ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
I said I was Pushing 50
You made me think though
My mom is getting old
Never really thought about it
She is retiring next month
oh yeah and thanks I'm going to call her in couple hours
you have to pay $13.50 to vote in pennsylvania
- Thread starter UncleBuck
- Start date
You made me think though
My mom is getting old
Never really thought about it
She is retiring next month
oh yeah and thanks I'm going to call her in couple hours
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
sooooooo
do any of the small government conservatives want to tell us why we must pay money to the government in order to be eligible to vote?
do any of the anti-tax tea partiers want to tell us why we should have to pay money to the government in order to be eligible to vote?
do any of the small government conservatives want to tell us why we must pay money to the government in order to be eligible to vote?
do any of the anti-tax tea partiers want to tell us why we should have to pay money to the government in order to be eligible to vote?
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
It's irrelevant
As long as the rights violations are against people Republicans do not like
It is Ok
they can complain about the injustice in a couple decades when the laws they enact affect them like
-drug laws
-gun control
-abortion
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
You don't need to pay to vote, you need to pay for an ID (like a driving license, passport, etc) because you need to prove who you are to prove eligibility to vote.
If I fly over in November can I vote as you? Probably could if I'd your SS Number...Id write in your hero Turtle Lord for you btw
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
You don't need to pay to vote, you need to pay for an ID (like a driving license, passport, etc) because you need to prove who you are to prove eligibility to vote.
If I fly over in November can I vote as you? Probably could if I'd your SS Number...Id write in your hero Turtle Lord for you btw
Try it and see
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
What exactly would happen? I don't get asked for ID and I vote as any of you, might have to hide the accent but that's it.
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
You get asked what address you live at
then you get asked your name
then you are asked to Sign in the registration book
Grandpapy
Well-Known Member
And what will be your excuse when you are 90 and are required to have at least a collage education?
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
Why should she care up until now?
She lived her whole life without needing to change her birth certificate
she got married
had kids
bought houses, cars
voted
social security number
bank accounts
worked
got drivers licenses
But now the republicans say she needs a ID to prove who she is and that she is a citizen
even though she was born here and has lived here for 90 years
Your problem is you are OK with violating peoples rights as long as they dont share your ideological (and sometimes racist) views
YOUR people would probably come up with a new requirement
asking for a Urine test before voting
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
*college
I already have a bachelor's degree.
The discussion is about people having to show ID to prove who they are to vote. You know, so felons, illegal immigrants, the dead and other groups are not used to diminish the vote of the law abiding citizens of America. I really dont see the huge problem here. If someone can show they are so destitute that they cannot afford the 13.50 then they should be allowed to get an ID for free.
Problem solved. Voter fraud diminished. Move along...
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
my people? I dont have people. I am an independent libertarian. The Democrats just happen to be much further left than the Republicans.
I believe in more freedoms, not less freedoms. I am simply asking that someone show an ID to prove who they are. Your grandmother's birth certificate was wrong. She knew it was wrong and did nothing about it. You are siting a 1 in 1 million case and the evidence clearly shows it was your grandmother that was negligent. It didnt matter right up to the point she needed an ID. And now after 50+ years of ignoring the problem it has actually become a problem. That is not my fault and does not constitute the basis of having NOBODY show ANY ID of ANY KIND to vote.
If there was one sign that voter fraud was being committed in a way that biased you, you would be screaming from the rooftops for reform. But, it seems that criminal voter fraud is 99% democratic so since it suits you, you want to look the other way. Your partisanship is showing.
I want EVERYONE to show id because it is fair, logical and simply common sense to prove who you are to do something as important as voting in this country.
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
Wilola Lee, 59, Philadelphia Ms. Lee is an African-American woman born in rural Wilkerson County, Georgia. She was raised by her grandmother, who moved her to Philadelphia in 1957, where she has lived ever since. Ms. Lee finished the eleventh grade, married, and raised two children, one of whom is a former school principal and now works for the Pennsylvania state government. Ms. Lee worked for the Philadelphia Public Schools for many years, including work with special needs children. Her husband passed away six years ago. Ms. Lee has been voting for decades and worked as a poll worker in the city of Philadelphia. She has been trying for nearly ten years to get a birth certificate that she will need to get a photo ID to vote, but the state of Georgia has told her they have no record of her birth. Ms. Lee does not have and has been unable to obtain photo identification required by Pennsylvania's Photo ID Law, and thus after voting in nearly every election for more than 30 years, she will be unable to do so in November.
