Calling All Noob Growers

This thread should be a sticky?

  • Yes, it was very helpful

    Votes: 610 89.1%
  • No, this info is already covered

    Votes: 75 10.9%

  • Total voters
    685

riddleme

Well-Known Member
First let me say hello and tell you that you have come to the right place to learn to grow this wonderful plant, there is so much info here that it will easily overwhelm you.

There are so many different ways of growing, so many different styles of nutes, and mostly so many differing opinions. How do you, a new grower wade thru all of it and come away with a simple understanding of what is real and what is myth?

Not to worry as I have done it for you, when I came here I spent over 1000 hours just reading threads. I also purchased and read 45 books and I have over 20 dvd's. Now I grew back in the day before all this designer stuff happened, so it was all new to me and even with experience I was overwhelmed. I decided to do several experiments to figure out on my own what was real and what was crap.

I am all about personal medical grows and showing folks how easy and cheap it is to grow your own medicine so for my first grow (to prove a point) I grew Matilda a 21 inch tall plant under one cfl with an added T9 (it was only 97 watts of light) I harvested 47.2 grams off her (1/2 gram a watt) and while pics of her are all over this site I am including them here for those of you that have never seen her.

During all of this experimenting I figured things out and in the process broke several known myths, I decided to share this info but realized that most folks would not get it. I came up with a plan to create a little game in order to share the info and several members played and helped create a very truthful, imformative thread that has helped many new growers. It worked and as a result every one that participated got thier grow on and started having sucess in thier gardens.

A new member recently followed the whole thing and told me it took him 2 and half days to read it all. I realized that this would limit how many people would actually take the time to do this and decided to post this thread giving YOU new growers the final reward (from the game) so you could decide for yourself whether or not you wanted to take the time to follow the game/class and get the info for yourselves ( the game itself happens in the first 40 pages of my NooB Advice thread, but has links to other threads, know that the answers are all in the thread so you don't really have to follow the links unless you want to. But I do advise it.)

Here is the final reward summary of the class quoted from page 36 of the thread,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

