you have to pay $13.50 to vote in pennsylvania
- Thread starter UncleBuck
- Start date
Yes I do, I'm not buying into the one or two instances of voter fraud convictions.
Voter fraud is strawman for the left because it is very hard to investigate, much less prosecute.
Lets instead focus on voter registration fraud and why so many ACORN workers have been convicted of submitting false voter registration forms in Colorado Springs in 2005, Kansas City, Mo., in 2006 and King County, Wash., in 2007.
Let me ask you a couple of simple questions, why are these Acorn workers who get paid by the hour, submitting so many false voter registration forms? Can Americans cast their vote in a presidential election without registering first and isn't it true that voter registration fraud is a prerequisite to voter fraud itself?
Antidisestablishmentarian
Well-Known Member
I quoted you what you have to do in my state. Btw, what would be the cost to get the library? Lost wages, possible bus fare, or gas.
Reality is, you have to spend money to go vote in one way or the other. None of them are considered poll taxes.
canndo
Well-Known Member
You do.
Beenthere, it is a clear situation, it is obvious to most and the Brennan studies confirm (let alone those studies quoted by SCOTUS) that many people will be unable to vote. I presume what you mean to say is that you don't buy into the claimed one or two and you think there are much more.
So - on the one hand you will not believe studies and reports on the obvious - that many do not have ID and many cannot obtain it before November. And on the other you cling to the most ephemeral, unproven, absolute absence of proof conjecture that contrary to all research and decades of history, hundreds of thousands of people are casting illegal votes.
Am I reading your post correctly? If I am Beenthere, then you do indeed prove my hypothisis that the more intelligent the conservative the more he will cling to his belief system in spite of overwhelming evidence that his beliefs are contrary to reality.
Now I would rather focus on the sort of antics that may well alter our election and not turn away but you answered my question directly and are owed answers.
Why are ACORN workers submitting so many false registration forms? - becuase unfortunately, they are piece workers and they get paid by the registration (this may have changed). What they do is unethical and illegal. But it has very little effect on elections.
Can Americans cast votes without registering first? I do not believe they can Beenthere. Is registration fraud a prerequsite to voter fraud? In many instances I believe it is but I see where you are attempting to take this and it doesn't fly. As has been stated, you don't see mickey mouse or donald duck voting and both of them have been registered, perhaps many times.
Now, back to OH and PA. Retired military in PA are now up in arms because their military ID is not considered valid because it is is permanent, that is it need never again be renewed. This is a single example of voter supression that had an unintended consequence. Why do you support retired military being rendered incapable of voting in this election?
canndo
Well-Known Member
The GOP is doing other things to maintain their voting base....
[video=youtube;w9U0nbrbOEA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9U0nbrbOEA&feature=g-u-u[/video]
Funny, except for the fact that those hospitalized folks on machines dont have the proper ID to vote.
BA142
Well-Known Member
Oh I know, but they're not brown so it's okay.
desert dude
Well-Known Member
"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
I am in the process of buying a shotgun. I found one I like for sale in Florida. To buy it I have to endure a ten day waiting period. I have to provide ID to prove who I am. I have to undergo a background check. Total cost is $45.00. Many firearms sellers won't ship to California because CA has an obstacle course of regulations and laws that out of staters can't (or are intimidated into not trying) navigate. My gun can't be shipped to me; it has to be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee who will hold it during the obstacle course.
Is all of this an unconstitutional "infringement"? It certainly seems so to me. Is the constitution sacrosanct only when electing people intent on voiding the constitution? It certainly seems so.
Voter registration fraud is rampant; it certainly was in the 2008 election. Why would anybody assume that actual voting fraud is not similarly rampant? Is citizenship a requirement to vote?
I am in the process of buying a shotgun. I found one I like for sale in Florida. To buy it I have to endure a ten day waiting period. I have to provide ID to prove who I am. I have to undergo a background check. Total cost is $45.00. Many firearms sellers won't ship to California because CA has an obstacle course of regulations and laws that out of staters can't (or are intimidated into not trying) navigate. My gun can't be shipped to me; it has to be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee who will hold it during the obstacle course.
Is all of this an unconstitutional "infringement"? It certainly seems so to me. Is the constitution sacrosanct only when electing people intent on voiding the constitution? It certainly seems so.
Voter registration fraud is rampant; it certainly was in the 2008 election. Why would anybody assume that actual voting fraud is not similarly rampant? Is citizenship a requirement to vote?
canndo
Well-Known Member
Please don't make the same mistake as so many NRA members do, you have taken the 2nd amendment out of context.
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".
Is what it says. It is the only amendment that supposedly explains itself. It would have been far better had it been worded the way you have, but it was not and so leaves doubt as to its true meaning.
Reading as good liberals do, for the most power to the individual, I agree that your having to provide ID to anyone but the seller is in shady constitutional ground, background checks as well are questionable. A waiting period in my opinion is not, as you are not guarnteed promptness as you are for a trial. The cost? I think that would depend upon where the money goes. As far as the weapon not being shipped across state lines - that as well could be justified, especialy in light of what the 2nd amendment really say.
Now, you make a huge jump in saying that if registration fraud is rampant we should simply assume that voter fraud is as well.
