I
Illegal Smile
Guest
Of course I'm biased, but I really don't think Obama and the dems are coming off too well. Behind the noise of the talking points, the impression is being given that Obama wants republicans to agree that this bill will be passed and all that should be discussed is what fine tuning it should get. Republican arguments that the bill is flawed in so many ways it can't be a starting point are brushed aside as off topic.
This makes sense politically but it isn't what the people want to hear. The people think it's important to get it right and take the time needed to ensure that. Instead they are seeing Obama say - this is what I want America, now stop being obstructionist.
Democrats have had twice as much speaking time as republicans and when asked why Obama says his time doesn't count because he is the president. There ya go.
This makes sense politically but it isn't what the people want to hear. The people think it's important to get it right and take the time needed to ensure that. Instead they are seeing Obama say - this is what I want America, now stop being obstructionist.
Democrats have had twice as much speaking time as republicans and when asked why Obama says his time doesn't count because he is the president. There ya go.
jeffchr
Well-Known Member
wrong, as is the norm
jeffchr
Well-Known Member
talk to anyone on medicare and ask them how they like it. ask them who makes decisions about their healthcare. ask them if they'd like to drop their medicare and buy insurance from a corporation. ask anyone. and then when you get your answers, picture that plan expanded for the rest of the country, or at least the 30 mil who don't have any insurance at all.
i can't imagine having something (like healthcare) and hating everyone who didn't have the same thing. lining my pocket at their expense of lives.
you righties have bought a bill of goods from the insurance companies, and their puppets in Congress. the talking points are outright lies on the right.
and what is your objection to the individual mandate? are you without insurance? if so, how do you pay your medical bills?
and if you are insured then the individual mandate will not impact you at all.
I
Illegal Smile
Guest
It's dead in the water. Now we get to see how well Obama can spin as he tries to explain that the watered down bill that the voters will accept is really a great legislative victory.
Fungus Gnat
Well-Known Member
Looks like it's pointing more towards passing through reconciliation so they will only need 51 votes. Which is the best chance for a public option passing.
I'm curious as to where all these deficit hawks were when Reagen tripled the debt or during the Bush years? They seem ok with corporate welfare and deficit spending but not for anything to help their fellow Americans.
ChChoda
Well-Known Member
They were at work...making money.
tinyTURTLE
Well-Known Member
...and ignoring all the deficit spending that they agree with.
ChChoda
Well-Known Member
So the government lowers taxes, takes in more tax revenue, coupled with a situation where most people who want a job are working, making money, and you got a problem?
RickWhite
Well-Known Member
This forum is becoming so predictable it is getting boring. Typical accusations of "bigot, homophobe, misogynist," etc. Where is the originality?
I make a comment about the people who would be handling our health care being similar to that of the DMV and of course the comment is misunderstood as if I was talking about the doctors. As if it isn't obvious I was referring to Government employed bureaucrats who will be managing your coverage. Perhaps I should have written it in crayon.
I would like to see some facts about what innovations come from other countries vs the US. What drugs were invented in Cuba? What new surgical procedures? What about new techniques or new technology? Anyone have any data on this?
After all, isn't that the core of the issue? If our system is responsible for all of this and other countries just ride our coat tails, doesn't it make sense that they would have a cost advantage? If we switch to their system, who is going to pick up the torch that we have been running with all this time?
I make a comment about the people who would be handling our health care being similar to that of the DMV and of course the comment is misunderstood as if I was talking about the doctors. As if it isn't obvious I was referring to Government employed bureaucrats who will be managing your coverage. Perhaps I should have written it in crayon.
I would like to see some facts about what innovations come from other countries vs the US. What drugs were invented in Cuba? What new surgical procedures? What about new techniques or new technology? Anyone have any data on this?
After all, isn't that the core of the issue? If our system is responsible for all of this and other countries just ride our coat tails, doesn't it make sense that they would have a cost advantage? If we switch to their system, who is going to pick up the torch that we have been running with all this time?
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
First of all, I'm not a "righty" and I do not "hate everybody". Please do not subscribe my position to me.
I'm a person that doesn't believe in intiating force upon others. Which sometimes puts me at odds with those who worship government, both "lefties" and "righties" depending upon the prayer they want answered via government force, be it to sustain the warfare or the welfare state.
You a "lefty" and "righties" both believe in the same methods, you want government to TAKE from somebody to fulfill YOUR vision of how others should live. I don't.
