Socialism is the Root of all Evil

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I believe as long as corporations do not force a person to buy their products or "services" and the consumer can choose freely that is good. Corporations that make a profit are not inherently good or bad. Profit honestly derived is not a bad thing.

Corporations are not individual people, they like government often do not take individual responsibility for the harm they may do. Corporations in cahoots with government are suspect and often evil in my opinion. Get government out of business and business out of government and things will be much better.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Your rationale is lost on these hopeless souls.

Their argument against everything government-run is "all those programs are bankrupt!". Well, they aren't bankrupt but they are certainly not as well-funded as they could be. How are these programs funded? Tax revenue, of course! Why are they running out of funding? Because the financial NEEDS of those programs (which are based on the DEMAND for the services those programs provide) are rising faster than tax revenue totals are rising. DUH! When some 15% of Americans aren't making an income at all, and of the 85% that ARE, only 47% pay any income tax... it's not exactly rocket science, folks.

When are you going to learn that your taxes do not pay for government run programs, your taxes pay for the interest on the national debt. Government BORROWS at interest all the money it needs to operate and provide for all those wonderful social programs.

FWIW until the economy is fixed by drastic measures your going to see demand for social programs that far exceed their funding. Unfortunately you cannot tax people who are not working and taxing the rest of the people who are working 100% will just make them quit their jobs and go it alone.
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
Yep, Taxes go directly to the banks.
I would say that 11.5 trillion in the hole,
With 60-100 trillion in future unfunded obligations is bankrupt.
We can't afford anymore government help.
They'll help us all right into the bread-lines.
 

hom36rown

Well-Known Member
We just need to tax people more...duh! 79% ought to do it, at the rate we'll pay off the debt in 25 years...no sweat
 

Green Cross

Well-Known Member
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level
determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.

On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its
valuables thanks to the local police department.

And then I log on to the internet -- which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration -- and post on Freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.
2. The water local utility isn't run by the federal government either.

3. The weather channel and the TV networks aren't micromanaged by the government either.


Try the post office if you want to see what government service looks like.

Many Americans may be outraged to find out that while the United States Postal Service is facing a $7 billion deficit this year and receiving a $4 billion bailout from Congress
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
When are you going to learn that your taxes do not pay for government run programs, your taxes pay for the interest on the national debt. Government BORROWS at interest all the money it needs to operate and provide for all those wonderful social programs.

FWIW until the economy is fixed by drastic measures your going to see demand for social programs that far exceed their funding. Unfortunately you cannot tax people who are not working and taxing the rest of the people who are working 100% will just make them quit their jobs and go it alone.
As soon as YOU learn that this theory of yours goes both ways.

I can just as easily argue that the government is borrowing money to pay back interest, and spending tax revenues on social programs.

The money the government spends all comes from one big pool of funding, whether it be tax revenue or loans from the Federal Reserve. Unless you have some solid proof that tax revenues are segregated from the rest of the funds and ONLY spent on paying back interest, then you have no argument.

People are going to quit their jobs to avoid paying taxes? That's fucking ridiculous, and if you actually believe it, you're ridiculous too.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
2. The water local utility isn't run by the federal government either.

3. The weather channel and the TV networks aren't micromanaged by the government either.


Try the post office if you want to see what government service looks like.

Many Americans may be outraged to find out that while the United States Postal Service is facing a $7 billion deficit this year and receiving a $4 billion bailout from Congress
When did he say the water utility was run by the federal government? He said quite clearly that water is a municipal service (which means LOCAL government). Whether it's a federal government program or a local government program, it's still a GOVERNMENT program.


Government programs = socialism, right?

Many Americans might be outraged to find that the government is "bailing out" the Postal Service (which, by the way, is a grave misrepresentation of the facts. The government does not "bail out" government programs for which funding is provided solely by the government, it's just called "FUNDING")? How do you figure that? You yourself freely admit that the Postal Service has funding problems, correct? So, how exactly is increasing funding to offset a potential deficit a BAD thing?
 

PVS

Active Member
2. The water local utility isn't run by the federal government either.
they are all still run by local government and regulated by the fed

3. The weather channel and the TV networks aren't micromanaged by the government either.
all regulated by the fcc (though of course thats not always a good thing...jenet jackson's nipple and the subsequent family values overcensorship under the bush admin.)


Try the post office if you want to see what government service looks like.

Many Americans may be outraged to find out that while the United States Postal Service is facing a $7 billion deficit this year and receiving a $4 billion bailout from Congress
emails, electronic banking and bill paying, along with private shipping companies are slowly phasing the usps out. how exactly is this the government's fault?
 

IAm5toned

Well-Known Member
He said what I was going to say, but im not going to take credit for someones words:


By Mark J. Perry • The Freeman • June 1995 • Volume: 45 • Issue: 6

Socialism is the Big Lie of the twentieth century. While it promised prosperity, equality, and security, it delivered poverty, misery, and tyranny. Equality was achieved only in the sense that everyone was equal in his or her misery.

