Bleach instead of H2o2
- Thread starter choempi
- Start date
Dwight D. Schrute
Member
someone correct me if im wrong, but umm, i believe it is none.....
Michael Phelps
Well-Known Member
Man i personally think your better off just getting some h202... Fatman is the only person ive ever heard talk about putting bleach in your reservoir and the thought honestly scares me..
choempi
Well-Known Member
I actually have run the last 2 days on a cap of bleach per gallon, but want confirmation
choempi
Well-Known Member
Dropastone
Well-Known Member
I haven't tried it yet but my buddy uses 8 drops per gallon and has had no ill effects and claims his roots are whiter than ever. He got the tip from a guy that works at a professional greenhouse. According to him that's what they use and they've been doing it for years to keep the roots clean and healthy.
Hope this helps you out.
Peace.
Hope this helps you out.
Peace.
choempi
Well-Known Member
Hope this helps you out.
Thanks, I think you are about right, I know it is used in commercial applications...
Peace.
fatman7574
New Member
Do you think the majority of commercial hydroponic green house growers are wrong. They use chlorine at 4 ppm or higher added into the pipesfeeding the irrigation spray heads so as to m not waster chlorine in the reservoirs through dissipation. I recommend 2.5 ppm as an initail treatment reduced to 0.5 ppm as a residual level of chlorine. Tap water is allowed to contain up to 4 ppm at customers faucets. Thousands of growers of mj use tap water without any removal of chlorine. 10's of thousands of people water their houseplants, flowers and lawns with water containiing up to 4 ppm of chlorine. Plants can tolerate extremely high anounts of chlorine. they ac not tolerate chloride. Fish can tolerate high levels of chloride but not chlorine. Salt is sodium chloride. Plants can not tolerate high levels of chloride Caphese.
Hydrogen peroxide is a much stronger oxidizer than chlorine. It is much easier to cause problems using hydrogen peroxide than to use chlorox bleach.
Too many myths in forums and on the web. Have you heard of Pythoff. It is sold in two versions. Professional/commercial made with chloroamine or hobby grade made with chlorine.
http://www.flairform.com/Products/pythoff.htm http://www.urbangardenershop.com.au/product/457/default.asp
the MSDS for hobby grade:
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGklFzIeFLdm0AkIxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEybGVibTBpBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0g0NjVfNzk-/SIG=12mrpieok/EXP=1273131763/**http%3a//www.flairform.com/downloads/msds_pythoff_hobby_strength.pdf
When your wrong your wrong. This time your very wrong. Consider your self corrected.
fatman7574
New Member
Dropastone
Well-Known Member
Thanks fat man that was a very informative read. So Chlorine bleach would be the way to go because there are quite a few different kinds on the market?
Types of Bleach
There are several types of bleach. Chlorine bleach usually contains sodium hypochlorite. Oxygen bleach contains hydrogen peroxide or a peroxide-releasing compound such as sodium perborate or sodium percarbonate. Bleaching powder is calcium hypochlorite. Other bleaching agents include sodium persulfate, sodium perphosphate, sodium persilicate, their ammonium, potassium and lithium analogs, calcium peroxide, zinc peroxide, sodium peroxide, carbamide peroxide, chlorine dioxide, bromate, and organic peroxides (e.g., benzoyl peroxide).
While most bleaches are oxidizing agents, other processes can be used to remove color. For example, sodium dithionite is a powerful reducing agent that can be used as a bleach.
Types of Bleach
There are several types of bleach. Chlorine bleach usually contains sodium hypochlorite. Oxygen bleach contains hydrogen peroxide or a peroxide-releasing compound such as sodium perborate or sodium percarbonate. Bleaching powder is calcium hypochlorite. Other bleaching agents include sodium persulfate, sodium perphosphate, sodium persilicate, their ammonium, potassium and lithium analogs, calcium peroxide, zinc peroxide, sodium peroxide, carbamide peroxide, chlorine dioxide, bromate, and organic peroxides (e.g., benzoyl peroxide).