All of you that have played my little game have earned this. You have done the research and contributed to the thread in a very positive way. I have found that things click best and we tend to remember better when we do our own research and put things together on our own. I feel that to be a good teacher you have to know how to lead a horse to water so to speak.
.
Thank You for playing my little game and thank you for helping to make this thread work!
.
.
Now let me tell you a story, all the books I have read start out (or contain) a history of the plant we love. Some add in some of the myths, my fav is the notion that MJ is an alien plant that traveled here long ago and has been helping humans out in various ways. I want to believe this one because of all the good and positive things that are known to come from this plant. No, I'm not gonna dwell on history or notions. Let's just say I started this like all the others and move on.
.
There are many myths that just keep on surviving, simply because no one knows better. I suspect that it's like the game where you whisper something in another persons ear and pass it to the next person, the more people in the circle the more the info gets distorted. It's a fun exercise to try. Could also be that black market commercial growers have distorted the facts over the years to cut down on competition? Does not really matter where they came from, they exist, and there is some truth in all of them.
.
But lets get to the prize, for starters then we'll discuss some other things. With your help I have managed to include all of the facts (mantras) that allowed me to see what was happening. Plus I added a few extra clues to help fire up your thinking processes, get the juices flowing as it were. I know that if you are serious that you read my grow journal and saw what happened when I did my first flush and then fed her the so called super tonic ( I will continue that experiment and it will be detailed in my journal).
.
Here is what actually happened,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I simply made it rain.
.
Ponder on that and if your mind does not click things into place and start running a million miles a second you need to go read some more. Joking, What we hear called the flush is very simply what mother nature does when it rains. Now as I continue this story I am going to put my thoughts into laymens terms so that everybody gets what I am trying to say. I am not a botanist and while I know some of the big words and what they mean I do not pretend to fully understand all of this plants functions. That being said. The one missing third of the flush question in the thread was the fact that buds tend to fatten up towards the end (last 2 weeks) DURING THE FLUSH. Of course in most grows she dies eating herself, because folks tend to let her due to some taste, smell, whatever thing???
.
Remember earlier in the thread when we were talking about watering, someone quoted Uncle Ben and said water till you get PLENTY OF RUNOFF, sounds like a flush to me? not a drip, not a tray full, but PLENTY. You will get what looks like over watering and that can be scary the first time, as I detailed in my journal it was cool to see her curl up and droop. In my way of thinking this is when they actually sleep (mother natures way) cause we know they are doing things in the dark period. But I must admit that my research said they sleep in the dark period?
.
Now for me I think they are sleeping because during a rain there is most usually no sun (for awhile) and the PH of rain is 5.6 so no nute uptake, and the roots are soaked in water so there is no oxygen. Damn she is basically drowning. But I believe she shuts down and waits for the sun to come out, at which point she goes into overdrive to WICK the water out of the ground ( another word you hear UB use a lot) I believe that what I saw happen with that growth spurt (I have proved it with subsequent waterings) was being able to read when she wants water and when she wants food.
.
Let me draw the picture for you, mother natures way is to rain, then all the plants transpire the water back into the air and it rains again. Knowing this the best advice I could give a Noob when it comes to watering is to follow the instructions on your shampoo bottle,,,,Rinse & Repeat. Remember I was watering normally and it was taking 5 to 7 days before she needed water again but after the flush (rain) she wanted water after 2 and 1/2 days, this was when I gave her the super tonic. So basically I fed her. I see this as the acidic nature of rain is to release nutes from the soil so that once the water is wicked off the nutes will be available for the plant and the circle of life continues. So to tell you how to read your plants is simple after she has had a good meal, she wants it to rain again and after she has wicked off the water she wants food. WARNING if you do this in veg you will have trees! Remember that as you plan your grow to fit your garden.
.
It really is that simple and because you are both God and Mother Nature in your garden you can make it rain when ever you want. And because it takes time for the rain to activate the nutes in soil putting some in there after the wicking process makes them imediately avaiable. Please note that I did not PH my water down to 5.6 (but I am gonna experiment with it) when I flushed which I feel makes the nutes we feed her available even faster as we do not have to wait for the PH to balance itself as much.
.
Now lets get to some truths from the forum, everyone says start feeding at 1/4 strength, this makes total sense when you realize how we are now feeding her. If we gave her full strength every 3 or 4 days we would burn/kill her.
.
Put your finger in to test the moisture of the soil, this makes sense to understand when she has actually wicked most of the rain water out of the soil. Remember we do not want it to dry out we want to add our nutes right before she runs out of water to wick and while she is in overdrive to do so. Remember also that the next day after I fed her she was dry again and wanted more water. Hell I had not yet figured it out so I watered her as usual and she settled back into that lets go slow thing again. It was all of the total picture and having the mantras in my head that made it click for me.
.
Now that you understand how to water and feed properly, let's talk about soil. Obviously when starting out with seedlings/clones you need to nurture them and a good soil is an important part of this. Regardless of what you think or have read about it being possible to grow in Miracle Grow, stay away from it! It most usually comes in with a low PH (around 5.5) has bugs in it and is bad for our plants. I honestly believe they do this on purpose to cause harm to us MJ growers but that is just my opinion. That being said any good quality light soil (not hot with nutes) will do, as you know I like Happy Frogs (which would be considered a medium nute soil). You should start out in 6" Coir pots (available at nurseries) because they will get you thru the nurturing phase and transplanting up is as easy as planting the coir pot into a bigger pot. The proper way to do this is to fill a big bowl or pan or bucket (you get the idea) with water and submerge the Coir pot in it until it is soaked (no bubbles comming out) plant it in the bigger pot. No problems, no worries, no messing with roots. Do NOT water her after you put her in the big pot. Here is what happens, by submerging her in water, you put her to sleep. When she wakes up she will transpire (wick) the water out (from being submerged) and then will go into the new soil (in the bigger pot) looking for nutes. This method assures that there absolutely no stress from the transplanting.
.
NOTE; You can do all of your control stuff during this nurturing/veg stage things like topping, LST or supercropping (totally your choice, I suggest you experiment with all of them and learn what you like best). You can do the make it rain thing to get bigger plants or you water them the slow way (to keep em small), simply remembering not to over or under water (I have already told you how to figure this out)
.
Ok so now let's talk about the soil in the big pot. It does not have to be fancy and does not have to be organic, does not have to have nutes in it. WHY? because we are making it rain and suplementing nutes. This is why things like soiless mediums work. What we want now is called a Potting Mix (as opposed to potting soil), this puts us in complete control with regard to nutes and feeding and allows us to totally dial in how many nutes our plant (strain) can take without burn. Go to your local nursery and ask them to reccommend a good potting mix, and just get it. Now into this potting mix we want to add 1 cup (about a handful) of Sphagnum Moss and 1 tablespoon of Dolomite Lime this per gallon of soil (gonna refer to the potting mix as soil from now on, easier to type). WHY? because the Moss retains water and has a PH of 3.5, The Dolomite contains CAL/MAG (which MJ loves)and buffers the PH back into an acceptable range with each watering. I work and am gone everyday for 9 to 10 hours, the last thing I want is for my plant to wick out all of her water while I'm gone, so water retention is important to me. This is also why I put an inch of perlite in the bottom of my big pot. If your soil does not have perlite in it add some ( 1 cup per gallon of soil) when you mix it up. Because you want GOOD DRAINAGE for when you make it rain.
.
Now let's talk about Nutes, You only NEED one or two (you should get both and alternate them) First is DynaGro ($12.99)as it contains ALL of the necessary nutes that a plant NEEDS in just one feeding. Second is Jack's Classic ($4.99) as it is stronger in N-P-K values and has other needed supplements. Also add 1 teaspoon to 1 tablespoon of GRANDMAS UNSULFERED MOLASSES (as long as unsulfered other brands will work, but I like Grandmas)to 1 gallon of water as it contains Carbs and Sugars (has other good nutes as well) that aid in growth, MJ loves it. When you feed Nutes you just need enough runoff to know that the pot is now full of nutes (no point in wasting them). As to measuring, start out at 1/4 strength per the instructions on the package and slowly (with each feeding) work your way up until you notice ANY sign of nute burn. At the VERY FIRST SIGN of nute burn you have discovered what your plant can eat in a single feeding without problems GO BACK A STEP (I would go back 2 steps) and now you have your proper feeding mix for your plant (strain). I am including the word strain where it is important as no two strains will respond the same, why you should only grow one strain at a time and learn it. And by learn it I mean you should be keeping notes as to what works best with each strain so you can consult them in future grows. NOTE: By slowly working your way up I do not mean going from 1/4 to 1/2 more like 1/16 to 1/8 increments to get there, after all we do not want to overburn them! P.S. YES Nutes are this simple.
.
I want to spend just a moment on organic, if you somehow feel you must go organic then I'm not sure how it will work out for ya? In my opinion organic is a thing created by high commerce much similar to the fancy MJ nutes. I don't knock it cause it creates jobs for folks but also I don't do it. I honestly believe that if you sit in a blind taste test with properly grown, properly cured MJ, that you could not tell which one was organic and which was not. Not only myself but Uncle Ben agrees with this as well and several books I have agree it does not matter. Both DynaGro and Jack's are high quality nutes made from the best chemicals with the best processes available. Not like MG which is crap. And I just followed a grow journal where the member switched to Jack's and said there was hands down no competition from thier previous grow, Jack's was the shit.
.
Humidity and Temp as we discovered in the class/game, are very important as is the heat index, as the proper combination helps with fast transpiration (wicking). I will briefly touch on the humidity for veggin should be 50 to 60%, think april showers bring may flowers. For Clones & seedlings should be 70 to 80% cause they need more moisture in the air till good roots develope and for flowering should be in the low 30's to prevent mold as for temp MJ is temp tolorant from 50F to 90F but what you want during flower is a fall like temp with a heat index that does not exceed 78F (remember mine was 76.5) this is why I gave you the link to the heat index calculator. You want your humidity and temp combos to have a heat index just a few points above your actual temp to achieve fast easy (no stress to plant) transpiration. doing this will create the perfect enviroment for your girls and they will love you for it, by giving you big buds.
.
Circulation, is also important as we discussed in class and can assist in maintaining your humidity and temp. no need to go into detail here as there were several good methods for measuring it in the thread. Also no need to go into CO2 here we covered that as well, just know that if you were to go commercial, that the addition of CO2 allows you to raise all the numbers and make things happen faster. Also and this is very important, your plants want space between them. I see so many growers cramming plants into thier garden which goes against ALL known gardening facts. Your pots should have at least a foot between them and a foot and a half is better. This aids in circulation and light penetration and gives your plant the space it NEEDS to flourish.
.
Keepin em green, is not only a mantra, but a way of growing. It allows you to harvest the good (big) tops and then lower the lights and finish the lower buds (increasing your yields) and allows you to put her back in veg and go again with the same plant, just remember to leave the fan leaves on when you harvest the lower buds. It also allows you to flower longer and get those those huge donkey dick buds everybody drools over. as long as your plant is healthy and happy there is no reason for her to die. The saying "Patience is a virtue" is completely true. So many new growers are in such a hurry to harvest that they chop early. The reality is you should chop when the buds are ripe (and huge) and the breeders estimations of grow times are crap, the plant is done when it is done. My advice to you is this, grow more than one plant and when you think it might be done, only harvest one of them so you have some smoke and let the others go to see what they do, My other mantra do it, watch em and learn. This way you will learn what ripe is for you and the for you part is all that matters it's your smoke/medicine.
.
Water, There are so many theories on what kind of water to use. As you know I run regular tap water thru a brita filter I do this because it comes out 6.8 ph and filters out the crap that MIGHT be there (I'm not gonna pay to have it tested). I DO NOT let it set out to vape chlorine and I do not let it reach room temp. Let me share some more common sense with ya. All over the USA folks are watering thier lawns, trees, shrubs, bushes and flowers with city water from a hose or sprinkler system. NONE of them are dying, there are lush, green, pretty yards all over the place, so I'm pretty sure tap water is ok though it is true that there are areas that commonly have hard water (discussed in the Insiders Guide book, no reason to repeat, you should have purchased that book). Also I have, many times stood outside while it was raining and it is always COLD, plus I have experimented with it. Silly idea I had about how the cold would shock the plant and how the ground is warm from the sun, so I started with room temp water and gradually made it colder to see what would happen. Guess what it slowed transpiration down and she did not droop. So when you make it rain just use regular cold tap water, filter it, if you like and know that her drooping is a good thing!
.
Lights, We pretty much covered this in class, you know that I prefer CMH. WHY? Closest spectrum to the sun there is from ANY bulb. Less heat to deal with. Can be used for both veg & flower (since it has both spectrums) and has UVB to make more resin. Only available up to 400 watt and requires an older type magnetic ballast is why commercial growers don't like em. But for personal medical grows this light is the bomb, period! I have proven you can grow big buds with a small light, that was my intent in doing so (and let's be honest it's why your here cause it got your attention) I have shown you that not everything you read/hear about lights is true.
.
Summary, I have given you all the info I know, (and broken many of the myths) I have shown you with pics that I am not full of crap, don't know what I'm talking about Blah Blah Blah. I have proven that the Sum of ALL parts is what makes your grow successful by growing Matilda under one cfl (light is just one of the parts , that is most misunderstood) And Lastly I have had a BLAST doing it! Now get your grow on and good luck.


