The Quest for a Better Aero!

[Mike Young]

More exciting to me than the harvest was being able to rip everything apart & get some new ideas churning in my brain. I've got a sentinal DRT-1 timer being shipped my way. I have decided to retire the pvc towers and go with these cool leaf bins I found at home depot. Kinda sad, cause I put so much work into the pvc. Oh well.

I bought a sheet of 2" styrofoam for the top, and plan to place a neoprene insert 1" into it to support the plants. (see pics) No more medium! I really wasn't looking forward to cleaning my hydroton.

I haven't purchased an accumulator yet, or any of the solenoids/valves/fittings yet. I was hoping to get a little help from the HPA freaks here on getting the right stuff. The accum is easy, just wanna find the right price. Solenoid & pressure regulator stuff is kinda outta my wheelhouse, but I've read enough here to get it done with some advice. I know I wanna go the pex tubing/john guest route, but again I'd like to pay the best price.

I'll post a couple pics of what I've got so far. Not much. I'm gonna try & get this thing done asap, but gotta get some things ordered before the weekend.

Thanks!

Oh, and the bins are 25" tall x 21" diameter. Yeah!

 

[tree farmer]

are you going to have 3 containers again or just 2?
id mount one selonoid right on each lid and run 1/4 inch JG tubing from your accumulator right to each selonoid and then mount your sentinal timer on the wall to fire the selonoids on the lid. if you cant mount the selonoids on the lid try and get them as close to the nozzles as possible as youll have so much more control if you have the selonoids right by the nozzles. the 1/4 inch JG run from the accumulatoris plenty to feed the nozzles and makes a quick and clean install. this place has almost any JG fitting you want and they have very competitive prices. Not the fastest shipping though.
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/c-500-john-guest-pp-range-white-polypropylene-fittings.aspx
you can get some nice SS selonoids 1/4 inch here for around 30 bucks
http://stcvalve.com/Process Valve.htm?gclid=CKzLiNXS750CFQRM5QodK0OaMQ
if you size your accumulator big enough you can do dtw easily with 2 or three of those containers and not mess with a pressure switch, pressure relief valve or a res. just pump up the tank every4 days-week or so. its not easy finding high pressure accumulators(>100psi) in north america but you can find decent sized ones that will work at 80-100psi. if you want higher operating pressures you have to order tanks from overseas or have someone custom make one here for big bucks. i cant tell you what size accumulator since i have no idea what nozzles your using and thier flowrate. you need to deciede on a nozzle and then work backward to figure out the accumulator size and how many to put in each container. i know people think biocontrols has expensive nozzles but as far as hydraulic nozzles go ive found them to be one of the best performing.
Dont feel bad about tossing the PVC. ive got a small warehouse of things tossed along the way.

 

[Mike Young]

So I went ahead and bought a flotec 19 gallon accum tank. It's 19 gallons, 5 drawdown @ 40-60 psi, 100 psi max. The bladder can be removed & replaced. I'm hoping the large capacity will make my life easier.

I was about to buy the solenoids you (TF) recommended, but didn't want to get the wrong ones. Part#2S025-1/4? I noticed the orifice is 2.5mm on those. Does a larger orifice equate to quicker response? I saw that the $40 ones had twice the orifice...

My current nozzles are not going to work. I couldn't find much info on biocontrols nozzles??? My pump is 60 psi max, and while I know that isn't ideal, I can't afford to buy a new pump this time around. I burnt my last out in 2 months. This will be my last shurflo pump I think. I really don't want to mess up on the wrong nozzles. I don't need many, so I'll pay for decent ones. I really want to do DTW, waste being my current res where I can pump it outside seperatly. I will have to add a new res outside my room, just to the other side of the wall. This will actually make feeding & tending to the plants a whole lot easier. I like it.

I can run without a pressure switch & relief valve? Is it safe? I'm interested.

2 pots this time around. I really appreciate the input. I have the "bug". I spend more time thinking about this shit than I even care to admit.

