Get a Harvest Every 2 Weeks

[Maccabee]

to simplify say a 400 watt covers 4 sq/ft, and a 1000 wat covers 10 sq/ft. your getting 100 watts per sq/ft in both situations rite? now do your grow and at the end of the grow calculate what you yeilded per sq/ft not, your total yeild. you will yeild much more from the 1000 watt light PER SQ/FT than the 400.

Yes. So? The two still aren't mutually exclusive. That was my point. The question was originally posed as if they were. A 1000 watt light would both allow more area to be farmed, and would light that area at a greater intensity. Which I think is the same thing you're saying.
The 1000 watt can cover more square feet and delivers more yield per square foot (presuming that the distance the 1000 watt light is positioned over the plants in order to cover the larger area still allows its light to arrive at the leaves with a greater intensity than that from the smaller light which might be positioned closer.)

 

[cmak40]

Yes. So? The two still aren't mutually exclusive. That was my point. The question was originally posed as if they were. A 1000 watt light would both allow more area to be farmed, and would light that area at a greater intensity. Which I think is the same thing you're saying.
The 1000 watt can cover more square feet and delivers more yield per square foot (presuming that the distance the 1000 watt light is positioned over the plants in order to cover the larger area still allows its light to arrive at the leaves with a greater intensity than that from the smaller light which might be positioned closer.)

.......you win! good explanation for the guy...
people come here knowing nothing sometimes k! and then there are the people here who are very knowledgable. the KNOWLEDGABLE people are here to EDUCATE the newcomers! you can argue that is untrue but i know what i use FORUMS for and that is to learn when not fully educated on somethin you mite be interested in.
now that being said i think the HELPFUL part of all that gets put aside sometimes in here(riu) and ego takes over, FINE thats cool but at the end of the day CAN WE HELP THE PEOPLE WHO DONT FUCKING KNOW. you said what you said but i answered his question, which you should read again.

SORRY AL but im tired of the makin fun before answering or not answering with any kind of info that matters or is relevent. NEWBS look here for help and its slow to come sometimes.

 

[Maccabee]

What's your problem, cmak? I did answer his actual question. You decided to complicate things by throwing in a vague 'correction' regarding the importance of intensity.

OK, fine. But it's factually wrong to suggest that bigger lights allow larger yields simply because they can provide more efficient or intense lighting per sq. ft. -- they also allow larger yields because they create larger production areas. So far as intensity is concerned, you can in fact use multiple smaller lights with overlapping footprints to create more intense light per sq ft (and so higher yields, in that sense) than you can with a single larger light, as you can get multiple smaller lights closer to the canopy without burning. Efficiency of a single light source in the abstract is not the same thing as yield of a lighting system in the context of a grow. If you really want to get into it.

So now you're complaining that I had the gall to clarify my statement after you added something that was potentially confusing and incomplete; and for extra irony you're exemplifying the very behavior you're whining about.

Kudos, that's very acrobatic if not very perceptive.

OK, I'm done. I'm here to ask questions and help answer them, not pick fights with emo kids.

 

[Azgrow]

just wanna toss the ol 2 censt here...i believe whats trying to be said is that the 1k lights have a deeper canopy penitration..meaning plants grown gigger an more bushy need less training an trimmin cause of the lights penitration...but using multiple smaller lights can get you a better overall top canopy ffot print...good for scrog grows or any grow where light at the tops is more important then full penitration...just my 2cents...peace az

 

[cmak40]

i added a simple explanation that would answer more than the single ? i didnt disregard what you said!!!! i think you actually confused up the statements with your additions cuz i still dont know wtf your talkin about......
how exactly do i exemplify what im TALKING about, i to was a noob on many forums and in many situations and got shit on for not knowing, so i want the noobs to get help thats bad? well my bad then! i didnt argue your point ever!! you can actually put the quote up to prove me wrong if you want but he was under the impression that a bigger light means more plants...its not that simple. i know that you prob do to but, YOU didnt explain it, sorry you dont like my explanation but at least i tried, no one else did(is that the NO HELP in forums i was talkin about) go ahead argue all day and throw up half ass answer posts to get your post count up. i want to learn and help, not get shit on by people with out the perspective to see others views.

as for VAGUE answering "yes" to his question seems a little VAGUE. i dont think you had anything to say til i said something!!!

theres a 100 ways to argue anyones point but its not a simple answer

 

[Maccabee]

Look, I'm not trying to argue with you, but you still don't seem to understand.

It is as much the increased area per light as the increased intensity that gives a 1000 watt light value. 1000 watt lights are very efficient in terms of converting electricity into lumens, which is the lumen rating of the bulb. On paper, they are very intense in lumens.

However, a 1000 watt fixture cannot be placed as close to the plants as, say, a 400W or 600W--although these may not be as efficient, both absolutely, and because you'd have to run two to cover the same area at an equal or greater intensity. Thus, if you're producing more from a 1000W grow it may be simply because you have more plants--they lumens they are being delivered may be less than that of a couple plants close under a 400W. Plain and simple.

