the EC, in soil it's a major factor that I add an extra dose of fish emulsion or guano..if I give a 3 foot tall plant in a 1 gallon bucket a normal dose of fertilizer every feeding it would die, there is not enough soil to hold the nutrient solution that the plant needs, so you must increase the nutrients in the solution, or increase the the frequency of times they get nutrients(like in hydro)..one or the other....or they will die from nutrient deficiency....:peace:
I don't understand what you mean. I up my ec levels too, that's a standard no matter what sized pots you grow in.

I feed my plants to the limit, I wouldn't add any more ferts to the solution because this would cause an overnute.

I agree though the frequency of waterings will go up. I had mine sitting in a tray, so they'd sit in the feed for 24 hours anyway.
 

000420

terpenophenolic
I don't understand what you mean. I up my ec levels too, that's a standard no matter what sized pots you grow in.

I feed my plants to the limit, I wouldn't add any more ferts to the solution because this would cause an overnute.

I agree though the frequency of waterings will go up. I had mine sitting in a tray, so they'd sit in the feed for 24 hours anyway.

LOL...well I guess I can't say what I mean...long story short I grow the same size plants in 1 gallon pots as I do in 3.5 gallon pots, same yields and I'm not pot bound......also i guess i should say I don't take my nutes into dangerous levels just from a mild soulution to a max strength but never beyond the max strength at that point i increase frequency of dosage....i guess i depends on the point of growth, in the begining i start with milder solution and then gradually build up but never to toxic levels.at the point i can't make the solution any stronger i increase frequency..:peace::peace:
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
I don't believe nutrients have much to do with it, and to push your nutes past usual ec levels is asking for trouble.

I think that this is true.
I feed all of my plants virtually every time I water, the plants in small(16 oz) containers most definitely need many many more frequent waterings than those in larger containers.
Because I use a fairly dilute fert solution I very rarely have had any problems with over fertilization.....Some of my small plants need to be fed/watered two to three times a day(esp outdoors).
I think that it is entirely possible to realize a harvest of well over 28 grams per 16oz container.
I easily obtain harvests upwards of three to four ounces from my .71 gallon containers indoors and out!
 

tahoe58

Well-Known Member
welll...I am intrigued with all this discussion. I have six clones of my Top44 femgirlie that has begun and so far lived in a 5gal pot from day one. The clones I am going to put into 1 gal pots all based on the discussion/debate here. I guess it will be very important to watch nutes and water schedule/cycles....I am still waiting to put these clonesinto soil....prolly next week? thanks again for all this great info!
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
Hey tahoe, 1 gallon is still a fairly big container and i can't see you having any problems at all. You could quite happily veg' for 2months from seed in that sized container, and in soil you should be looking around 2oz per plant.

Quite happily veg' for a month from clone... and you should achieve the same amount.

I always count soil as being about half of hydro'... maybe a good soil grower would get closer to the hydro' yield, I just go from my own experience. I wasn't very good at organic.
 

bongspit

New Member
whats up skunk? My question is...how are the roots for hydro and soil different? If you let soil get root bound and they grow fine, then if you had a way to contain roots in a hydro system...would they grow as well? Like a smaller reservour maybe...
disclaimer: I have been reading this thread on and off since i have been at RIU, so if this question has been axed nevermind.
 

ronbud1963

Well-Known Member
Skunkushybrid ive got a couple of questions im very surprised that no one has asked.First,usally with using small pots going into flower its the lost of fan leaves if they are root bound that i worry about.If you loose these you get very little bud,imo.But proof is in the pics.This is a amsome thead thanks to everyone that has done grows using Small pots.I cannot disput that this works,i just would be careful about loosing fan leaves.Question;How often did you water comparded to nuting or did you use a light solution with every water?Also how many days before the chop did you stop giving it nutes?Thanks in advance! Stay Safe!And thanks again for this awesome thead even tho it took quite awhile to read it.Ps i believe I will start using much smaller pots.
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
I nuted to the EC levels recommended by Advanced Nutrients. I'd already grown the strain a few times before so i had a good idea what it could take nute-wise. So I nuted every feed, and didn't flush once. I stopped the nutes a week before harvest, and used a product called Final Phase to help flush out the plants more quickly. 7 days was enough, the pots dried right out after 4 days, then i just left them to dry even further before the final day.

I fed only twice a week... the pots were in a tray, so they would sit in the solution for up to 36 hours before the tray was dry. Then maybe another 36 hours for the medium to become dry enough to need another feed.

If you know the week by week ec/ppm levels to give your plants (although this isn't set in stone and you still need to use your common sense to determine exact ratios) then you will never need to flush them till right at the end.

I'm not sure about the loss to the fan leaves, this will happen if the plants are too cramped, and the leaves do not have access to light.

Mine were killed by thrips... but they still managed to survive. I cut them all off on the last day or two anyway.
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
whats up skunk? My question is...how are the roots for hydro and soil different? If you let soil get root bound and they grow fine, then if you had a way to contain roots in a hydro system...would they grow as well? Like a smaller reservour maybe...
disclaimer: I have been reading this thread on and off since i have been at RIU, so if this question has been axed nevermind.