I know this is a long winded thread and I thank you for taking the time to read it, I hope that you found enough info here to make you want to read the thread to fill in the banks, knowing that it will take time but in the end be very worthwhile in helping you to fully understand things. After the class the thread goes on answering question and discussing other things, reading all of it will also be beneficial.

Here are the pics of Matilda,,,,,Enjoy

Keep Em Green and Happy Growing to All
 

Attachments

NuBud335

Active Member
Your post was very helpfull but I'm confused on a few things. Now remember this was a n00b tut so my questions may seem.....simple mined perhaps and I do maybe have the answer but being the noon I want to make sure I have it right. Nutes=nutrients? The others pertain mostly to the watering and just terms mostly. It sounds like the word "flush" means to over water the plant? You said to water until there is "plenty of runoff". The other term related to that is "wicking". If my theory of flushing is correct then is wicking the process in which the plant begins to obsorbe the water.


So then flushing (or drowning? Which is also said to be bad.) puts the plant to "sleep" where it droops. When it awakes it starts to wick the water at a high rate.

Again I'm probably wrong and misunderstood but I also didn't read your journal yet.
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Your post was very helpfull but I'm confused on a few things. Now remember this was a n00b tut so my questions may seem.....simple mined perhaps and I do maybe have the answer but being the noon I want to make sure I have it right. Nutes=nutrients? The others pertain mostly to the watering and just terms mostly. It sounds like the word "flush" means to over water the plant? You said to water until there is "plenty of runoff". The other term related to that is "wicking". If my theory of flushing is correct then is wicking the process in which the plant begins to obsorbe the water.


So then flushing (or drowning? Which is also said to be bad.) puts the plant to "sleep" where it droops. When it awakes it starts to wick the water at a high rate.