Don't believe me? According to J. Cervantes in Marijuana Horticulture: The Indoor/Outdoor Medical Growers Bible (2006), 1000W HPS is 140 Lumens per Watt, and at one foot away is 140K lumens but at 3 feet away is 15.5K lumens. Meanwhile a 600W HPS is 150 LPW, at one foot away it delivers 90K lumens and at 2 feet away 22,500 lumens.

Even though 400W lamps produce fewer lumens per watt than a 1000 watt bulb, when properly set up they actually deliver more usable light toplants. The 600W bulb has the highest LPW and can be placed closer to the canopy of the garden than 1000W or 1100W bulbs. When the 600W bulb is closer to plants, they receive more light.
A 1000W HID emits a lot of light. It also radiates a lot of heat. The bulb must be further from the plants to avoid burning them. In many cases it is more effective to use smaller wattage bulbs. For example, two 400W bulbs emit light from two points. The disadvantage is that two 400W systems cost more than one 1000W system.

So unless you're going to tell me that Cervantes is wrong and is misleading the noobs too, I'm going to keep saying what I'm saying and will keep insisting that the distinction is significant even if you don't quite get it (which I can't quite tell if you do or don't.)

Seriously, I'm done with this now. This kind of squabbling doesn't belong in a thread this awesome.

 

[cmak40]

with a cool tube it can touch the fucking plant k...................
if you were done youd stop arguing your point, i did 2 posts ago. THERE IS MULTIPLE WAYS TO ARGUE YOUR POINT you win. i lose i have jorge book k, the 2002 edition and the 2007 you want a copy? a 1000 covers more area because that MORE INTENSE light can be lifted and stil reach farther with the same intensity as a samller light i know that. you didnt explain that, well you did it just took you 5 posts to do it, good job post count goin up, and up and up............

should put that post up first to answer the question. but it does relegate what i said thanx
REP FOR ME LOL


back to HYDROPONICS PLEASE

 

[Maccabee]

with a cool tube it can touch the fucking plant k...................

Who said anything about cool tubes? The question remains, 'why is a 1000W more productive?' Not, 'why is a 1000W more productive if it's in a cool tube.' That effectively makes it a different light.

if you were done youd stop arguing your point, i did 2 posts ago.

What, pray tell, are you doing now? Making conversation?

THERE IS MULTIPLE WAYS TO ARGUE YOUR POINT...

but facts are facts.

i lose i have jorge book k, the 2002 edition and the 2007 you want a copy?

Then re-read the sections of Chapter 9 subtitled "The Inverse Square Law" and "Lamp Spacing," pages 177 - 181 in my 2006 edition.

Pay particular attention to the last section in "Light Spacing" that begins "The goal is to give plants 10,000 lumens..." and ends "400w lamps...may be more efficient than higher wattage....it also means that several different point sources sustain more even, intense light distribution." That would be the point at which Cervantes lays out what I was saying above.

The person asked if a 1000W yields more because it delivers more intense light, or because it can grow more plants. The answer is both, and that's the answer I gave, but if you have to choose one (as you seem to think we do otherwise it is 'too confusing' or somehow not answering the question) it is in fact the latter--the increased area and so number or size of plants--as other setups can deliver both more lumens per watt and more lumens per square foot.

So, you were in fact wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, or argumentation. It's a fact. And then you yelled at me for misleading the newbie by posting wrong things--when it was you, in actuality, who was doing so. And then failed to perceive the irony. And are now throwing a temper tantrum.

Just stop.

back to HYDROPONICS PLEASE

Yes, please.

 

[stickyicky77]

AL, i have noticed some rust spots on some of my large fan leaves. Do you have any ideas what could be causing them? I check the pH every morning and it is at 6.5 and i lower it to 5.8 the ppm is at 1150 for vegging week 2.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

AL, i have noticed some rust spots on some of my large fan leaves. Do you have any ideas what could be causing them? I check the pH every morning and it is at 6.5 and i lower it to 5.8 the ppm is at 1150 for vegging week 2.

Nothing occurs to me offhand, but then I don't know what your temps & RH have been, what lights you're using, what media, whether you have an O3 gen.. etc etc etc

Your best bet for queries like this is to start a thread in Sick Plants or similar subforum, with pics and a complete description of the op and conditions. There's people a lot better at problem diagnoses than I. All I'll do is go back through the knowns and see what's out of order.

 

[Kuji]

Din't mean to start an argument, but thanks for answering my questions. I still have some things to figure out with lighting, especially what to use for clones and new vegging plants but I understand(or at least think I do) the wattage to yield concept.

It seems the roots are more durable then I thought. The sight of the exposed root system just seems so...exposed, like if anything touches them its gonna get sucked into the biological network of the plant and kill the whole thing from within.

I found an excellent video on youtube(I grow Chronic) that answers alot of my questions. However, this dude vegetates his clones for a whole two months and then puts them in the flowering room. Al, you say take clones directly from the clone box and put them into flowering, how long are they in the clone box for until they're good to flower? Also, for a new grower would you recommend letting clones veg a little and grow more strength before going into flowering?

Thanks.