I think you're meaning DWC? I'm a coco coir grower which is classed as hydro too, although to my mind it is the perfect balance between the two. Although I have grown in DWC too, and have thought about a way to do this same thing. It could work... but would be time consuming (at least for me) to put together. There's also NFT.

Many of these systems have already been designed, but with the SOG grower in mind. It is a simple matter to design a system, section off the roots and just veg' the plants for longer. You must bear in mind also that if the plants are too close together then they will lose out on weight relative to the veg' time. I think there's an equation in here somewhere... just need to figure it out.
 

bongspit

New Member
I think you're meaning DWC? I'm a coco coir grower which is classed as hydro too, although to my mind it is the perfect balance between the two. Although I have grown in DWC too, and have thought about a way to do this same thing. It could work... but would be time consuming (at least for me) to put together. There's also NFT.

Many of these systems have already been designed, but with the SOG grower in mind. It is a simple matter to design a system, section off the roots and just veg' the plants for longer. You must bear in mind also that if the plants are too close together then they will lose out on weight relative to the veg' time. I think there's an equation in here somewhere... just need to figure it out.
My reservour is 18 gallons for 2 plants, could I get the same results using say, 8 gallons for 2 plants. Right now at 38 days of flowering my roots look to be same size as the plant.
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
My reservour is 18 gallons for 2 plants, could I get the same results using say, 8 gallons for 2 plants. Right now at 38 days of flowering my roots look to be same size as the plant.
18 gallons for 2 plants is a lot of space. What's that in litres? Around 90?

I once grew DWC in a 90litre fish tank. I put in 3 clone plants and gave a 14 day veg'. By the end of harvest, only half the tank was full of roots.

From this, you must draw your own conclusions.

Veg time is more relative to eventual yield than the size of your container. You must also take into account space between plants. As certain strains will have a tendency to heavy side branching that are within range of the light. There are a lot of factors that must be considered.
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
whats up skunk? My question is...how are the roots for hydro and soil different? quote]

Soil roots are thicker because they have a denser medium to push through. Which will also slow down the efforts the plant has for growth.

To my mind the Plant comes first... and could even evolve to live without roots if the conditions/environment were right.
 

SmokerE

Well-Known Member
To my mind the Plant comes first... and could even evolve to live without roots if the conditions/environment were right.

Then it wouldn't be the same plant.

It appears you are speaking about backwards evolution. Moss, fungi, are species of plants without a defined root system found in early fossil records. The plant "did" come first.
 

Evil Buddies

Ganja King
OK, just wondered... some guy I was speaking to reckons I'm giving my plants too much. I asked him "why, how much do they need then?"

He couldn't answer me.:peace::mrgreen::blsmoke:
I say u know ur plants and how much they like to be fed. My plants branches tend to droop when they need water. 2 hrs after i water them the branches erect. Why do people want tell u what is right or wrong instead of asking how r ur plants and are they responding well to the feed that ur giving them. Im only on my second grow and im learning everyday. So keep up the good work and interesting threads. I may not contribute much but im reading.
 

hugetom80s

Well-Known Member
I apologize if this has already been said, I haven't taken the time to read through all 46 pages of the thread.

It seems that the basic theory is that roots "exist only to take in nutrients for the plant", right?

That's partly true. But that's not remotely the only thing they do. The roots are an important storehouse for the energy created by the leaves (all the cells in a plant store energy in their vacuoles, but a huge portion can be stored specifically in the roots.) This is why growers traditionally focus on generating large root masses - this energy is tapped into during flowering/fruiting to really produce massive results.

The roots also produce the very important hormone, auxin.


I can't imagine how the effort to reduce or limit root mass would be beneficial. If you've got poor quality root mass (weak or dead roots), then getting rid of that with an enzyme treatment would be beneficial, but otherwise you're hurting potential yield.

You can certainly bring a plant through to the end of its lifecycle without a lot of roots, but you're not going to get as much yield from the plant as you would with a larger root mass.

Think about it: how many pro-athletes train strictly with IV-nutrition, bypassing their body's natural digestion system, simply because it's more "efficient"?

If you can boost a plant with foliar feeding, and hydroponics is efficient enough to support the same size plant with a smaller root mass (both of which we know to be true), wouldn't the optimal results come from maximizing everything in balance?


Plants aren't simple structures. Science describes the flowering process as one of the most complicated biochemical processes in nature and they've evolved over a vast amount of time to this form. To properly care for plants we have to not only pay attention to their individual needs, but the balance of those needs. If you increase CO2, you need to make sure you're providing enough light - else you're wasting the extra CO2 because the plant doesn't have the power to use it.


Now I admit I could be wrong. I haven't tested any of this specifically.

But the science just doesn't back up the theory. What we know to be true about plants says they use their roots for much, much more than simple nutrient uptake. The size of the root mass directly impacts the size and quality of the harvest in more ways than just its ability to take in nutrients. The stored energy (starches) are invaluable. That's why the plants store energy in the roots: they're saving up for the leaner months in the fall when they know they're going to be working extra hard to ensure they can reproduce and pass their genes on to the next generation.

Like the salmon in the ocean, storing energy as fat for the long, arduous swim upstream to mate and die - plants store up that energy in their roots so they can go huge on flowering and reproduction.


Anyway, that's the way I understand it. Plants may be able to survive without a lot of roots, but they need a large, healthy root mass to really thrive.
 
Top