Most breeders are a rip off.

|B3RNY|

Well-Known Member
As, I'm sure, many have noticed, most cannabis breeders offer very little information on the strains they sell but 9 times out of 10 they will at least tell you the genetics. That's good to know but when they say blueberry X skunk, that does not always mean it was a blueberry mother pollinated by a male skunk. It usually just means that the strain came from those 'breeds' but has been crossed, back-crossed or re-back-crossed, etc. Which is all fine, but go to any seed bank and you will see many breeders selling the same strains, only they list different lineages for them. I guess this would only concern you if you were looking for the "real deal" but it really bothers me, if different strains are used to create a new hybrid then it should have a new name as well, to limit confusion. For instance, most people agree that the renowned "White Widow" was originally bred by Shanitbaba (Greenhouse Seeds, Mr. Nice Seeds), including the genetics from a South Indian hybrid and a Brazilian Sativa. White Widow was almost instantly a legendary strain around the world, winning the 1995 Cannabis Cup. Soon after, many breeders released their version of the Widow: in 1996, Nirvana and Dutch Passion seed companies both purchased a pack of White Widow seeds from Shantibaba and then released their own versions within 1 year. These would have the same 'bloodline' as the original White Widow (as long as they didn't breed it with something else), but (assuming White Widow is an f1) these would be lower-quality, F2 seeds. On the other hand, we have breeders like Dinafem (who are GREAT breeders nonetheless) who sell a version of White Widow with the genetics listed as: Haze X Skunk X Northern Lights, I actually really like Dinafem "White Widow" but couldn't they have at least named it something else? Dinafem sells a strain called "Super Silver" which also has listed genetics of: Haze X Skunk X Northern Lights but here they were courteous enough to change the name just a little bit. There are 100's of cases like this, where breeders try to make more money from the glory/work of another breeder.
There's also many breeders who are simply buying packs of seeds form other breeders (as mentioned before) and then breeding them to sell as their own variety. This just gives people the impression that they're getting the same thing when they're really getting a pack of seeds they could of very well bred themselves.

I have been wanting to make a cross of Blueberry Gum and SSSDH (Super Silver Sour Diesel Haze.) Of course a cross isn't considered a strain until it's been tried/tested but I always like to give my crosses a unique name, that's what made me think of rip-off breeders who are out there to make $ off others' work. I know Blue Dream has been quite popular lately and it's a cross of Blueberry and Haze, but it wouldn't be very cool of me to call my cross Blue Dream just because it has a little Blueberry and Haze in it because they will be a completely different line considering my cross would also include Diesel as well as Bubblegum (of course, I'm not a seller either though.) I don't breed seeds for sale or anything so it's not even important what I call my crosses but even if I did, I'd want to start with some good landraces and breed them selectively, back-crossing/inbreeding and such to isolate good traits, then a strain would be worthy of it's own name. I just wish that the majority of the breeders at the seed banks felt the same way. In a perfect world, breeders would breed their own lines, use their own names and worry about quality rather than whatever the most popular name may be at the time.

I'll just call my cross, assuming it'll be good enough to remain as a keeper, Blue Nightmare, then if I were a commercial breeder at least it wouldn't cause any confusion.
 

Laney

Well-Known Member
I'm going to breed some next year known strains plus cross some of my own bagseed lines. Have my names all picked out :)
 

hazey grapes

Well-Known Member
i don't know if i'd quite use the term "ripoff". sure, some breeders have better gear than others, but other than getting totally useless burmese from vancouver island as well as slow starting mutant super lemon haze in a GHS freebie that other strains matched and faster at that, almost every strain that i've tried that was supposed to get me high did.

the best thing to do is just look for breeders with reps for better quality control and/or honest product descriptions. mandala tells it like it is with his gear. TGA totally lived up to his rep with my current favorite strain jack's cleaner 2 and all 3 DNA strains i've tried have been clearly superior in total quality with their sweet haze being no worse than my second favorite.

breeders that suck will get rants and people will learn to avoid them.

i do think that there's is SOME degree of shadiness though like breeders that call their shit amnesia haze without using any strains in real amnesia and haze in general has no meaning as it's borrowed way too much in strains that aren't actual haze crosses.

i feel pretty safe with sannies' jack f7 on my to do list. when EVERYONE raves about a breeder, they're a safe bet. the same goes for rants... i haven't heard anything more favorable than "his gear's getting better" regarding KC brains where there used to be seriously pissed off rants about 0% viability years ago.

best thing to do is find strains that sound the most interesting to you, then looking for reports on them or at least the breeder unless you're in the mood to gamble.

as to white widow, at least SOME of that comes from a cutting another breeder stole off a widow plant at a cannabis cup. THAT is pretty schwaggy to do when you can't even buy seeds from your competitors honestly.