Again I'm probably wrong and misunderstood but I also didn't read your journal yet.
Yes nutes = nutrients or fertilizer

Flushing is the act of running 3 times the water as the pot size thru your medium (soil) ie; if you have a 1 gallon pot you flush with 3 gallons of water

Wicking is a slang term describing the transporation process, for wick think oil lamp how the wick goes in the oil and the oil follows it even up out of the oil, for transporation think you and I sweating. these are merely layman explanations to help you understand. The plant actually wicks the water back into the air so it can gather and rain again (outdoors)

to describe, the difference, between flushing (pouring a lot of water thru the pot/medium) and overwatering (watering to frequently without allowing the medium to dry out)

Hope that helps
 

IAm5toned

Well-Known Member
got my vote for a sticky.
that entire post summarized my 10 yrs soil exp in a cpl paragraphs.
tho i will disagree to a point on some of the statements made against organics (mainly in that most people just dont use them right)
you get bigger/better yields with chem, hands down.
but organics work awesome for soil ammending...... which is prettu much making your own slow release nutes.
then its a matter of using chem to supplement micronuntes & boost npk in flowering
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
got my vote for a sticky.
that entire post summarized my 10 yrs soil exp in a cpl paragraphs.
tho i will disagree to a point on some of the statements made against organics (mainly in that most people just dont use them right)
you get bigger/better yields with chem, hands down.
but organics work awesome for soil ammending...... which is prettu much making your own slow release nutes.
then its a matter of using chem to supplement micronuntes & boost npk in flowering
Agree most folks don't use organics right, my point was not against it, rather that it is possible to damage the myco's in the soil with chem ferts and additives, also that making it rain on organic soil takes away your "total" control over the grow and how your feeding as different levels of nutes are available from the organics
 

NuBud335

Active Member
So wicking is the plant obsorbing the water and releasing it into the air (or returning). That clears up the reason why you said to give it the nutes when it's almost done wicking becaus the plant will suck it right in along with the rest of the water. So do you flush it everytime you water it? And this flush/wick process is just for speeding up the growth of the plant? Thanks for clearing some of thinstuff up
 

villian13

Member
in the noob defence- me being a semi noob atleast 2 this site.i understand about all the info out there & how people dont look up things before they ask q's,me ,i ask q's before things go south w\ my plants.there is alot of reading on here,but what is good & bad i dont want my plants 2 suffer 4.i try 2 ask q's so i get up 2 date info,not cause im try'n 2 take a short cut or bother people,i dont want 2 be a bother-im here 2 learn just like everyone else.nice reading above.
 

Trivial

Member
Hey riddleme, I am about to start growing in a 78"H x 48"W x 24" D grow cabinet I built. I will be using a 400w MH HID and several CFLs for lighting. I have built a dwc hydroponic system; will be using co2 as well; and will be using hydroton as my medium. My nutes are fox farm. Growing three strains: Barney's Farm LSD, Afghan Kush, and Lemon Haze.

My goal is to grow a few plants as big as possible for the space provided. I just started germinating the seeds yesterday. How many plants should I grow in that amount of space to get maximum yield? Also any input or advice is welcome. Thanks for helping out a first time grower.
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Hey riddleme, I am about to start growing in a 78"H x 48"W x 24" D grow cabinet I built. I will be using a 400w MH HID and several CFLs for lighting. I have built a dwc hydroponic system; will be using co2 as well; and will be using hydroton as my medium. My nutes are fox farm. Growing three strains: Barney's Farm LSD, Afghan Kush, and Lemon Haze.

My goal is to grow a few plants as big as possible for the space provided. I just started germinating the seeds yesterday. How many plants should I grow in that amount of space to get maximum yield? Also any input or advice is welcome. Thanks for helping out a first time grower.
I don't do hydro, so for me I would only have 2 plants in that space, plus you are already going against most of my advice using CO2 (which is a waste of time in that space IMO) and mixing strains (as they will all respond and react differently, affecting your grow and your yields)

So I'm gonna do the best thing I can do for you by giving you these links

First this was Mammoths thread (he is no longer with us) Really good thread with lots of good info, plus his last grow there was a Barneys LSD which got way out hand in his space (why I'm sharing the link)
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/181208-my-stealth-cabinet-grow-journals.html

The rest of these are still here and you can learn from them as well as ask them questions, I am giving you folks that do hydro :bigjoint:

This is a link to Cruzers grow, great info, and a lot of good ideas on DIY stuff, busy thread lot of folks follow it
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/210479-dual-areoponic-cabinet-ceramic-metal.html

This is my GoofyGolfers thread, he just had a harvest, good solid grow to follow plus he participated in my game/class
https://www.rollitup.org/dwc-bubbleponics/306082-welcome-goofys-garden.html

and lastly Shrubs 2nd grow here, he has a degree in horticulture and really knows this stuff
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/296268-controlled-environment-agriculture-shrubs.html

I hope this helps
 

gumball

Well-Known Member
hey riddleme, will you take a look at my signature journal and give me your opinion on my dilemna? I dont want to post a whole bunch here and ask that way. I would really value your opinion on my situation. thanks, and either way I will take a toke for the both of us! :bigjoint:
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Your very welcome Gumball, best of luck!

I was going to close the poll but it won't let me, doesn't seem to be that much interest?
 

jumboSWISHER

Well-Known Member
hey riddle, ive been reading around but i wus wondering if u know of a thread tht explains how to get usable seeds from a hermi plant. im jus not sure how to tell when the seeds are done (not really worried bout buds ya kno lol) and if i need to do anything speacial while drying/curing to ensure they will sprout.
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
hey riddle, ive been reading around but i wus wondering if u know of a thread tht explains how to get usable seeds from a hermi plant. im jus not sure how to tell when the seeds are done (not really worried bout buds ya kno lol) and if i need to do anything speacial while drying/curing to ensure they will sprout.
Nothing special just need to let em go till they are mature, takes a couple of more weeks and best way I know is to "test" a small bud (calax) every few days till you find well formed mature seeds, dark with the stripes like you should be used to seeing (they are white when young)

then just dry em out and you can still smoke the bud and it will still be good
 

Danielsgb

Well-Known Member
Hey Riddleme,
Thought I'd bump this up for ya. TONS of useful info.
I'm going to add some Grandmas molasses to my next watering. Is it OK to mix with my other nutes, or better on its own?
Daniels
P.S How's my journal update with new pics look? (Day 25)
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Hey Riddleme,
Thought I'd bump this up for ya. TONS of useful info.
I'm going to add some Grandmas molasses to my next watering. Is it OK to mix with my other nutes, or better on its own?
Daniels
P.S How's my journal update with new pics look? (Day 25)