 

[daddychrisg]

LOL damb this room is gettin bitchy! As far as lights are concern, have you guys looked into running a series of CFL's, maybe 80 or so 27watters, to achieve the desired light source...? Maybe even put them in cool tubes?Hu?

 

[stickyicky77]

LOL damb this room is gettin bitchy! As far as lights are concern, have you guys looked into running a series of CFL's, maybe 80 or so 27watters, to achieve the desired light source...? Maybe even put them in cool tubes?Hu?

What would be the point in putting CFL's in a cool tube?? They do not put out that much heat anyway.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

Din't mean to start an argument, but thanks for answering my questions. I still have some things to figure out with lighting, especially what to use for clones and new vegging plants but I understand(or at least think I do) the wattage to yield concept.

Easy, clones can live under fluoros, mums can get a small HPS or MH dependent on your style of growing.

It seems the roots are more durable then I thought. The sight of the exposed root system just seems so...exposed, like if anything touches them its gonna get sucked into the biological network of the plant and kill the whole thing from within.

Cannabis is not a particularly fragile plant. It's really rather hard to kill it. You really have to do something fairly silly to kill a cannabis plant, but new growers DO manage it sometimes.

Now, if you want a finicky plant, try raising some Australian natives, which keel over dead when there's a box of ferts with any phosphorus in it within the same time zone...

I found an excellent video on youtube(I grow Chronic) that answers alot of my questions. However, this dude vegetates his clones for a whole two months and then puts them in the flowering room.

There's a man with some time on his hands!

Al, you say take clones directly from the clone box and put them into flowering, how long are they in the clone box for until they're good to flower?

Clones send out first taproots 6-7 days after cuttings, roots are well developed enough by day 10-14 for them to leave the clonebox and go into flower.

Also, for a new grower would you recommend letting clones veg a little and grow more strength before going into flowering?

Nope. They'll do fine for you or me with zero veg time. If you veg them, they will get too tall. If your op is maintaining the right temps & RH etc., you'll get what I get.

LOL damb this room is gettin bitchy! As far as lights are concern, have you guys looked into running a series of CFL's, maybe 80 or so 27watters, to achieve the desired light source...? Maybe even put them in cool tubes?Hu?

dcg, I KNOW you have lost your mind now... or simply are having a bit of fun at the noobs' expense.

CFLs have no place in a cannabis grow op other than over clones or perhaps rasing mums. A cooltube on a CFL is like a condom on a limp dick.

 

[daddychrisg]

A cooltube on a CFL is like a condom on a limp dick.
A cooltube on a CFL is like a condom on a limp dick.
A cooltube on a CFL is like a condom on a limp dick.


LMAOLMAOLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What would be the point in putting CFL's in a cool tube?? They do not put out that much heat anyway.
HMMM.....

 

[Al B. Fuct]

According to J. Cervantes in Marijuana Horticulture: The Indoor/Outdoor Medical Growers Bible (2006), 1000W HPS is 140 Lumens per Watt, and at one foot away is 140K lumens but at 3 feet away is 15.5K lumens. Meanwhile a 600W HPS is 150 LPW, at one foot away it delivers 90K lumens and at 2 feet away 22,500 lumens.

JC is quite right, but cooltubes were not as common when he was writing that bit as they are now. JC also tends to take his old version and polish it up before releasing a new edition rather than write entirely new stuff for each edition. No doubt, I would do the same but I think I'd be a bit more enthusiastic about removing old data. JC is pretty thorough for the most part, though- more so than Ed Rosenthal on his own, anyway.

My 'tubed 1000s are about 300-350mm (~12-14" or so) clear of my growing tips. One good guess put the luminous output of a 'tubed 1000 at about 85K lumens/sf @ 12".

Now, I love cannabis discussion forums because everyone can have an equal voice. However, might I please discourage folks from being disrespectful to one another? If you have a difference of opinion, by all means, discuss and support your case, but please don't go ad hominem on folks. Critique the data, not the person.

This thread is at 100 pages and nearly 1000 posts, 56,000 reads so far at close to 1000 per week! It does not remain lively and interesting because ppl have spent a lot of time bitching at one another.

 

[LoudBlunts]

damn Al is a peer mediator too?

damn that man can do it all!

 

[Al B. Fuct]

damn Al is a peer mediator too?

I once was a moderator/mentor on Overgrow- for about 5 years, in fact, up 'til 2005. I don't want that task anymore, thanks.

This is post #1000. Thanks to everyone who has contributed positively so far and to all the readers who keep referring to this thread.

 

[daddychrisg]

I hear ya AL, I second your wise statement...."Critique the data, not the person." enough said....this is the best thread on this site for many reasons.....

 

[stickyicky77]

AL, i am waiting on my mothers to get a little bigger before i start taking clones off of them. I am getting everything ready though. I got 14 pot that were made for my 2x2 flood and drain table. I have some 1" rock wool cubes to start my clones in and some 3" cubes to transfer the clones in before it put them into the pots. My question is should i veg a little longer once the clones show root through the 1" cubes and i put them in the 3" ? Should i wait until the roots show through the 3" cubes before putting them in the pot in my table?