The Never Ending Abuse of Phosphorous (Bloom foods) to Enhance Flowering

[Uncle Ben]

Thanks, UB. I think I was treading a little too lightly, and I didn't think about the pace of the N source. The plant is in soil, BTW - a 50/50 of MG pre-fert and MG Organic. However, when I made the transplant from 2 to 3 gallons, there was surprisingly little room for new soil in there, and she's really blasted off since then (probably used it up already).

Here's a "real analysis" of Foxfarms Grow Big, beyond the simple 6-4-4 given on the label (and yes, that's what I used). It's on page 3 in alphabetical order:

http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/PEST/docs/pdf/lab_2006_1231.pdf

I have some basic MG 24-8-16 on hand; I've seen that stuff work pretty fast before. I also have the Azalea/Rhodo formula - much like the Miracid. I'll give that a try if I don't see improvement soon (at 1/3 strength also, is my thinking..).

With that low of a dose you could be creating an overall nutritional deficiency, especially if your initial soil nutrient charge is gone, which I suspect it is. I'd go with 1 tsp. of the 24-8-16 in rain water if you have it but a 30-10-10 would be better now.

That is a great site. Too bad they don't test "cannabis specific" nutrients. I bet they are all over the place. Some of the results aren't even close to the published claims.

You asked about the availability of the N. The site doesn't give you the N source but upon checking I found it slow reacting from ammonical sources and urea.

As you found out, you're wasting your time going from a 2 to a 3 gallon. Start in a 1 gallon and go to a 3 or 5.

Good luck,
UB

 

[Kriegs]

With that low of a dose you could be creating an overall nutritional deficiency, especially if your initial soil nutrient charge is gone, which I suspect it is. I'd go with 1 tsp. of the 24-8-16 in rain water if you have it but a 30-10-10 would be better now.

That is a great site. Too bad they don't test "cannabis specific" nutrients. I bet they are all over the place. Some of the results aren't even close to the published claims.

You asked about the availability of the N. The site doesn't give you the N source but upon checking I found it slow reacting from ammonical sources and urea.

As you found out, you're wasting your time going from a 2 to a 3 gallon. Start in a 1 gallon and go to a 3 or 5.

Good luck,
UB

Gotcha... all the way around - thanks UB!

=======================================

Added later: turned out, I did have some 30-10-10 Miracid on hand, so that's what she just got -- a soak at 1 tsp / gallon. That should cover her for awhile.

 

[Kriegs]

May-un, is this plant serious?

I could of sworn I saw the chlorosis turning around a day or two after the 30-10-10. But now it seems to be on the march again. It's totally isolated to the big fans on the mainstem. Big fans on side branches are not affected, nor is anything else.

I know you aren't a big fan of HPS light in pic's, but the first one really shows the contrast between the big fans, and the healthy leaves up higher and on ALL the side branches (incl. the very bottom).

Maybe this is just the way this plant goes? She is supposed to be an 8-9 week strain (Nirvana bubblelicious), and we're at 3 weeks flowering (not just since 12/12). I dunno.. I'm not going to start running around like a chicken at this point. It just looks so much like a basic N deficiency that should be easy to turn around.

Could she really have burned thru that 30-10-10 already?

Here's some particulars that might help: 400W HPS / 3 gallon MG soil / plant height = 45" above soil and adding 2-5" a day.

I added a couple pics of the whole plant and the healthy tops. Healthy growth is still the dominant state of this plant.

Any thoughts you want to share are appreciated.

 

[Uncle Ben]

May-un, is this plant serious?

I think you've had a deficiency of N for quite some time. That plant is lacking in foliage.

I don't see the chlorosis - green veins, yellow surrounding leaf tissue on the lower leaves. Taking a photo with lights off and using the flash on your camera would be a big help. A overall yellow cast doesn't allow me to see any contrast.

 

[Kriegs]

I think you've had a deficiency of N for quite some time. That plant is lacking in foliage.

I don't see the chlorosis - green veins, yellow surrounding leaf tissue on the lower leaves. Taking a photo with lights off and using the flash on your camera would be a big help. A overall yellow cast doesn't allow me to see any contrast.

Yeah.. I thought she had a bit of a weird build. Maybe she's just one of those "nute hogs" I see people mention.

Well, shit, the evidence is what it is. She needs more N, I think.

I'll say this, too -- when she got the 30-10-10 feed, a couple days after she went from her usual 2" per day stretch to 4-5"

I think she wants to be an 8-foot canna-tree..

 

[Kriegs]

Here's some natural-light shots of the situation. Almost all the yellowed leaves are the big fans on the mainstem. The healthy green stuff is from the side branches.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Well, that tells the tale. Definately a N deficiency. You've got to stop the premature leaf loss. When a plant is not getting sufficient N to sustain leaf maintenance, it will pull from the old and give to the new, starting at the bottom and working up.

 

[Kriegs]

Well, that tells the tale. Definately a N deficiency. You've got to stop the premature leaf loss. When a plant is not getting sufficient N to sustain leaf maintenance, it will pull from the old and give to the new, starting at the bottom and working up.