OK, you were talking more about naming than breeding. yeah, i totally agree with on that count. people steal names for the brand name recognition which DOES impact sales. i was always reluctant to try TGA precisely because he names his own crosses and his strains aren't exactly household names like white widow.

making your own names up and listing pedigrees should be the industry standard. i could see lazier breeders not wanting their gear to have it's own name so they can hide in the shadows of better gear.

mosca has a nice C99 cross they've at least added a BX too just as sannies calls his jack f7. if you have the chops and put the work into your gear to get top quality, you shouldn't have anything to hide.
 

|B3RNY|

Well-Known Member
I'm with you, I come up with crazy ideas for strains all of the time and even name 'em.. I haven't created anything too original yet though, hahaha.

I take that back-not most are a rip off, many of them are legit badasses... but the ones that are shay- are REALLY shady. Like black and white, the new Humboldt Seed Organisation seems VERY shady. Check out their Blueberry X White Widow: http://humboldtseeds.co.uk/bww.html then check out dinafem blue widow..not to hard to see since they have the same genetics, but then look at the whole 5 strains they have listed; not a single one of those strains are listed for sale ....Also, in the beginning I thought the were a "collective" group of "breeders in southern california, as they say on the 'Tude.. their site says they are base din the United Kingdom (lol, a far cry from Humboldt, CA.) http://humboldtseeds.co.uk/about.html. You just have to be careful and do some research before you mess with new breeders/breeders without established reputations. Many of them are breeding F2 hybrids they get from ordering higher quality seeds from other breeders, that's nothing you couldn't do at home, quite simply. Anything being sold should get you high, if it doesn't then you shouldn't be buying it. I question new or generic-looking breeders such as Black Skull Seeds, Humboldt Seed Organisation, etc. I'm not just picking on the more affordable breeders, I've found stuff I like in G13 packs, Nirvana packs, etc. but I like my higher quality stuff better-not always, but most of the time.
 

hazey grapes

Well-Known Member
Anything being sold should get you high, if it doesn't then you shouldn't be buying it.
almost as many people that like getting high like getting stoned and a small minority of something like 15% actually ONLY like getting stoned. i'll never understand it myself as i'm all about getting high myself as i was spoiled by blazing some crazy potent columbian gold after work the first time i REALLY blazed after taking useless hits on a cousin's clogged bowl once before.

i don't know how shady the breeders you named are, but there are some SUPER sketchy ones out there repackaging nirvana $25 strains for $50 and even freakin' $75 and implying they're "originals". im sure there are some less than diligent buyers that don't research breeders and banks enough to see that the gougers' lines contain the exact same strains as nirvana. at least ONE of those banks even got a "trusted" rating in grasscity's sticky on the subject.

i dunno, charging 2, even 3 times what a strain's fair market value is is sketchy to me. these days alot of people seem to think nirvana's gear isn't even worth the bargain basement price. i'd be inclined to agree when you can buy a single female seed of comparable quality for as little as $7 and DNA's $11 sweet haze fem was one of the best buds i've ever smoked in my life embarrassing several other fruity hazes, thais and hacks with better flavor, a trippier high, and superglue sticky buds.
 

MyCo JoRdAn

Member
Yeah, I'm learning to avoid these gimmicks and marketing ploys set by a lot of breeders now. It seems nowadays more work goes into the marketing than the breeding and selective process itself. There are a few great breeders out there amongst the dogpile of shifty ones just trying to make a buck, just do a little research and it is surprisingly evident. I just wish Sannie hadn't changed his shipping method to the US!
 

Laney

Well-Known Member
How did he used to pack?

I just got my order from Sannie's and it was well-packed and stealthy; freebies. I like the method he used of packing with craft supplies. Fit my MO perfectly :cool:
 