Grover Freeland, 72, Philadelphia Mr. Freeland is an African-American man born in Buffalo, NY. He is a U.S. Army Veteran who was drafted in 1964 and served two years stateside before being honorably discharged. He thereafter graduated with a Bachelor of Arts and a Masters degree from Philadelphia's University of the Arts. Mr. Freeland worked many jobs over the years, including in his own photography businesses, until 2004, when he retired. He is formerly married and has five children. He believes that if a person is good enough to put his life on the line in the army then he should be able to vote. Mr. Freeland has not had a drivers' license since the 1980's. His only photo ID card is what is known as a "veterans card," which is issued by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. While it contains encoded information on sensitive matters, like his medical records, the card is not recognized as valid by Pennsylvania's voter photo ID Law. Mr. Freeland has tried unsuccessfully to retrieve his birth certificate, which he will need to get a photo ID acceptable to vote, from the state of New York. Consequently, come November this veteran of the U.S. Armed Services will be unable to show the requisite identification and will not be able to vote.
| |
| Gloria Cuttino |
Nadine Marsh, 84, Beaver County Ms. Marsh is a Caucasian woman who was born in suburban Pittsburgh in 1928. She was the second oldest of ten children and her father worked for Bethlehem Steel. She married her high school sweetheart and then devoted herself to raising three children. Ms. Marsh never drove a car and thus has never had a driver's license. She and other family members have over the years tried to get her birth certificate that she will need to get a photo ID from Pennsylvania. They have gone in person to the Pittsburgh office of the Division of Vital Records, where they have obtained other family members' birth certificates, but have been told that a birth certificate does not exist for Ms. Marsh. Without an identification considered acceptable under Pennsylvania's voter photo ID Law, or the ability to obtain one, Ms. Marsh will be prevented from voting in November.
Dorothy Barksdale, 86, Philadelphia Ms. Barksdale is an African-American woman born at home by a midwife in rural Halifax County, Virginia in 1926. She cleaned homes for many years to help raise two children, both of whom are now deceased. After Congress passed the Voting Rights Act of 1965, Ms. Barksdale worked as a poll official in Philadelphia. She has not missed voting in a single election since at least 2001. But Ms. Barksdale has no photo ID acceptable under the photo ID Law. She has never driven and thus has not needed a driver's license. She and her niece have tried for three years to obtain a birth certificate from the state of Virginia, which now has advised them that they have no birth record.
Bea Bookler, 93, Chester County Ms. Bookler is a Caucasian woman born in Philadelphia in 1918. Graduating from Philadelphia's Overbrook High School at the height of the Depression, Ms. Bookler was forced to get a job to earn money and could not go to college. She worked as a secretary until she married a World War II veteran in 1945. She raised two children and now also has two grandchildren. Ms. Bookler was widowed in 2006 and now lives in an assisted living facility in Devon, Chester County. Ms. Bookler has voted regularly since casting her first ballot for Franklin Roosevelt in 1940. She has now grown frail with age. Going to the polls to vote twice a year is difficult for Ms. Bookler, but it is so important to her that these are two of only a handful of excursions away from her assisted-living facility that she has mustered the energy to take in recent years. Ms. Bookler does not presently have a photo ID acceptable under Pennsylvania's photo ID law. While she has the official documents necessary to get a valid ID from PennDOT, to actually get that ID she must go to the nearest PennDOT Driver's License Center about ten miles from her home. Doing so would require her to arrange transportation and would be an enormous physical hardship. Unfortunately, because she neither has nor can get an ID acceptable under Pennsylvania's voter photo ID law, she will not be able to vote in November, an election she believes may be her last.