Yes it is ok to mix molasses and nutes just need to know that both will reduce ph so ya gotta pay attention to it, remembering also that molasses is more beneficial to the soil than the plant
 

Danielsgb

Well-Known Member
Yes it is ok to mix molasses and nutes just need to know that both will reduce ph so ya gotta pay attention to it, remembering also that molasses is more beneficial to the soil than the plant
I mixed some up (tsp/gal) and I'll let it mellow a couple days. I'll have to wait a bit cause today I fed my girls Miracid (thx for you and UB's advice) :joint:
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
I mixed some up (tsp/gal) and I'll let it mellow a couple days. I'll have to wait a bit cause today I fed my girls Miracid (thx for you and UB's advice) :joint:
If you mix up a batch of nutes and let it sit for a day or two, be sure and re-check the ph before using it as it will change/fluctuate
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Here lately it seems that is a lot of similar threads that keep getting repeated. I have posted in several lately, they just keep commin. If folks would just take a bit of time to research and read there is so much info available.

That being said,,,,,,,,,,,

lets talk about a fan on your plants making the stems stronger?

This is yet another myth but like all the ones we have previously covered/busted there is truth in this one as well

The benefit of a fan circulating air in your indoor garden is that it prevents several diseases known as Damping Off, here is a quote from another site defining/explaining them,,,,,,,,,,,,

The single term used to describe underground, soil line, or crown rots of seedlings due to unknown causes is damping-off . The term actually covers several soil borne diseases of plants and seed borne fungi.
Rhizoctonia root rot (Rhizoctonia solani) is a fungal disease which causes damping-off of seedlings and foot rot of cuttings. Infection occurs in warm to hot temperatures and moderate moisture levels. The fungi is found in all natural soils and can survive indefinitely. Infected plants often have slightly sunken lesions on the stem at or below the soil line. Transfer of the fungi to the germination room or greenhouse is easily accomplished by using outdoor gardening tools inside or vice versa. The germination room should not be used for mixing potting soils or transplanting seedlings as a general rule.
Pythium Root Rot (Pythium spp.) is similar to Rhizoctonia in that it causes damping-off of seedlings and foot rot of cuttings. However, infection occurs in cool, wet, poorly-drained soils, and by overwatering. Infection results in wet odorless rots. When severe, the lower portion of the stem can become slimy and black. Usually, the soft to slimy rotted outer portion of the root can be easily separated from the inner core. Species of Pythium can survive for several years in soil and plant refuse.
Phytophthora root rot (Phytophthora spp.) are usually associated with root rots of established plants but are also involved in damping-off. These species enter the root tips and cause a water-soaked brown to black rot similar to Pythium. These fungi survive indefinitely in soil and plant debris.
Black root rot (Thielaviopsis basicola) is a problem of established plants. It does not occur in strongly acid soils with a pH of 4.5 to 5.5. It usually infects the lateral roots where they just emerge from the taproot. The diseased area turns dark brown, and is quite dry. The fungi survive for 10 years or more in soil.
Miscellaneous fungi causing similar symptoms include Sclerotinia (white mold), Sclerotium rolfsii, Macrophomina phaseoli, some species of Botrytis (gray mold), Aphonomyces, Fusarium, Cylindrocladium, and others. Hence the need for the collective term known as damping-off. Symptoms of Damping-off:


Seeds may be infected as soon as moisture penetrates the seed coat or a bit later as the radicle begins to extend, all of which rot immediately under the soil surface (pre-emergence damping-off). This condition results in a poor, uneven stand of seedlings, often confused with low seed viability. Cotyledons may break the soil surface only to whither and die or healthy looking seedlings may suddenly fall over (post-emergence damping-off). Infection results in lesions at or below the soil line. The seedling will discolor or wilt suddenly, or simply collapse and die. Weak seedlings are especially susceptible to attack by one or more fungi when growing conditions are only slightly unfavorable. Damping-off is easily confused with plant injury caused by insect feeding, excessive fertilization, high levels of soluble salts, excessive heat or cold, excessive or insufficient soil moisture, or chemical toxicity in air or soil.
Above ground symptoms of root rot include stunting, low vigor, or wilting on a warm day. Foliage of such plants may yellow and fall prematurely starting with the oldest leaves. The roots of a diseased plant will have some shade of brown or black and evidence of water-soaking. Healthy roots are fibrous appearing and are usually white or tan in color. These symptoms are easily confused with severe mite, aphid, scale infestations, or root-feeding by nematodes or insect larvae. Environmental factors such as accumulated salts in the soil, insufficient light or nitrogen, potbound roots, cold drafts, etc. can be eliminated only by examination of the roots. Damping-off diseases can be prevented:

  • Purchase disease free plants and seeds. Know your supplier. Do not be afraid of fungicidal coatings on seeds which will be direct sown out doors in cold soils, such as corn and peas. Seed borne disease can also be avoided by soaking the seeds for 15 minutes in a bleach soak (one teaspoon per quart of water) prior to sowing.
  • Use sterile well drained soil mediums. See article on soil mixes. Try to maintain a soil mix pH at the low end of the average scale, i.e. 6.4 pH is less susceptible to root rot than a pH of 7.5. Commercially prepared germination mixes usually have a pH around 5.5. As you water the seed pots and your seedlings with tap water (which in many municipalities is quite alkaline), the pH in your pots gradually increases as does the susceptibility to damping-off diseases. Know the pH of your tap water, and condition it if necessary to maintain a lower pH while the plants are still in the germination room. I prefer the use of vinegar at the rate of one tablespoon per gallon of water.
  • Plants must not have their crowns below the soil line. Seeds must not be covered more than 4 times the thickness of the seed.
  • Use plant containers with drainage holes, water from the bottom only, and avoid excess watering. Do not allow pots to stand in water as excess water cannot drain and the roots will be starved for oxygen bringing all growth to a halt.
  • Avoid overcrowding and overfeeding of plants. It is important to maintain constant levels of growth through proper lighting and complete control of the growing environment.
  • Avoid working with plants (taking cuttings or transplanting) when the soil is wet. Do not use water from ditches or drainage ponds or rain barrels in the germination room.
  • Avoid spreading soil from infested areas or tools which have been used out of doors. Disinfect tools and containers with one part bleach in four parts water or with 70 percent rubbing alcohol (isopropyl).
  • In the germination room, sow all your seeds on the surface of the media, then cover the seeds to necessary depth with a material which is less likely to harbor fungi than the media itself. Use one or more of the following seed toppings instead of soil mix:
    • milled sphagnum moss
    • chick grit
    • course sand or fine aquarium gravel
    • composted hardwood bark (steamed)
  • In the germination room, mist seedlings in communal pots or flats once or twice per day with water containing a known anti-fungal agent such as:
    • Captan (or other approved fungicide) especially if walls or floors are damp, or
    • Cheshunt compound, a copper/aluminum formulation, or
    • chamomile tea, or
    • clove tea, or
    • a one-time light dusting of powdered cinnamon on the soil surface, or
    • a one-time light dusting of powdered charcoal on the soil surface, or
    • if stinging nettle is endemic in your area, make a fermented infusion to use like clove tea. These last five actions are suggested by sufficient anecdotal evidence to prove the existence of a low level of fungicidal activity. I would not hesitate to use them in germination environments which have no history of damping-off diseases.
  • Rotate plantings on a 2 to 3 year schedule using plants from different families in order to starve out existing pathogens.
  • Provide constant air movement not tied in with the light timer. Air should move freely 24 hours per day, but not directly aimed at the plants. This helps the seedlings to aspirate, and excess soil moisture to wick. If you do everything else right but do not provide plenty of air movement, you will still get damping-off.
Now I couldn't say it any better than that and there is yet another benefit of the top layer of soil being dried by air circulation it will show you whether or not there is salt building up in your soil the edges will have a white or yellowish dried powder look to them If this happens do not water or flush but rather remove the top 1/4 inch layer of soil and discard it without replacing it, we do not want those dried salts going deeper into the soil.

Hope this helps everyone to understand why a fan is beneficial to healthy stem growth
 

Danielsgb

Well-Known Member
I need to get a good, cheap Ph tester. I have a POS one. Any recommendation? I'm gonna feed some molasses with the next watering. Mixing with nutes is something to experiment with later. I gotta get mine growing good. I always use my mixes within a day (or I feed them to a random houseplant). When the Hippie Gardener has a good 150 :rolleyes: there's always one or two to pick from.
Daniels
Did you see the story of the grow shop I checked out yesterday in my grow journal?
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
I also found this little ditty in my research travels and thought I would share it with you as the next thing I am goint to talk about is leaves being shaded from light. So before I go there it is important to better understand exactly how plants see/use light and this a really good article about it. Even though I have already covered this info in my NooB Advice thread I thought it a good idea to repeat it here.