My objection to the "mandate" is simple. The "health care plan" is an advancement of government FORCE over individual choice. Right now I can have insurance or not, it's MY choice. I like to make MY choices, it's called freedom.
Under the proposed plan government will FORCE people into buying insurance. That's wrong, plain and simple. Or do you think force is acceptable?
It is irrefutable that when force is applied to peaceful people
government has enslaved you.
If you disagree, go ahead...refute my argument. Don''t tell me how wonderful somebody elses choice for me will be...tell me why I can't make my OWN choice. Tell me why I should permit somebody else to run my life when I leave others alone. The truth is, you won't be able to. You will use platitudes and rationalizations about the benefits to cover your cognitive dissonance regarding the true nature of government.
You like many focus on the perceived "good" that government will deliver you, while ignoring the loss of choice.
I say you are reaching for fools gold.
Now to your questions...
I presently have insurance, but that is not the point. Who is government to tell me that I (or anyone) MUST have insurance or they will fine me and ultimately jail me for telling them to fuck off?
How is it I would be a "criminal" for intitiating no harm to anybody? Is that
me "hating others"? No it isn't it is me
doing what others should do...minding my own business and letting others mind theirs.
jeffchr
Well-Known Member
that's pretty much the standard argument against the individual mandate. it is also a disengenuous argument used by the right to stimey insurance reform.
i am inclined to agree with you, on principal. however, the mandate does minimize the free-loaders and it does help with the economics of insurance reform.
sometimes there are competing principals for a given issue and one needs to choose. i choose reform.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
Thank you for responding and keeping things civil.
"...and one needs to choose" Exactly, individuals, YOU for instance, SHOULD be able to make choices that YOU want.
You choose reform. I choose not to participate in reform, or make YOUR choices for you.
I have no objection to you making your choices in life. Why would you ask government to take away mine?
Please answer that question for me.
If you are inclined to agree with me on principle, I urge you not to abandon principle, embrace it. What is better than freedom of choice? You get what you want, I get what I want.
Why is it a disengenous argument, specifically? I'm not understanding your point of view. Gotta go for now, but very interested in how you can advocate choice for you, but not for me. What am I missing? Fill me in.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
Income tax? Okay I'll play along.income tax.
Do you go along with this tax voluntarily or out of fear? Be honest.
Do you believe involuntarily collecting from somebody is just?
Do you pay income taxes so the money will be used to arrest people that attempt to own their own bodies or do you conveniently forget that marijuana prohibition is funded by taxes which are extracted at the point of a gun?
So if you pay taxes voluntarily, YOU are funding prohibition, voluntarily.
If you pay involuntarily, you prove my point that government is first and foremost force.
Oh and by the way, off topic, but some of your plants shown in other threads are kick ass!
tinyTURTLE
Well-Known Member
i don't realy mind taxes. libraries and paved roads are pretty awesome. I also am kinda fond of nuclear attack submarines and medicare and norad and the coast guard (though if you live in a square state i can see how the coast guard would seem unnecesary) and even the FBI.
who said i pay anything?
RickWhite
Well-Known Member
How many people draw benefits from Medicare and how many people pay into it?
Can you not see the Medicare is barely treading water when EVERYONE pays for it and only a handful draw benefits.
And what is this garbage about "hating" people. Why is it everything with you Liberals is a personal attack?
Many of us think health care needs serious reform, but why should we have our earnings confiscated to pay for someone else's free ride?
And mandating insurance will never make it through the courts - it's a silly proposal.
I am for creating a Government group policy through a private carrier such as BCN or HAP that will allow individuals the right to collectively bargain. But, I will be damned if I'm going to work my ass off to pay for someone else to sit on their ass with their hand held out.
BTW, do you make an appreciable income? Would you be one of the people paying or one of the people receiving? I was poor most of my life and I never took a single dime I didn't earn.
jeffchr
Well-Known Member
nothing is perfect. if a mandate is needed to complete a better good, then compromise can be the best answer.
all societies incorporate this fundamental tenet of individual sacrifice for the greater good. you pay taxes, not because you want to, but because the people you elected tell you too. in exchange, the government provides services valued by the majority of the voters.
that is the way it works. there will be things you like and things you don't.
in that sense, i agree. you have a right not too like it.
the individual mandate is an economic necessity in obama's bill. if it passes, then it was passed by a democratic process.