 

[tree farmer]

thats the right part number for the selonoids. the 2.5 mm orifice is fine. if you went with the 40 dollars ones they use 3/8 tubing and fittings and its nothing like the 1/4 inch. 1/4 inch can be bent and curved as its very flexible but 3/8 is not and is a pain to work with. i recomend the tubing from this place as its the nicest ive ever used. its cheap also especially in 50 and 100 ft lengths.
http://www.h2odistributors.com/pe-08-bi-0500f-w.asp
these are the nozzles
http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/item.aspx?itemid=85
i grew these roots using those nozzles


the problem though is those nozzles need to operate at 80-100psi and they wont work with 40-60psi. it will be very hard to get proper droplet sizes with 40-60psi. you can still knock out some great plants but you just wont be able to get the finer root structure as you could with 80-100psi.

with 2 containers and 4 nozzles per you could use probably a gallon or so aday of solution depending on the pulse. you shouldnt need more than 1 sec every 3-10 minutes lights on and 1 sec evey 15-30 minutes lights out.

you can only run without a pressure switch and relief valve if you have enough capacity to fire the nozzles for a long enough time so that you can just pump up the accumulator every few days or so. Lets say you go thru 1 gallon aday of solution and you have a 5 gallon drawdown then you could just hook the pump up and charge the tank and then you wouldnt have to charge the tank again for 5 days. so every 5 days you go in and pump it up and it does the rest. no pump running at all for 5 days. to make this approach work you have to have very low flow nozzles and a timer that can fire 1 sec or less. as far as flow goes you dont really need 4 of the bio nozzles in that container but it will give better coverage than just 2 would but 2 could work also. with 4 you have to be able to have a short pulse 1 sec or less.

ive used the shurflo for years and have never had one quit if using it with an accumulator. had one failure when cycling the pump with no accumulator though.

 

[Atomizer]

I`d bypass the pumps onboard pressure switch to see if it can give you some more pressure, just keep an eye on how hot the pump body is getting

 

[Mike Young]

TF: Thanks for the update. I like the sound of that. How long do you think the pump would run to fill the tank? If the pump gets close to thermal limits, a pressure switch could be added to add more cycles for less dutartion, is that right?

Atomizer: I've come so close to snipping that wire, lol! Thanks for the boost of confidence.

I really don't require much piping. Would 3/4" pex give my misters better flow, worse, or no difference? This pic is a mockup of what I'm thinking. Ideas are more than welcome!

 

[Atomizer]

It depends on how much flow the pump has at max pressure but as TF said at 40psi-60psi the tank holds 5gal of nutes. If you can get the pump to do 80psi you can run 60psi-80psi and the tank will hold 4gals of nutes so the pump will work harder but not for as long
3/4" pipe after the solenoid is bad, it acts as a reservoir and will cause your mist to run on after the solenoid closes..1/4" pipe is a lot better. It looks like the chambers are spring loaded i`d test to see how much weight it takes to flatten them.. you dont want it happening a week from harvest You might want to consider wrapping the chambers in reflectix or a similar waterproof insulation as black will draw the heat.

 

[greendog77]

Treefarmer, what type of connection do you use for those biocontrol nozzles? I don't see any John Guest connections with 1/8" female ends.
Also, if anyone can post a link to a good pressure switch, I'd be grateful. I'm planning on running an aquatec 6800 to an accumulator, and most places that sell these also have pressure switches, they just seem to be pre set to 40 p.s.i, and I believe one had them at 80. I'm planning on setting the pressure from 90 to 120.