Joyce Block, 89, Bucks County Ms. Block is a Caucasian woman born in Brooklyn, NY, in 1922. She became a professional chorus girl at age sixteen, and played, among many other roles, in the original Broadway cast of Rogers and Hammerstein's Oklahoma. At age twenty-one she married Carl Block, a lifelong musician who played in "Big Bands," and together they opened and ran several candy and ice-cream stores and raised six children while living in New York, New Jersey and, since 1973, in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Now a widow, Ms. Block's six children have given her 14 grandchildren and 11 great grandchildren. Ms. Block has voted in nearly every election since 1944, and has not missed a vote in at least the past ten years. She instilled a civic-mindedness in her children, all of whom are politically active, and voting is extremely important to the entire family. Ms. Block has never driven or had a PennDOT-issued identification. PennDOT officials advised her that she could not get a photo ID card because her birth certificate and Social Security card were in her maiden name while her voter registration was in her married name, and the mismatch precluded issuance of an ID. Ms. Block's only documentation of marriage, which she brought with her, is a marriage certificate written in Hebrew. The DMV clerks could not understand the certificate and refused to accept it as proof of her name change. Unlike many other Pennsylvania voters who do not have and cannot obtain voter ID, Ms. Block is fortunate to have political connections. Her family reached out to to the office of her state senator for assistance. His office worked with PennDOT to obtain a temporary voter ID for Ms. Block.
Henrietta Kay Dickerson, 75 Pittsburgh Ms. Dickerson is an African-American woman born in Chatham, Louisiana, in 1936. Her mother brought her to Pittsburgh when she was an infant. Ms. Dickerson has been a lifelong resident of the city's Hill District. She has an adult son and two grandsons. Ms. Dickerson worked for more than forty years as a nurse at Pittsburgh's Magee Women's Hospital. Ms. Dickerson has been voting her entire adult life, missing elections only when she has been very sick. She has not missed voting in an election for more than a decade. Ms. Dickerson had a PennDOT-issued non-driver photo ID, but it expired on May 31, 2011. Not needing the ID for any other reason, she did not renew it. After hearing about the new voter photo ID law, Ms. Dickerson realized she would need to renew her PennDOT ID. She spent several hours gathering necessary documents for a trip to a PennDOT Driver's License Center in downtown Pittsburgh on April 18, 2012. Despite the state's promise that people could get photo ID cards free for voting purposes, the personnel at the DMV refused to give Ms. Dickerson a free card, insisting that she pay $13.50, which she did. They told her that she could not get a free ID because her old one had not been expired for more than a year, even though it would not be valid on election day in November. Since Ms. Dickerson does not need the ID for any reason but to vote, the fee is tantamount to a poll tax.
Devra Mirel ("Asher") Schor, 22, Pittsburgh Mr. Schor is a transgender man (female to male) registered voter in Pennsylvania who was born and raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He received a Bachelor of Arts degree in 2011 from Sarah Lawrence College in New York. He works as a paralegal for a public interest law firm that provides civil rights assistance to Pennsylvania prisoners. Assigned a female sex at birth, Mr. Schor began medical transition with a bi-lateral mastectomy in December 2010. He has been undergoing hormone therapy (testosterone) since October 2011. He does not currently plan to have more surgery, but the hormone therapy will continue indefinitely. Mr. Schor expects to formally change his name and gender identity after the transitioning process is further along, which will not be before the November election. Mr. Schor has two forms of photo ID acceptable under the new voter photo ID law - a current passport and driver's license - but in both he looks like a woman and is identified as "female." He now looks and presents like a man.Given the stark and obvious difference in appearance and gender designation between Mr. Schor's identification documents and his current appearance, Mr. Schor has a very real and legitimate concern that poll workers will refuse to allow him to vote on election day in November when the person in his ID photos looks so different from the person who comes to vote.
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
In a Pennsylvania court filing, the state says it has never investigated claims of in-person voter fraud and so won't argue that such fraud has occurred in the past. As a result, the state says, it has no evidence that the crime has ever been committed
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
Well thank god Pennsylvania is the golden heart of America where no fraud is ever committed.
I can show you case after case in other states.
If the incompetent government has not noticed, it must not be happening... LOL!
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
voter fraud happens in about 1 in 15 million casesBy my count you are about 291 short for it to be 1 in 1 million... You havent even gotten up to 1 in 10 million yet.
Now, if you are going to try to tell me that voter fraud happens in less than 1 in 1 million cases. Well, I can copy and paste too!
and the fraud perpetrated is
Felons voting
show me otherwise
Produce evidence
you cant
you wont
your a dick
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
So, it is your contention that about 5 people vote fraudulently in the national elections every 4 years?
Are you serious?
*google* voter fraud
When you finish reading the links from the search get back to me and say again with a straight face that it is 1 in 15 million...