While most bleaches are oxidizing agents, other processes can be used to remove color. For example, sodium dithionite is a powerful reducing agent that can be used as a bleach.
fatman7574
New Member
Blah sa, blah sa, blah. Most chlorine bleachs sold for laundry use do not contain anything but Chlorine and sodium from sodium hypochlorite plus water. Yes thare are chlorine cleaning products that contain many other ingrediants, such as toilet bowl, counter and tile cleaners etc. Just look at the labels. You want unscented houshold strength chlorine bleach such as Chlorox brand (not lemon scented) Regular Bleach. The same plain old Chlorox bleach that has been sold since 1913. A gallon would last the typical hobby grower a life time if used only for growing. http://www.clorox.com/products/overview.php?prod_id=clb
fatman7574
New Member
No chlorine or Hydrogen peroxide is used with chemical nutrients. Hygrozyme is used with organic nutrients. With organic nutrients solutions you need bacteria and enzymes to break down the organic susbstances into readily uptakable nutrients. With a chemical nutrients system you try to maintain a bacteria and enzyme free nutrient solutiom. All the chemical fertilizers are already in a form that they can be easily taken up by the plant roots. Except for the metalic trace elements and the chelates provided with the chelated iron make them readily usable by the plants.
Hydgrozyme is supposed to compete with the pythium and bacteria causing root rot to rapidly spread, it is claimed they get more of the food (dying roots) before the bacteria thereby stopping the bacteria from multiplying. That is not true, they are ust some selected bacteria that are able to compete with the bacteria thereby slowing the root rot and pythium. They are bacteria and enzymes from South America that will live through the heat created when chicken manure is composted so they live while the other bacteria and enzymes are destroyed. The chicken manure piles are innoculatted with the bacteria early during the composting. However the other bacteria that are destroyed from heat during composting are air borne and quickly reestablish themselves in the compost so they are also present in the hygrozyme when you buy it. The Hygrozyme is the liquid that leaches from compost after watering the piles after the compost has cooled down (finished composting). The bacteria once killed off are also airbornes so establish them selves in your reservoir wiyth in days if there is not something their to kill them.
Chlorine actually kills the bacteria and pythium. It also kills enzymes. It does not kill enzymes living within the plants or its roots.
Hydgrozyme is supposed to compete with the pythium and bacteria causing root rot to rapidly spread, it is claimed they get more of the food (dying roots) before the bacteria thereby stopping the bacteria from multiplying. That is not true, they are ust some selected bacteria that are able to compete with the bacteria thereby slowing the root rot and pythium. They are bacteria and enzymes from South America that will live through the heat created when chicken manure is composted so they live while the other bacteria and enzymes are destroyed. The chicken manure piles are innoculatted with the bacteria early during the composting. However the other bacteria that are destroyed from heat during composting are air borne and quickly reestablish themselves in the compost so they are also present in the hygrozyme when you buy it. The Hygrozyme is the liquid that leaches from compost after watering the piles after the compost has cooled down (finished composting). The bacteria once killed off are also airbornes so establish them selves in your reservoir wiyth in days if there is not something their to kill them.
Chlorine actually kills the bacteria and pythium. It also kills enzymes. It does not kill enzymes living within the plants or its roots.
fatman7574
New Member
Hydgrozyme is really made for organic nutrients and soil grows. While you can use it with chemical nutrients you are turning a near sterile and clean nutrient/growing system back into a bacterial/enzyme/pathogen laden system. Sort a step backward. One of the huge advantages of a hydroponic system is eliminating the presence of bacteria and enzynes by using nutrients that prevent their need. Hydroponic chemical nutrients preclude the need for bacteria or enzymes for nutrient uptake availability. Chlorine then prevents the growth or even the presence of nearly all bacteria/pathogens. Hygrozyme creates conditions supportive of bacteria and pathogens. It is sorta like adding the bacteria needed to process waste in a waste water (sewage) treatment plant to a drinking water treatment plant. IE a step backward or a step in the wrong direction. In a waste water treatment plant you need loads of bacteria to break down organic nutrients just as in an organic nutrient reservoir. In a drinking water plant all the organic nutrients were broken down before they entered the drinking water treament plant (as in a chemical nutrient reservoir) therefore a disinfectant (chlorine) is used to kill nearly al (99% to 99.9%) of all bacteria present as most bacteria are harmful rather than helpful. Hygrozyme is reputed to contain "0NE" helpful bacteria but it's use encourages conditions supportive of many non helpful bacteria and pathogens. This basically means unless you plan to empty and clean your reservoir very often and flush the sytem with H2O2 or chlorine to kill all bacteria, enzymes and pathogens to get rid of all the non beneficial ones, then you are providing a very bacterial, and pathogen laden sytem for the plants roots to deal. This mans you are expecting a "beneficial bacteria" to actually grow faster then them and take a larger proportion of the food available and therfore keep the "bad bacteria and pathogens" at low levels. Not gonna happen. Last I heard the hygrozyme people even quit adding the beneficial bacteria and are now just selling straight chicken manure water leachings. IE an organic fertilizer.