Yup.. I didn't see how it could be anything else. She got another dose yesterday, and I plan to give her 30-10-10 every other watering until I see resolution.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Yup.. I didn't see how it could be anything else. She got another dose yesterday, and I plan to give her 30-10-10 every other watering until I see resolution.

Sounds like a good plan.

 

[wyteboi]

Thats what some of my "better" ones looked like kriegs. Ub , dave and even you walked me right through the prob. Mine was more of a nute def, then a n def. but one dose of 24-8-16 all purpose mg fixed it. Just as soon as the dirt started drying out , the one week turn around was amazing. From white, purple and yellow to a dark healthy green. My better ones looked just like yours and i know for sure now it was a n def. I am still tweeking my organic shit, and its comin along nice, but when the plant is hungry it gets what it needs. I suspect that 30-10-10 will perk yours right up.
Thanks again guys.
wb

 

[Kriegs]

Thats what some of my "better" ones looked like kriegs. Ub , dave and even you walked me right through the prob. Mine was more of a nute def, then a n def. but one dose of 24-8-16 all purpose mg fixed it. Just as soon as the dirt started drying out , the one week turn around was amazing. From white, purple and yellow to a dark healthy green. My better ones looked just like yours and i know for sure now it was a n def. I am still tweeking my organic shit, and its comin along nice, but when the plant is hungry it gets what it needs. I suspect that 30-10-10 will perk yours right up.
Thanks again guys.
wb

Thanks for the input and endorsement of my approach... both UB and wyteboi..

I'm still a little surprised at how resistant this plant seems to be to the fix. She's had one dose of MG 30-10-10 at 1 tsp/gal a week ago, the same dose of MG 24-8-16 two days ago, and the yellowing still appears "on the march".

It seems, at some point, the extra P and K that probably aren't needed as much as the N could begin to become a separate problem?

I also notice, too, that MG ferts are primarily urea-based N. Isn't that also slow-acting like ammoniacal N? Anybody make a straight NO3-based product?

I'm concerned from the standpoint that I'd really hoped to "keep it green" from tip to tail. Looks like I might miss that mark. All in all, I think she'll turn out well, but I was aiming for a higher mark this time.

Thanks again...

 

[wyteboi]

Ub will have to take that one ....its mostly outta my league.
I dont think the urea is slow acting though because of the very fast action i seen , i think the urea might "build up" faster then other products , but i am not sure really. I really didnt see any change until they started drying up real good but mine are a lil different. I would pinch those "mostly damaged" leaves off and just expect the higher n to not let the other ones yellow out. I am just kinda scared of salt so if i was to give it 2 doses of balanced/soluble food like that, i would just use strait water after that and just expect the food to work but me being scared of salt is why i started having probs to begin with .......so these are just my opinions and nothing else

wb

 

[seasmoke]

Jacks 20-30-10 doesn't have Urea.

 

[DaveCoulier]

Thanks for the input and endorsement of my approach... both UB and wyteboi..

I'm still a little surprised at how resistant this plant seems to be to the fix. She's had one dose of MG 30-10-10 at 1 tsp/gal a week ago, the same dose of MG 24-8-16 two days ago, and the yellowing still appears "on the march".

It seems, at some point, the extra P and K that probably aren't needed as much as the N could begin to become a separate problem?

I also notice, too, that MG ferts are primarily urea-based N. Isn't that also slow-acting like ammoniacal N? Anybody make a straight NO3-based product?

I'm concerned from the standpoint that I'd really hoped to "keep it green" from tip to tail. Looks like I might miss that mark. All in all, I think she'll turn out well, but I was aiming for a higher mark this time.

Thanks again...

Urea has to be broken down to Ammoniacal N, then its broken down to Nitrate N, so yeah its on the slow side. How slow, Im not sure. I hope your plants turn around soon though.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Thanks for the input and endorsement of my approach... both UB and wyteboi..

I'm still a little surprised at how resistant this plant seems to be to the fix. She's had one dose of MG 30-10-10 at 1 tsp/gal a week ago, the same dose of MG 24-8-16 two days ago, and the yellowing still appears "on the march".

It seems, at some point, the extra P and K that probably aren't needed as much as the N could begin to become a separate problem?

I also notice, too, that MG ferts are primarily urea-based N. Isn't that also slow-acting like ammoniacal N? Anybody make a straight NO3-based product?

I'm concerned from the standpoint that I'd really hoped to "keep it green" from tip to tail. Looks like I might miss that mark. All in all, I think she'll turn out well, but I was aiming for a higher mark this time.

Thanks again...

I spent an hour or so this morning going over every part of this excellent ditty which included pondering over my water and soil analyses. It is worth printing in case it's taken down. I don't think I've seen a better, more concise approach to plant nutrition. Enjoy.....
http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/culturewater.htm

If the 30-10-10 doesn't green 'em up, something's wrong. Won't happen overnight, but it will happen if you have a decent root system capable of uptake.