Enjoy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Light and Plants
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Watts, Lumens, Photons and Lux[/FONT]
As the importance of artificial light in the plant growing industry has increased, lamp manufacturers have begun to rate lamps specifically for plant needs.This article discusses and compares the different measures of " light level" that are currently used for plant growth and hydroponic applications. Light level is one of the important variables for optimizing plant growth, others being light quality, water, carbon dioxide, nutrients and environmental factors. The appendix describes a step-by-step approach to developing a simple lighting layout using the PAR watt ratings of light sources.
In recent years, it has become increasingly cost-effective to use artificial lights for assisting plant growth. Lighting costs and lamps have become less expensive, and very efficient light sources are now available in high wattages. These developments along with the ability to preserve and transport plants and produce as well as special new products in demand today have resulted in a lucrative market for hydroponic products, that is, products grown without soil.
Artificial light can be used for plant growth in three different ways:
    1. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To provide all the light a plant needs to grow[/FONT]
    2. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To supplement sunlight, especially in winter months when daylight hours are short.[/FONT]
    3. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To increase the length of the "day" in order to trigger specific growth and flowering.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]back to top[/FONT]
PAR and Plant Response Curve
Just as humans need a balanced diet, plants need balanced, full-spectrum light for good health and optimum growth. The quality of light is as important as quantity. Plants are sensitive to a similar portion of the spectrum as is the human eye. This portion of the light spectrum is referred to as photosynthetically active radiation or PAR, namely about 400 to 700 nanometers in wavelength. Nevertheless, plant response within this region is very different from that of humans.
The human eye has a peak sensitivity in the yellow-green region, around 550 nanometers. This is the "optic yellow" color used for highly visible signs and objects. Plants, on the other hand, respond more effectively to red light and to blue light, the peak being in the red region at around 630 nanometers. The graphs below show the human eye response curve and the plant response curve. Note the vast difference in the contours.
In the same way fat provides the most efficient calories for humans, red light provides the most efficient food for plants. However, a plant illuminated only with red or orange light will fail to develop sufficient bulk. Leafy growth (vegetative growth) and bulk also require blue light. Many other complex processes are triggered by light required from different regions of the spectrum. The correct portion of the spectrum varies from species to species. However, the quantity of light needed for plant growth and health can be measured, assuming that all portions of the spectrum are adequately covered. Light for plants cannot, however, be measured with the same standards used to measure light for humans. Some basic definitions and distinctions follow that are useful in determining appropriate ways to measure the quantity of light for hydroponic plant growth.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]back to top[/FONT]
Measuring Light for Humans: Lumens and Lux
First, how do we measure light quantity for humans? The obvious way is based on how bright the source appears and how "well" the eye sees under the light. Since the human eye is particularly sensitive to yellow light, more weight is given to the yellow region of the spectrum and the contributions from blue and red light are largely discounted. This is the basis for rating the total amount of light emitted by a source in lumens.
The light emitted from the source is then distributed over the area to be illuminated. The illumination is measured in "lux", a measurement of how many lumens falls on each square meter of surface. An illumination of 1000 lux implies that 1000 lumens are falling on each square meter of surface. Similarly, "foot-candles" is the term for the measure of how many lumens are falling on each square foot of surface.
Clearly, both lumens and lux (or foot-candles) refer specifically to human vision and not to the way plants see light.
How then should the rating for plant lighting be accomplished? There are two basic approaches to develop this rating: measuring energy or counting photons.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]back to top[/FONT]
PAR Watts for Plants
Watts is an objective measure of energy being used or emitted by a lamp each second. Energy itself is measured in joules, and 1 joule per second is called a watt. A 100 watt incandescent bulb uses up 100 joules of electrical energy every second. How much light energy is it generating? About 6 joules per second or 6 watts, but the efficiency of the lamp is only 6%, a rather dismal number. The rest of the energy is dissipated mainly as heat. Modern discharge lamps like high pressure sodium (HPS) and metal halide convert (typically) 30% to 40% of the electrical energy into light. They are significantly more efficient than incandescent bulbs.
Since plants use energy between 400 and 700 nanometers and light in this region is called Photosynthetically Active Radiation or PAR, we could measure the total amount of energy emitted per second in this region and call it PAR watts. This is an objective measure in contrast to lumens which is a subjective measure since it is based on the response of the subjects (humans). PAR watts directly indicates how much light energy is available for plants to use in photosynthesis.
The output of a 400 watt incandescent bulb is about 25 watts of light, a 400 watt metal halide bulb emits about 140 watts of light. If PAR is considered to correspond more or less to the visible region, then a 400 watt metal halide lamp provides about 140 watts ofPAR. A 400 watt HPS lamps has less PAR, typically 120 to 128 watts, but because the light is yellow it is rated at higher lumens (for the human eye).
"Illumination" for plants is measured in PAR watts per square meter. There is no specific name for this unit but it is referred to as "irradiance" and written, for example, as 25 watts/square meter or 25 w/m2.
Photons
Another means of measuring light quantity for plant growth involves the understanding that light is always emitted or absorbed in discrete packets called "photons." These packets or photons are the minimum units of energy transactions involving light. For example, if a certain photosynthetic reaction occurs through absorption of one photon of light, then it is sensible to determine how many photons are falling on the plant each second. Also, since only photons in the PAR region of the spectrum are active in creating photosynthesis, it makes sense to limit the count to PAR photons. A lamp could be rated on how many actual tiny photons it is emitting each second. At present no lamp manufacturer does this rating.
Instead, plant biologists and researchers prefer to talk of the flux of photons falling each second on a surface. This is the basis of PPF PAR with PPF standing for Photosynthetic Photon Flux, a process which actually counts the number of photons falling per second on one square meter of surface. Since photons are very small, the count represents a great number of photons per second, but the number does provide a meaningful comparison.
Another measure appropriate for plant growth, called YPF PAR or Yield Photon Flux, takes into account not only the photons but also how effectively they are used by the plant. Since red light (or red photons) are used more effectively to induce a photosynthesis reaction, YPF PAR gives more weight to red photons based on the plant sensitivity curve.
Since photons are very small packets of energy, rather than referring to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 photons, scientists conventionally use the figure "1.7 micromoles of photons" designated by the symbol "µmol." A µmol stands for 6 x 1017 photons; 1 mole stands for 6 x 1023 photons. Irradiance (or illumination) is therefore measured in watts per square meter or inmicromoles (of photons) per square meter per second, abbreviated as µmol.m-2.s-1
The unit "einstein" is sometimes used to refer to one mole per square meter per second. It means that each second a 1 square meter of surface has 6 x 1023 photons falling on it. Irradiance levels for plant growth can therefore be measured in micro-einsteins or in PAR watts/sq. meter.