i hear ppl praise hydrozyme like its the greatest thing. i dont really like paying 130$ for 4litres anyways . lol ok then so would just my sensi bloom / grow A B along with the recommened 8 drops of cloarox per gallon of water . is that a basic pathogen free mix for me to go with for now ?. ive been using the zyme with my grows with the same mix for a year now and ive had good results .
fatman7574
New Member
0.006% is equal to 0.6 ppm. That is basically a residual dose that will keep a chemical nutrient reservoir disinfected if you are daily adding more nutrients to your reservoir. It is a bit light for a disinfecting dose though. I recommend an initial dose of about 2 ppm to 2.5 ppm and a residual level of 0.5 ppm. Higher doses such as used by commercial green house growers are because they quite often use surface water and water from open irrigation canals. These often have Pythium that are more resistant to chlorine that can require up to 4 ppm to kill. However a maintenance (residual) level of 0.5 ppm will keep re population of even the more resistant Pythium from reestablishing a population. Even the most resistance bacteria and pathogens are killed down to at least a 0.01 to 1 percent population by a 20 minute contact with a 2 ppm dose. So starting out with a 2.5 ppm dose nearly all chemical nutrient systems will maintain a dose high enough to kill all Pythium, bacteria or pathogens before the chlorine drops below 2 ppm. It will then 12 to 24 hours for the rest of the chlorine to dissipate down to around 0.5 ppm.
If you have a root rot problem already established then a larger 4 ppm dose would be advised for an initial dose, then drop to 2 ppm the next day and 0.5 ppm each day after that until harvest. You can easily use dose 100 times larger initially without harming all but young seedlings. However with such high levels you will oxidize all your iron causing it to dissipate as rust. You would kill most of any hair roots but the regrow nearly daily.
I repeat, you should not use chlorine or H2O2 with organic fertilizers or with organic supplements as it will kill the bacteria and enzymes they contain. Remember also that agrozyme does not kill Pythium, allegedly it can not compete with the hydrozyme bacteria for food so they can not multiply quickly enough to cause problems. The commercial greenhouse industries does not support that claim. Hygrozyme does not even now claim to add the beneficial enzymes they once added. There adds and stories page is full of deceptive things. For an example they claim: •
The follwing sentences in quotes are from the Hyd grozyme site at the link provided. "Hygrozyme is the only known solution on the market that can be used in conjunction with hydrogen peroxide in a ppm of 1-2% solution, a combination used by many operators to clean, sterilize and oxygenate roots." http://www.hygrozyme.info/directions/world-garden/using-hygrozyme-in-pure-hydroponic-systems.html What does that mean ? We know that a 1% solution is 100 ppm and a 2% solution is 200 ppm. That concentration would be unusable in any hydroponic system (chemical or organic). Period. However consider a house hold bottle of H2O2 is 3.5%. Are they suggesting a to 1 ppm solution of a 3.5% solution. IE a 1 to 100 dilution of 350 ppm solution. That is 3.5 ppm. Now consider if it was the stronger 35% H2O2 used by most growers. That would mean a ppm of 35 ppm. That is absurd also as H2O2 is a stronger oxidizer than chlorine and Chlorine even at 2 ppm kills the "beneficial enzymes". I think they are about as credible as Fat Mikie at AN.