UB

 

[DaveCoulier]

I spent an hour or so this morning going over every part of this excellent ditty which included pondering over my water and soil analyses. It is worth printing in case it's taken down. I don't think I've seen a better, more concise approach to plant nutrition. Enjoy.....
http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/culturewater.htm

If the 30-10-10 doesn't green 'em up, something's wrong. Won't happen overnight, but it will happen if you have a decent root system capable of uptake.

UB

Great link UB. I like that its emphasis is on container plants. Lots of good info all in one place. This stuff should be required reading for everyone interested in or already growing. Educate yourself and dont rely on what everyone on the mj forums say. Theres a few smart folks out there, but most people just repeat what someone else said, and really have no clue one way or the other

As I was reading through the parts, I got a little confused from a paragraph in part 4, so I went searching for answers. I found a great article concerning CEC and how Bulk Density affects it. It turns out I already had one of their articles bookmarked. Im gonna have to go back and start exploring more of their site. The articles titled Understanding Plant Nutrition is great stuff. Ive only read the one below. Can't wait to read the rest.

http://www.greenhousegrower.com/magazine/?storyid=47

I already understood CEC in container gardening wasn't very important for other reasons, now I understand even more how unimportant it is.

 

[DaveCoulier]

I found this in part 5 of the articles.


Do orchids require high phosphorus
fertilizers?
A) Phosphorus is needed by the plant to store and
transport chemical and light energy. Although there is
no specific research, it appears that applying between
10 and 20 ppm phosphorus with every irrigation will
supply enough phosphorus to a plant (any plant, not just
orchids) for normal growth and flowering. Once this
sufficient level is reached, then there is not any
particular benefit to applying any more phosphorus.
Thus in this case, there is no benefit to using a high
phosphorus fertilizer.

You can't see it right now, but Im flipping off Bloom Boosters right now . I actually have thought about flowering using only veg nutes, just to see how it'd go. Turns out they've been doing it for quite some time now.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Thanks for the input and endorsement of my approach... both UB and wyteboi..

I'm still a little surprised at how resistant this plant seems to be to the fix. She's had one dose of MG 30-10-10 at 1 tsp/gal a week ago, the same dose of MG 24-8-16 two days ago, and the yellowing still appears "on the march".

It seems, at some point, the extra P and K that probably aren't needed as much as the N could begin to become a separate problem?

I also notice, too, that MG ferts are primarily urea-based N. Isn't that also slow-acting like ammoniacal N? Anybody make a straight NO3-based product?

I'm concerned from the standpoint that I'd really hoped to "keep it green" from tip to tail. Looks like I might miss that mark. All in all, I think she'll turn out well, but I was aiming for a higher mark this time.

Thanks again...

I found this in part 5 of the articles.


Do orchids require high phosphorus
fertilizers?
A) Phosphorus is needed by the plant to store and
transport chemical and light energy. Although there is
no specific research, it appears that applying between
10 and 20 ppm phosphorus with every irrigation will
supply enough phosphorus to a plant (any plant, not just
orchids) for normal growth and flowering. Once this
sufficient level is reached, then there is not any
particular benefit to applying any more phosphorus.
Thus in this case, there is no benefit to using a high
phosphorus fertilizer.

You can't see it right now, but Im flipping off Bloom Boosters right now . I actually have thought about flowering using only veg nutes, just to see how it'd go. Turns out they've been doing it for quite some time now.

Good link. I'll check it out over a cup of java manana. Thanks.

Yeah, do the experiment.

 

[DaveCoulier]

I just saw that the Understanding Plant Nutrition is also written by Bill Argo, so some of the stuff from the orchid site will be repeated in the UPN articles.

 

[Uncle Ben]

I found this in part 5 of the articles.


Do orchids require high phosphorus
fertilizers?
A) Phosphorus is needed by the plant to store and
transport chemical and light energy. Although there is
no specific research, it appears that applying between
10 and 20 ppm phosphorus with every irrigation will
supply enough phosphorus to a plant (any plant, not just
orchids) for normal growth and flowering. Once this
sufficient level is reached, then there is not any
particular benefit to applying any more phosphorus.
Thus in this case, there is no benefit to using a high
phosphorus fertilizer.

How uncanny. I had just gotten ready to post that particular part here and found you had beat me to it.

Here's another really important point, balancing foods with water quality:

First, the ideal fertilizer for any crop, not just
orchids, is one that balances you water quality.
Probably the most important aspect of this comes with
the management of the substrate pH. .......That means that the amount of acidic nitrogen should be balanced by the alkalinity of your irrigation water.

My well water is neutral in pH, but the alkalinity is high (high Ca bicarbs), so, the 21-7-7 that I sometimes use is a good choice.

...and........

In addition, an ideal fertilizer should supply a
sufficient amount of each nutrient for growth. That
means that the nutrients contained in the fertilizer
should complement those supplied by the irrigation
water. If the water does not contain a specific nutrient,
like calcium or magnesium, then it needs to be supplied
by the fertilizer. It also needs to be supplied at a
concentration high enough that it influences plant
growth. For example, some 20-10-20 fertilizer contain
magnesium, but the amount supplied is so low that it
really doesn’t influence the nutrition of the plant.