MetalBox

Member
I am gettng very much into breeding and would like to add something. Yes I agree there needs to be some kind of standardization so Blue dream in California is the same Blue Dream in New York, but genetics are a funny thing. You can take the exact same Blueberry and Haze parents breed them together and unless they have been stabilized for several generations (which usually reduces "hybrid vigor") you'll get tons of different types all different from eachother from all the different combos of recessive and dominant traits. They will all have the same parents as blue dream but wont nessecarily be the same as Blue Dream. My brother has the same parents, yet he and I look and behave entirely different. Now on the other end if your trying to achieve your own version of the strain it doesnt really matter what the parents are as long as all the right traits end up in the offspring. All the strains we have today come from maybe a dozen or two orginal strains, all the genetic traits to make blue dream, kush, or anything all exist spread out over many many strains and if you selected the same combination of traits that are expressed in Blue dream or kush but used different plants to get to the same set of traits I dont see anything wrong with that. Sure there might be some reccessive traits locked in there that kush doesnt normally have that could show up if you breed your version, but that version itself will be expressing most of the same traits as the kush you were trying to replicate. Its like baking cookies, there are literally a million different ways to make chocolate chip cookies, and some ways are better than others, but if they all fit in with the traits we require chocolate chip cookies to have nobody can say they aren't chocolate chip cookies, even if they didnt follow the original recipe. I like that every company has their own version of things, I just think that instead of just calling it White Widow, I like to keep the breeders name attached to it, and call it "Greenhouse seeds White Widow" just like when you go to the grocery store you can buy Chocolate chips ahoy! by Nabisco or Chips Deluxe by Keebler, they are both essentially the same thing but made by different companies, and we know for sure the are not the same thing as an oreo. Anyways thats just the way I see it, I dont thing breeders are a rip off, I think they are the only reason that there is any standardization of strains these days, I remember back in the day, every time I got "sour diesel" was completely different than the last time, and now days things seem more stable and one guys SD is at least very similar to the next guys. Hows the saying go again? If it walks like a duck, it talks like a duck then its a goddamn duck...
 

HotShot7414

Well-Known Member
As, I'm sure, many have noticed, most cannabis breeders offer very little information on the strains they sell but 9 times out of 10 they will at least tell you the genetics. That's good to know but when they say blueberry X skunk, that does not always mean it was a blueberry mother pollinated by a male skunk. It usually just means that the strain came from those 'breeds' but has been crossed, back-crossed or re-back-crossed, etc. Which is all fine, but go to any seed bank and you will see many breeders selling the same strains, only they list different lineages for them. I guess this would only concern you if you were looking for the "real deal" but it really bothers me, if different strains are used to create a new hybrid then it should have a new name as well, to limit confusion. For instance, most people agree that the renowned "White Widow" was originally bred by Shanitbaba (Greenhouse Seeds, Mr. Nice Seeds), including the genetics from a South Indian hybrid and a Brazilian Sativa. White Widow was almost instantly a legendary strain around the world, winning the 1995 Cannabis Cup. Soon after, many breeders released their version of the Widow: in 1996, Nirvana and Dutch Passion seed companies both purchased a pack of White Widow seeds from Shantibaba and then released their own versions within 1 year. These would have the same 'bloodline' as the original White Widow (as long as they didn't breed it with something else), but (assuming White Widow is an f1) these would be lower-quality, F2 seeds. On the other hand, we have breeders like Dinafem (who are GREAT breeders nonetheless) who sell a version of White Widow with the genetics listed as: Haze X Skunk X Northern Lights, I actually really like Dinafem "White Widow" but couldn't they have at least named it something else? Dinafem sells a strain called "Super Silver" which also has listed genetics of: Haze X Skunk X Northern Lights but here they were courteous enough to change the name just a little bit. There are 100's of cases like this, where breeders try to make more money from the glory/work of another breeder.
There's also many breeders who are simply buying packs of seeds form other breeders (as mentioned before) and then breeding them to sell as their own variety. This just gives people the impression that they're getting the same thing when they're really getting a pack of seeds they could of very well bred themselves.

I have been wanting to make a cross of Blueberry Gum and SSSDH (Super Silver Sour Diesel Haze.) Of course a cross isn't considered a strain until it's been tried/tested but I always like to give my crosses a unique name, that's what made me think of rip-off breeders who are out there to make $ off others' work. I know Blue Dream has been quite popular lately and it's a cross of Blueberry and Haze, but it wouldn't be very cool of me to call my cross Blue Dream just because it has a little Blueberry and Haze in it because they will be a completely different line considering my cross would also include Diesel as well as Bubblegum (of course, I'm not a seller either though.) I don't breed seeds for sale or anything so it's not even important what I call my crosses but even if I did, I'd want to start with some good landraces and breed them selectively, back-crossing/inbreeding and such to isolate good traits, then a strain would be worthy of it's own name. I just wish that the majority of the breeders at the seed banks felt the same way. In a perfect world, breeders would breed their own lines, use their own names and worry about quality rather than whatever the most popular name may be at the time.

I'll just call my cross, assuming it'll be good enough to remain as a keeper, Blue Nightmare, then if I were a commercial breeder at least it wouldn't cause any confusion.
This is why i decided to breed my bag seeds strains and my og plants.I noticed this a while back but one company i do trust is Nirvana and though all their strains aren't the best they do have some good ones.
 