"It is important to note that Hygrozyme is a natural plant enzyme. It does not kill anything. To be effective, it is best used before bio film build up grabs hold in your system, causing complications and producing an environment ideal for problems such as Pythium." Duh, kill the bacteria with cholorine and maintan residual chlorine in a chemical nutrient solution and there is never a biofilm present.
"While some growers have reported Hygrozyme has arrested root rot, it has to be caught early and treated with vigilance It kills nothing but it is going to arrest root rot. Ie that is back to the claim that hygrozyme can out feed the food provided by the dead roots. It is no wonder no other hydro growers acre still using hygrozyme but mj growers. It is an absurd product for anyone but those growing with organic fertilizers in a clsoed sytem.
They make claims that certain PhD's I know personally have recommended their products. I know these men personally and that is not the case.
English is definitely not the first language of the person who writes their marketing adds. The sentenses in quotes were cut and psted add material. The only changes I made was to bold a sentence and add quote marks.
Not to pick on those with Down's syndrome, but does it kind alook like Fat Mikie has Down's syndrome.
If you have a root rot problem already established then a larger 4 ppm dose would be advised for an initial dose, then drop to 2 ppm the next day and 0.5 ppm each day after that until harvest. You can easily use dose 100 times larger initially without harming all but young seedlings. However with such high levels you will oxidize all your iron causing it to dissipate as rust. You would kill most of any hair roots but the regrow nearly daily.
I repeat, you should not use chlorine or H2O2 with organic fertilizers or with organic supplements as it will kill the bacteria and enzymes they contain. Remember also that agrozyme does not kill Pythium, allegedly it can not compete with the hydrozyme bacteria for food so they can not multiply quickly enough to cause problems. The commercial greenhouse industries does not support that claim. Hygrozyme does not even now claim to add the beneficial enzymes they once added. There adds and stories page is full of deceptive things. For an example they claim: •
The follwing sentences in quotes are from the Hyd grozyme site at the link provided. "Hygrozyme is the only known solution on the market that can be used in conjunction with hydrogen peroxide in a ppm of 1-2% solution, a combination used by many operators to clean, sterilize and oxygenate roots." http://www.hygrozyme.info/directions/world-garden/using-hygrozyme-in-pure-hydroponic-systems.html What does that mean ? We know that a 1% solution is 100 ppm and a 2% solution is 200 ppm. That concentration would be unusable in any hydroponic system (chemical or organic). Period. However consider a house hold bottle of H2O2 is 3.5%. Are they suggesting a to 1 ppm solution of a 3.5% solution. IE a 1 to 100 dilution of 350 ppm solution. That is 3.5 ppm. Now consider if it was the stronger 35% H2O2 used by most growers. That would mean a ppm of 35 ppm. That is absurd also as H2O2 is a stronger oxidizer than chlorine and Chlorine even at 2 ppm kills the "beneficial enzymes". I think they are about as credible as Fat Mikie at AN.
"It is important to note that Hygrozyme is a natural plant enzyme. It does not kill anything. To be effective, it is best used before bio film build up grabs hold in your system, causing complications and producing an environment ideal for problems such as Pythium." Duh, kill the bacteria with cholorine and maintan residual chlorine in a chemical nutrient solution and there is never a biofilm present.
"While some growers have reported Hygrozyme has arrested root rot, it has to be caught early and treated with vigilance It kills nothing but it is going to arrest root rot. Ie that is back to the claim that hygrozyme can out feed the food provided by the dead roots. It is no wonder no other hydro growers acre still using hygrozyme but mj growers. It is an absurd product for anyone but those growing with organic fertilizers in a clsoed sytem.
They make claims that certain PhD's I know personally have recommended their products. I know these men personally and that is not the case.
English is definitely not the first language of the person who writes their marketing adds. The sentenses in quotes were cut and psted add material. The only changes I made was to bold a sentence and add quote marks.
Not to pick on those with Down's syndrome, but does it kind alook like Fat Mikie has Down's syndrome.