These three measures of photosynthetically active radiation, PAR watts per square meter, PPF PAR and YPF PAR are all legitimate, although different, ways of measuring the light output of lamps for plant growth. They do not involve the human eye response curve which is irrelevant for plants. Since plant response does "spill out" beyond the 400 nanometer and 700 nanometer boundaries, some researchers refer to the 350 – 750 nanometer region as the PAR region. Using this expanded region will lead to mildly inflated PAR ratings compared to the more conservative approach in this discussion. However, the difference is small.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]back to top[/FONT]
Photosynthesis and Photomorphogenesis
Plants receiving insufficient light levels produce smaller, longer (as compared to wide) leaves and have lower overall weight. Plants receiving excessive amounts of light can dry up, develop extra growing points, become bleached through the destruction of chlorophyll, and display other symptoms of excessive stress. Plants are also damaged by excessive heat (infrared) radiation or extreme ultraviolet (UV) radiation.
Within the acceptable range, however, plants respond very well to light with their growth rate being proportional to irradiance levels. The relative quantum efficiency is a measure of how likely each photon is to stimulate a photosynthetic chemical reaction. The curve of relative quantum efficiency versus wavelength is called the plant photosynthetic response curve as shown earlier in this section.
It is also possible to plot a curve showing the effectiveness of energy in different regions of the spectrum in producing photosynthesis. The fact that blue photons contain more energy than red photons would need to be taken into account, and the resulting curve could be programmed into photometry spheres to directly measure "plant lumens" of light sources instead of "human lumens." This is likely to happen at some point in the future. In fact, manufacturers like Venture Lighting International provide PAR watt ratings for their Sunmaster line of lamps designed for the plant growth market.
The main ingredient in plants that is responsible for photosynthesis is chlorophyll. Some researchers extracted chlorophyll from plants and studied its response to different wavelengths of light, believing that this response would be identical to the photosynthetic response of plants. However, it is now known that other compounds (carotenoids and phycobilins) also result in photosynthesis. The plant response curve, therefore, is a complex summation of the responses of several pigments and is somewhat different for different plants. An average is generally used which represents most plants, although individual plants may vary by as much as 25% from this curve. While HPS and incandescent lamps are fixed in their spectral output, metal halide lamps are available in a broad range of color temperatures and spectral outputs. With this in mind, the discriminating grower can choose a lamp that provides the best spectral output for his specific needs.
In addition to photosynthesis which creates material growth, several other plant actions (such as germination, flowering, etc.) are triggered by the presence or absence of light. These functions, broadly classified as photomorphogenesis, do not depend much on intensity but on the presence of certain types of light beyond threshold levels. Photomorphogenesis is controlled by receptors known as phytochrome, cryptochrome, etc., and different plant functions are triggered in response to infra red, blue or UV light.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]back to top[/FONT]
Summary
Plants "see" light differently than human beings do. As a result, lumens, lux or footcandles should not be used to measure light for plant growth since they are measures used for human visibility. More correct measures for plants are PAR watts, PPF PAR and YPF PAR, although each in itself does not tell the whole story. In addition to quantity of light, considerations of quality are important, since plants use energy in different parts of the spectrum for critical processes.
APPENDIX:
Designing a Simple Lighting Layout
Step 1. Determine required irradiance levels in PAR watts/square meter
What is a "good" level of lighting for plant growth? This level depends on a number of factors, including plant type, stage of growing cycle, response to increased light levels, among others. Recommendations offered in technical brochures or articles should be treated as rough guidelines. Within a broad range, plants grow faster with more light; therefore the cost of electrical power versus the benefit of faster or higher growth plays a role.
Since lamp to lamp variations, light depreciation over life, fixture degradation from dirt and line voltage fluctuations all contribute to variability, calculating to three decimal places is unnecessary!
As an example, if a specific technical brochure recommends a PPF PAR irradiance of
400 µmol.m-2.s-1for your plants, the table below shows that you need approximately 85 PAR watts/square meter. The conversion factors between PPF PAR, PAR Watts and lux depend on the light source. For example, a 400 watt HPS lamp has more lumens than a 400 watt metal halide lamp but fewer PAR Watts. Depending on the color temperature of the metal halide lamp, there can be small variations in the conversion factors.
The table below provides a general guideline for metal halide light sources. Conversion factors for HPS sources are similar except that about 10% higher lux or foot-candle levels are required to achieve the same PAR watts/square meter.
Conversion factors for typical metal halide sources
Typical lighting level (can vary widely based on application)PAR Watts/sq. meter watts-m-2
Micro-einsteins or µ-mol-m-2.s-1
Lux lumens- m-2
Foot-candles lumens- ft-2
DarkVariableVariableVariableVariableLow221006,000550Medium4520012,0001100High7535021,0001900Very High13560036,0003300
For a more technical discussion of the conversion factors among various types of light sources, refer to Langhans and Tibbits, "Plant Growth Chamber Handbook", North Central Regional Research Publication No. 340, Iowa State University (1997). Be aware, that as technology has improved and efficiency of light sources has advanced, the numbers given there are somewhat outdated. Additionally, the article refers to metal halide as one standard light source with a specific spectral output. In reality, metal halide is a generic name, and almost any kind of spectral output can be provided from a custom designed metal halide lamp.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]back to top[/FONT]
Step 2. Next calculate (or measure) the area you wish to illuminate in square meters.
Example: For a 12 meter x 6 meter area, this = 72 sq. meters.
Step 3. Area x required PAR watts per square meter = total PAR watts required
Total PAR watts required = 85 PAR watts/sq. meter x 72 sq. meters = 6120 PAR watts
Step 4. Estimate PAR watts required at source (typically 50% higher than in step 3)
If half the light is lost in the fixture, walls, etc. twice as many PAR watts are needed from the source. If 1/3rd of the light is lost (a reasonable estimate for most cases), then 50% more PAR watts are needed from the sources (lamps) than the figure calculated in step (3).
Therefore (1.5) x 6120 =9180 PAR watts.
Step 5. Select a lamp of appropriate wattage (e.g. 400 watt, 1000 watt, etc) and calculate its PAR watt rating.
A 400 watt lamp may have 140 PAR watts, a 1000 watt lamp may have 380 (or 420) PAR watts. Higher wattages mean fewer fixtures and are therefore more economical; however they lead to greater variations in light level. Be alert for the phenomenon of photomapping where plants in areas of higher illumination grow taller than those in darker areas, essentially mapping out the irradiance contour for the area! For purposes of this example, we will select a 1000 watt lamp with 400 PAR watts.
Remember that these lamp ratings refer to initial light values, and all light sources depreciate over the life of the lamp. If you are designing to average or maintained light levels, start at 20% to 30% higher. Be sure to relamp before the depreciation reaches an unacceptable light level.
Step 6. Calculate the total number of lamps (or fixtures) needed
To determine the total number of lamps required, divide the total source PAR watts needed by the PAR watts per lamp 9180/400 =22.95. For this sample calculation, the number is approximately 23 or 24 fixtures.
Step 7. Use a Grid to Design Your Fixture Layout
A square grid or a "staggered" grid may be used to minimize light level variations across the growing area. For example, 24 fixtures can be shown on a 6 x 4 grid or on an 8 x 3 grid. Remember, the higher the ceiling height, the more space is possible between the fixtures. If you find that there will be too many "dark" areas in the regions between fixtures, you may choose a lower wattage lamp and increase the number of fixtures.
The truth about shade leaves comming soon,,,,,,,,,,
 
Top