 

[tree farmer]

i have a shurflo that i bypassed the pressure switch on and this particular pump is rated for 150 psi and after i unhooked the pressure switch ive had the thing up to 240psi and it was still climbing so you might be surprised at what the pump can do. mine never has got hot from pumping 3 gallons into a PT. ive never timed it but it doesnt take long (a few minutes).
not to beat a dead horse but as Atomizer said dont go with the 3/4inch. especially after the selonoid and i wouldnt recommend it before the selonoid either as its way to much solution sitting in the line to heat up. the 1/4 inch john guest tubing solves alot of problems when it comes to performance of the system especially in a small setup like yours and once youve used the JG tubing youll never go back to PVC id bet on that. my last rig i ran 8 of the above selonoids with 12 bio nozzles off one 1/4 inch JG tubing line and it fed the nozzles just fine.

ive found that the duct reflective insulation with a adhiesive backing works great to insulate and reflect heat in containers. its easy to apply to any shape container and is not expensive at the outlet stores.

how you setup the pump will all depend on what pressure you can get that PT pumped up to. and that pressure then will determine what nozzles you can use. and the nozzle flowrate then will tell you how long the PT drawdown will get you which in turn will determine the best way to hook the pump up. (manual pumpup every few days or Pressure Switch and auto pump ups when needed.) its all circular

 

[tree farmer]

Treefarmer, what type of connection do you use for those biocontrol nozzles? I don't see any John Guest connections with 1/8" female ends.
Also, if anyone can post a link to a good pressure switch, I'd be grateful. I'm planning on running an aquatec 6800 to an accumulator, and most places that sell these also have pressure switches, they just seem to be pre set to 40 p.s.i, and I believe one had them at 80. I'm planning on setting the pressure from 90 to 120.

the third one down in this link
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/c-500-john-guest-pp-range-white-polypropylene-fittings.aspx

they aint cheap though so i hope you dont need to many

for pressure switches look at grainger or mncaster carr they have any setting pressure switch youd need.

 

[Atomizer]

I'm planning on running an aquatec 6800 to an accumulator, and most places that sell these also have pressure switches, they just seem to be pre set to 40 p.s.i, and I believe one had them at 80. I'm planning on setting the pressure from 90 to 120.

You`ll need to adjust the pump pressure pretty much all the way up on the 6800 to get 120psi, they usually come factory preset at 80psi. A 5gal accumulator will take a good 15minutes to charge from 90psi-120psi with a 6800.
Depending on the number of nozzles, flowrate and timing, the tank should run for hours between charges. I have a 6800 hooked up to drive an outdoor aero setup, 24 nozzles on a 1sec/2min cycle, the 5gal tank should last for around 4.5hrs.

 

[PetFlora]

Unless Sentinel has improved their timers (I have the MDT-1) according to the factory, they are not accurate at one second, and do not go below.

Atomizer can chime in with data, but it seems those Ryobis would require < one second wet cycles, as he told me my 30G pod with a single head would need < one second. So if you are going with the DRT-1 you might consider a minimum 30G Rubbermaid, which will accommodate 2 plants. The 30Gs are 17" deep. If you want to minimize root gathering get 2 @ 30G and stack them, but cut the entire bottom out of each so there is no lip inside for roots or moisture to collect.

FYI, well into my 4th grow and no issues using the same Aquatec 8800 ($90). The owner of Reptile Basics told me it was much better built than the 6800

hth

 

[Atomizer]

He wouldn`t be too far off with one nozzle, 0.9second. There`s nothing wrong with a 6800 if you run with an accumulator, mine can handle a 24 nozzle, 350gal chamber without any trouble at all.
The 8800 is a better choice if you don`t use an accumulator as the pump has to supply 100% of the flow to the nozzles.

 

[Mike Young]

Well, it's funny you should mention it. Amazon cancelled my order yesterday for the timer. Is there a better option for around $100? I got amazon to comp me $20 for the inconvienience. Is the flip flop (TF) a better choice?
The bags are spring loaded, and can handle a couple of pounds. I was thinking that I would not have the styrofoam rest on the bins, but supported by other means, not yet sure. That way I could pull down the bag to observe the roots, and access nozzles. I was thinking 2 nozzles at the top, pointing down & in. If one per unit is enough, that's fine by me.

I will only be growing one plant per vessle. I will take the advice on the 1/4" tubing. I ordered the solenoids & picked up a 5-30um filter yesterday. I will try & fill that accum to get an idea of what kind of pressure I'll be working with, and which nozzles to use. Anybody use these nozzles? http://www.bete.com/products/pj.html They look like they might be in my pressure range.