KTHXBYE!
Are you serious?
*google* voter fraud
When you finish reading the links from the search get back to me and say again with a straight face that it is 1 in 15 million...
KTHXBYE!
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
[h=1]Policy Brief on the Truth About “Voter Fraud”
Analysis[/h][PDF]
Summary
* Fraud by individual voters is both irrational and extremely rare.
* Many vivid anecdotes of purported voter fraud have been proven false or do not demonstrate fraud.
* Voter fraud is often conflated with other forms of election misconduct.
* Raising the unsubstantiated specter of mass voter fraud suits a particular policy agenda.
* Claims of voter fraud should be carefully tested before they become the basis for action.
Fraud by individual voters is both irrational and extremely rare. Most citizens who take the time to vote offer their legitimate signatures and sworn oaths with the gravitas that this hard-won civic right deserves. Even for the few who view voting merely as a means to an end, however, voter fraud is a singularly foolish way to attempt to win an election. Each act of voter fraud risks five years in prison and a $10,000 fine - but yields at most one incremental vote. The single vote is simply not worth the price.
Because voter fraud is essentially irrational, it is not surprising that no credible evidence suggests a voter fraud epidemic. There is no documented wave or trend of individuals voting multiple times, voting as someone else, or voting despite knowing that they are ineligible. Indeed, evidence from the microscopically scrutinized 2004 gubernatorial election in Washington State actually reveals just the opposite: though voter fraud does happen, it happens approximately 0.0009% of the time. The similarly closely-analyzed 2004 election in Ohio revealed a voter fraud rate of 0.00004%. National Weather Service data shows that Americans are struck and killed by lightning about as often.
Many vivid anecdotes of purported voter fraud have been proven false or do not demonstrate fraud. Although there are a few scattered instances of real voter fraud, many of the vivid anecdotes cited in accounts of voter fraud have been proven false or vastly overstated. In Missouri in 2000, for example, the Secretary of State claimed that 79 voters were registered with addresses at vacant lots, but subsequent investigation revealed that the lots in question actually housed valid and legitimate residences. Similarly, a 1995 investigation into votes allegedly cast in Baltimore by deceased voters and those with disenfranchising felony convictions revealed that the voters in question were both alive and felony-free.
Many of the inaccurate claims result from lists of voters compared to other lists - of deceased individuals, persons with felony convictions, voters in other states, etc. These attempts to match information often yield predictable errors. In Florida in 2000, a list of purged voters later became notorious when it was discovered that the “matching” process captured eligible voters with names similar to - but decidedly different from - the names of persons with felony convictions, sometimes in other states entirely. A 2005 attempt to identify supposed double voters in New Jersey mistakenly accused people with similar names but whose middle names or suffixes were clearly different, such as “J.T. Kearns, Jr.” and “J.T. Kearns, Sr.,” of being the same person. Even when names and birthdates match across lists, that does not mean there was voter fraud. Elementary statistics students are often surprised to learn that it is more likely than not that among just 23 individuals, two will share a birthday. Similar statistics show that for most reasonably common names, it is extremely likely that at least two people with the same name in a state will share the same date of birth. The ostensible “matches” may not represent the same person at all.
Other allegations of fraudulent voting often turn out to be the result of common clerical errors, incomplete information, or faulty assumptions. Most allegations of voter fraud simply evaporate when more rigorous analysis is conducted.
Voter fraud is often conflated with other forms of election misconduct. It is extremely rare for individuals to vote multiple times, vote as someone else, or vote despite knowing that they are ineligible. These rare occurrences, however, are often conflated with other forms of election irregularities or misconduct, under the misleading and overbroad label of “voter fraud.u201D Some of these other irregularities result from honest mistakes by election officials or voters, such20as confusion as to whether a particular person is actually eligible to vote. Some irregularities result from technological glitches, whether sinister or benign: for example, voting machines may record inaccurate tallies. And some involve fraud or intentional misconduct perpetrated by actors other than individual voters: for example, flyers may spread misinformation about the proper locations or procedures for voting; thugs may be dispatched to intimidate voters at the polls; missing ballot boxes may mysteriously reappear. These more common forms of misconduct are simply not addressed by the supposed “anti-fraud” measures generally proposed.