HotShot7414

Well-Known Member
How did he used to pack?

I just got my order from Sannie's and it was well-packed and stealthy; freebies. I like the method he used of packing with craft supplies. Fit my MO perfectly :cool:
You shouldn't tell how stealth shipping is shipped on a public forum.This is how people get their packages intercepted at customs and will make the particular seed have to change their methods again.Nothing against you personally it's just kind of a rule of what not to do.:dunce:
 

Laney

Well-Known Member
I beg to differ. There are thousands of craft items it can be stored with. Everyone knows how these guys ship. Stop trolling me.
 

HotShot7414

Well-Known Member
I beg to differ. There are thousands of craft items it can be stored with. Everyone knows how these guys ship. Stop trolling me.
No one is trolling on you and i didn't know how they shipped and im pretty sure a lot of people would agree with me.That like me telling the world Nirvana ships seeds inside of a ****** and it's made of cotton and 100% hemp.It only takes 1 google search to find this post.
 

HeartlandHank

Well-Known Member
I thought this was going to be a thread about the prices many breeders charge.

Obviously, we see the price, and we can pass if we want. But, the difference between 3 seeds for $200 and 20 seeds for $35 has been very little, in my experience.

The guys who are doing their own distribution have a little advantage though, i'll admit. Beanho, Sannies, PSBC... great prices and selling their own seeds. The quality is no less than the reputable breeders selling packs for 100+.
 

MetalBox

Member
You know who I think are the biggest rip-offs in the industry is the goddamn clubs and dispensaries... They are worse than any street dealer I have ever met. They are paying growers lower rates than ever, yet 1/8th usually still range $45-$65 because they think they derserve to earn more than the guy who grew it for 3 months when all they have to do is keep in their store for a few days. What they really need is a farmers market where people can buy direct from grower and still be safe, becuase right now both growers and customers are getting shafted. Growers could sell themselves and get the same or more than dispensaries pay, and customers would be buying stuff for cheaper than ever. The only one who loses are the middlemen who do essentially nothing but profit off the hard work of others.
 

MyCo JoRdAn

Member
How did he used to pack?

I just got my order from Sannie's and it was well-packed and stealthy; freebies. I like the method he used of packing with craft supplies. Fit my MO perfectly :cool:
I never had a problem with his stealthiness, although I did have two orders seized by customs last year in which he quickly reshipped off my word alone. My problem is now he only ships to US by track and trace, and signing for seeds is a no no for me. He is the truth though.
 

HeartlandHank

Well-Known Member
I never had a problem with his stealthiness, although I did have two orders seized by customs last year in which he quickly reshipped off my word alone. My problem is now he only ships to US by track and trace, and signing for seeds is a no no for me. He is the truth though.
My order from him (to US) did not require signing. When ordering, it said i would have to. but i didnt...? maybe my mail person is just laid back like that.
 

Sencha

Active Member
Good thread. Great read.

I totally agree with the expensive vs. cheap comment. I wish I still had one of my first Nirvana Bubbleicious. It's still in my top 3 after 3 years of growing. Large liter sized buds, super resinous, and made my mouth water with the smell of bubblegum. Leaves even changed every color of the rainbow toward the end. :wall:
 

HeartlandHank

Well-Known Member
You know who I think are the biggest rip-offs in the industry is the goddamn clubs and dispensaries... They are worse than any street dealer I have ever met. They are paying growers lower rates than ever, yet 1/8th usually still range $45-$65 because they think they derserve to earn more than the guy who grew it for 3 months when all they have to do is keep in their store for a few days. What they really need is a farmers market where people can buy direct from grower and still be safe, becuase right now both growers and customers are getting shafted. Growers could sell themselves and get the same or more than dispensaries pay, and customers would be buying stuff for cheaper than ever. The only one who loses are the middlemen who do essentially nothing but profit off the hard work of others.
Yeah, not much of a fan of dispensaries. BUT... With the overhead and risk of putting themselves out there with a storefront... i don't blame them for charging that much, really. The fact that they pay so little to growers yet growers line up to sell says more about the growers selling to the dispensaries than the dispensaries. Growers shouldn't be giving up the good so easily at such low prices. Most growers are not exactly biz types. Most are not willing to hold out for more $ either.

I mean, it's retail. You buy as low as you can and sell as high as you can. Retail is not a craft. It's a business. Medical MJ is 95% bullshit, at best. Not because MJ does not have the potential, but because that is not why 95%+ people are buying it.

Not to mention, the States are not exactly known for putting profits aside when peoples medical needs are involved.
 
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