 

[tree farmer]

id go with the 422 flip flop timer. half the money and goes down below 1 sec and ive been using them forever and never had one quit. you do have to mount them and wire it but its straight forward if you know even a little about wiring. get the mounting kit and the socket to plug it into which come seperately.
http://www.sordselectric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SE&Product_Code=TAT422A100F10X&Category_Code=AT

ive used the PJ series. they produce a good mist for smaller containers. i had some plugging issues but found out they sell filters to go right in the nozzle. ordered some but have never tried the nozzles since i got the filters so i dont know if they help. the nozzles are very expense. imo you really need at least 100psi to fire them well. all nozzles will plug occasionally so its good to be able to access them no matter what kind of nozzle.

youll need at least 2 nozzles for good coverage. the top down mounting is the only way ive found that works well in keeping the nozzles away from the roots when things get crowded.

 

[greendog77]

the third one down in this link
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/c-500-john-guest-pp-range-white-polypropylene-fittings.aspx

they aint cheap though so i hope you dont need to many

for pressure switches look at grainger or mncaster carr they have any setting pressure switch youd need.

THanks man, I must have missed that one.


THis looks like the right pressure switch for my application. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/SQUARE-D-Pressure-Switch-6B441?Pid=search, but I don't know what kind of fittings I'll need to connect it between pump and accumulator, not to mention power supply. Any more help you can offer would be cool. I'm going to use this accumulator http://cgi.ebay.ca/Shurflo-Accumulator-Tank-181-201-Brand-new-/320673953274?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa9a835fa, as my garden is very small, we're talking 10 square feet. I'll be running two nozzles into an 18 G rubbermaid, of which I can fit three into my space. I figure 1 second burts each minute should suffice. THis timer looks good http://www.greners.com/cap-art-dne-digital-adjustable-recycling-timer.html, and I'll likely use one of these solenoids at each nozzle http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300538077122&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
I've spent hours and hours reading about TAG and have become convinced I ought to switch now that I have some wiggle room in my budget. however, some questions remain unanswered, and if anyone of the pioneers following this thread wants to help it might save me a crop or two.
I'm sure I'll have to adjust and experiment some anyways, but does the aforementioned misting cycle sound right for the size of container? I'll be sticking with SOG unless the laws here change, and I figure top down DTW spraying is the way to go.
I've gathered that low ppm's are a must, but should they increase as the plants and roots grow? I figure I'll use my AN nutes and additives mixed to a 3-1-4, kinda like Fatman, as I'll be running co2. What kind of ppm is best? 120 or so? All the way through flower?
With such low salt levels, do TAG gardens require flushing?
I guess beneficials, enzymes, and carbs are out the window? How about the flavour enhancers found in AN's Sweetleaf and Bud Factor X?
As per fatman, chilling is not required for high pressure aero resevoirs, so without bene's, I'll be running H2o2. How much and how often?

 

[Atomizer]

A 1 second burst is 4x the ideal misting duration for 2 nozzles in an 18gal. The accumulator is on the small side but it may last for 58 minutes between recharges (90psi-120psi) running 2 nozzles on that timing cycle.
I would go for the cycle timer TF linked, as the Art DNe`s seem prone to fail in hp aero.

 

[PetFlora]

GD77: I have a lot of experience using 18 G totes. They are excellent for cloning/vegging but too small for more than 2 mature plants, even small AF types.

30G provides ample room for the mist to expand, float and fall.

JG fittings has an inline filter (quick connect), which is an easier option for cleaning anything that gets that far, as opposed to taking your mist heads out, taking them apart, then cleaning the tiny screens. BTDT

hth

 

[PetFlora]

RE: Timers: Even I find (not using an accumulator) that half second intervals would be helpful, especially when my MDT is not accurate at one second, and 2 seconds is too much. I am still looking for a digital lab timer at a reasonable price that is either 120V or easily converted. Anybody?

hth

 

[Atomizer]

A pump isn`t going to do jack with a true 0.5second pulse. I classify the pulse length as being from the instant the mist starts to the instant the mist stops