Raising the unsubstantiated specter of mass voter fraud suits a particular policy agenda. Voter fraud is most often invoked as a substantial problem in order to justify particular election policies. Chief among these is the proposal that individuals be required to show photo ID in order to vote - a policy that disenfranchises up to 10% of eligible citizens. But the only misconduct that photo ID addresses is the kind of voter fraud that happens as infrequently as death by lightning. Therefore, it suits those who prefer photo ID as a policy to lump as much misconduct in with “voter fraud” as possible, to create the impression that the problem is far more significant than it actually is. Moreover, to the extent photo ID is suggested as a solution to the perception that voter fraud occurs, it behooves those who prefer photo ID to reinforce the unsubstantiated perception that voter fraud exists.
Claims of voter fraud should be carefully tested before they become the basis for action. Researchers, reporters, public figures, and policymakers confronted with claims of potential fraud should carefully examine these claims before calling for action. Do the claims depend on matching information from one list to another? Is the matching process accurate? Does a match indicate an illegal vote, or is there a more plausible explanation? Is corroborating evidence available? If there actually appears to be a problem, can it be addressed by existing practices, or is a new solution necessary? If so, will the solution proposed - usually either a mass purge or photo identification - really solve the problem? Is the solution sufficiently burdensome that it becomes a greater problem than the problem itself? These basic questions are crucially important to evaluating claims of voter fraud, but are all too often unasked and unanswered.
THE WORK OF THE BRENNAN CENTER
* National. Following the report of the 2005 Commission on Federal Election Reform (the “Carter-Baker Commission"), the Brennan Center and Commissioner Spencer Overton prepared a detailed analysis of claims of voter fraud, in the context of a proposed photo identification requirement.
* Georgia. In October 2005, a Georgia federal court enjoined implementation of a law requiring photo ID. On appeal, the Brennan Center filed an amicus brief, arguing that the threat of impersonation fraud, which the law purported to combat, is extremely rare and could not justify the ID requirement.
* Indiana. In 2006, the Brennan Center filed an amicus brief with the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals, presenting evidence that impersonation fraud is an extremely unlikely and unsubstantiated occurrence. The brief also catalogued practices in other states that effectively curbed election fraud without resorting to restrictive identification requirements.
* New Jersey. In 2005, a list of purported and potential fraudulent votes was delivered to the state Attorney General, with a demand that the voter rolls be purged. Together with a prominent political scientist, the Brennan Center demonstrated the flaws in the matching process used to generate the list, and proved that the vast majority of allegations in fact yielded no reason for concern.
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
Let me explain to you how easy voter fraud is without ID.
Say someone like Deprave NEEDS Ron Paul to win the election.
So, he goes precinct by precinct and registers himself at whatever address he chooses in the precinct. He does this by 3rd party or mail in registration.
Then, come election day he goes to each precinct and says he is *john Doe* living at 123 maple street. The doddering old volunteer looks up the address and low and behold it says that John Doe does indeed live at 123 maple street. Well gosh darn, we have a registered citizen here!!!
Then Deprave goes and votes for Ron Paul in 10, 20, or 100 districts because he is that damn determined to get Ron Paul elected.
Now, unless the state actually physically checks to see if there is actually a john doe living at 123 maple street then they have no way of knowing that any fraud has taken place. And since no ID was required, it was incredibly simple to do.
Now, I think most of us can agree that we dont want Ron Paul to be elected. So, cant we at least try to not be completely idiotic about voter registration and voting?
Say someone like Deprave NEEDS Ron Paul to win the election.
So, he goes precinct by precinct and registers himself at whatever address he chooses in the precinct. He does this by 3rd party or mail in registration.
Then, come election day he goes to each precinct and says he is *john Doe* living at 123 maple street. The doddering old volunteer looks up the address and low and behold it says that John Doe does indeed live at 123 maple street. Well gosh darn, we have a registered citizen here!!!
Then Deprave goes and votes for Ron Paul in 10, 20, or 100 districts because he is that damn determined to get Ron Paul elected.
Now, unless the state actually physically checks to see if there is actually a john doe living at 123 maple street then they have no way of knowing that any fraud has taken place. And since no ID was required, it was incredibly simple to do.
Now, I think most of us can agree that we dont want Ron Paul to be elected. So, cant we at least try to not be completely idiotic about voter registration and voting?