It has been explained that registration fraud is not orchestrated in order to alter a particular outcome of an election. Your presumption that voter fraud is rampant is demonstrated false by a number of studies indicating that voter fraud is exceedingly rare. It is not coincidence that each incident of voter ID law has been orchestrated by Republicans, each incident of attempted curtailment of voter rights has at its root, Republicans. Specificly ALEC.
What you wind up doing Desert Dude is taking this to the theoretical, in theory, you are correct, but in practice hundreds of thousands of legitimate voters will not be able to vote and the culprits are invariably Republicans.
I'd be willing to bet that voter fraud is more rampant than law abiding citizens killing law abiding citizens with legally purchased guns!
canndo
Well-Known Member
Beenthere, your "willingness to bet" has no bearing on what is or is not true. In fact, your enthusiasm for wager is noted. Would you like to place a little bet with me that you cannot find legitimate proof that voter fraud represents more than one thousanth of one percent of all votes cast nationaly in a given year?
I see you are avoiding reality here. In point, there is little if any voter fraud, there is no widespread voter fraud and there certainly is strong evidence that the number of disenfranchised legitimate voters dwarfs any number of illegal voters stymied by any voter ID law.
that is the reality and you are either ignoring it or diverting attention from it.
I sure will, as soon as you give me the names of all these poor people that cannot afford and ID, fair enough?
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I would like to know more of these disenfranchised dwarf voters. Were they counted short? cn
canndo
Well-Known Member
Why is that a requirement Beenthere? you said you were willing to bet. I beieve all that should be required is for you to show a reasonable percentage of proven voter fraud in this country and how voter ID would have eliminated that fraud.
I on the other hand need only show you studies and rationale demonstrating that significant numbers of legitimate (short of the requred ID) will be rendered unable to vote in this election. This, btw, is pretty easy to do.
The terms of the bet are simple. If you can show what you are willing to bet is happening, then I will publicly admit that I am wrong.
If you cannot, and I can show what I claim, then you will without further prompting admit that you are wrong and promise to stop making similar arguments in the future.
canndo
Well-Known Member
the class of "little people" has historicly been under counted and underrepresented in this country. airline seats being the exception.
Instead of going through this long rant of yours, why not just admit you have NO PROOF of all these alleged disenfranchised voters who cannot afford an ID?
canndo
Well-Known Member
I never limited my statement to those who "can't afford" ID.
Now, I believe I asked first, and that is the way it is usually done. How about proof of your assertion that there are as many voter fraud cases as you claim.
canndo
Well-Known Member
Based on the Brennan Center’s analysis of the 19 laws and two executive actions that passed in 14 states, it is clear that:
South Carolina is one of the worst offenders already, and they are still implementing the law. Via Chron.com:
- These new laws could make it significantly harder for more than five million eligible voters to cast ballots in 2012.
- The states that have already cut back on voting rights will provide 171 electoral votes in 2012 – 63 percent of the 270 needed to win the presidency.
- Of the 12 likely battleground states, as assessed by an August Los Angeles Times analysis of Gallup polling, five have already cut back on voting rights (and may pass additional restrictive legislation), and two more are currently considering new restrictions.
South Carolina is one of the worst offenders already, and they are still implementing the law. Via Chron.com:
Under the new law, people have to present photographic identification at precinct polling places to cast regular ballots. The data crunching is important because it will be used to reach out to voters to make sure they know about the change, an issue the U.S. Justice Department is concerned about as it reviews the law.
There's enough question about the data that the state on Friday delayed filing responses to the U.S. Justice Department's questions about the new voter ID law, Deputy Attorney General Bryan Stirling said.
"We obviously need to analyze their processes and their methods," Stirling said.
Earlier this week, the Election Commission said nearly 217,000 registered voters in the state lack a state driver's license or photo ID. That already was nearly 40,000 more than the election agency had previously estimated.
Election Commission spokesman Chris Whitmire said data used to match state driver's license and identification card data excluded about 117,000 inactive voters. That figure includes a mix of people who had died, moved, been convicted of crimes that suspend their voting rights or hadn't voted since 2006.
There's enough question about the data that the state on Friday delayed filing responses to the U.S. Justice Department's questions about the new voter ID law, Deputy Attorney General Bryan Stirling said.
"We obviously need to analyze their processes and their methods," Stirling said.
Earlier this week, the Election Commission said nearly 217,000 registered voters in the state lack a state driver's license or photo ID. That already was nearly 40,000 more than the election agency had previously estimated.
Election Commission spokesman Chris Whitmire said data used to match state driver's license and identification card data excluded about 117,000 inactive voters. That figure includes a mix of people who had died, moved, been convicted of crimes that suspend their voting rights or hadn't voted since 2006.
I asserted no such thing, I said I'd be willing to bet.
BTW, ACORN employees are paid by the hour and have no monetary incentive to register more voters!
So you are wrong on that account.
canndo
Well-Known Member
Allegheny County Controller Chelsa Wagner said. “About 10 percent of otherwise eligible Pennsylvanians are disenfranchised by the Voter ID law. That’s not an acceptable number of people to tell that they can’t vote.” Disenfranchised groups, Wagner said, include older residents, students and the poor.