In the same way that a Ponzi scheme or chain letter initially succeeds but eventually collapses, socialism may show early signs of success. But any accomplishments quickly fade as the fundamental deficiencies of central planning emerge. It is the initial illusion of success that gives government intervention its pernicious, seductive appeal. In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery.

A pyramid scheme is ultimately unsustainable because it is based on faulty principles. Likewise, collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it is a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it is not consistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it is a system that ignores incentives.

In a capitalist economy, incentives are of the utmost importance. Market prices, the profit-and-loss system of accounting, and private property rights provide an efficient, interrelated system of incentives to guide and direct economic behavior. Capitalism is based on the theory that incentives matter!

Under socialism, incentives either play a minimal role or are ignored totally. A centrally planned economy without market prices or profits, where property is owned by the state, is a system without an effective incentive mechanism to direct economic activity. By failing to emphasize incentives, socialism is a theory inconsistent with human nature and is therefore doomed to fail. Socialism is based on the theory that incentives don’t matter!

In a radio debate several months ago with a Marxist professor from the University of Minnesota, I pointed out the obvious failures of socialism around the world in Cuba, Eastern Europe, and China. At the time of our debate, Haitian refugees were risking their lives trying to get to Florida in homemade boats. Why was it, I asked him, that people were fleeing Haiti and traveling almost 500 miles by ocean to get to the "evil capitalist empire" when they were only 50 miles from the "workers’ paradise" of Cuba?
The Marxist admitted that many "socialist" countries around the world were failing. However, according to him, the reason for failure is not that socialism is deficient, but that the socialist economies are not practicing "pure" socialism. The perfect version of socialism would work; it is just the imperfect socialism that doesn’t work. Marxists like to compare a theoretically perfect version of socialism with practical, imperfect capitalism which allows them to claim that socialism is superior to capitalism.
If perfection really were an available option, the choice of economic and political systems would be irrelevant. In a world with perfect beings and infinite abundance, any economic or political system–socialism, capitalism, fascism, or communism–would work perfectly.

However, the choice of economic and political institutions is crucial in an imperfect universe with imperfect beings and limited resources. In a world of scarcity it is essential for an economic system to be based on a clear incentive structure to promote economic efficiency. The real choice we face is between imperfect capitalism and imperfect socialism. Given that choice, the evidence of history overwhelmingly favors capitalism as the greatest wealth-producing economic system available.
The strength of capitalism can be attributed to an incentive structure based upon the three Ps: (1) prices determined by market forces, (2) a profit-and-loss system of accounting and (3) private property rights. The failure of socialism can be traced to its neglect of these three incentive-enhancing components.

Prices
The price system in a market economy guides economic activity so flawlessly that most people don’t appreciate its importance. Market prices transmit information about relative scarcity and then efficiently coordinate economic activity. The economic content of prices provides incentives that promote economic efficiency.
For example, when the OPEC cartel restricted the supply of oil in the 1970s, oil prices rose dramatically. The higher prices for oil and gasoline transmitted valuable information to both buyers and sellers. Consumers received a strong, clear message about the scarcity of oil by the higher prices at the pump and were forced to change their behavior dramatically. People reacted to the scarcity by driving less, carpooling more, taking public transportation, and buying smaller cars. Producers reacted to the higher price by increasing their efforts at exploration for more oil. In addition, higher oil prices gave producers an incentive to explore and develop alternative fuel and energy sources.

The information transmitted by higher oil prices provided the appropriate incentive structure to both buyers and sellers. Buyers increased their effort to conserve a now more precious resource and sellers increased their effort to find more of this now scarcer resource.

The only alternative to a market price is a controlled or fixed price which always transmits misleading information about relative scarcity. Inappropriate behavior results from a controlled price because false information has been transmitted by an artificial, non-market price.

Look at what happened during the 1970s when U.S. gas prices were controlled. Long lines developed at service stations all over the country because the price for gasoline was kept artificially low by government fiat. The full impact of scarcity was not accurately conveyed. As Milton Friedman pointed out at the time, we could have eliminated the lines at the pump in one day by allowing the price to rise to clear the market.

From our experience with price controls on gasoline and the long lines at the pump and general inconvenience, we get an insight into what happens under socialism where every price in the economy is controlled. The collapse of socialism is due in part to the chaos and inefficiency that result from artificial prices. The information content of a controlled price is always distorted. This in turn distorts the incentives mechanism of prices under socialism. Administered prices are always either too high or too low, which then creates constant shortages and surpluses. Market prices are the only way to transmit information that will create the incentives to ensure economic efficiency.

Profits and Losses
Socialism also collapsed because of its failure to operate under a competitive, profit-and-loss system of accounting. A profit system is an effective monitoring mechanism which continually evaluates the economic performance of every business enterprise. The firms that are the most efficient and most successful at serving the public interest are rewarded with profits. Firms that operate inefficiently and fail to serve the public interest are penalized with losses.

By rewarding success and penalizing failure, the profit system provides a strong disciplinary mechanism which continually redirects resources away from weak, failing, and inefficient firms toward those firms which are the most efficient and successful at serving the public. A competitive profit system ensures a constant reoptimization of resources and moves the economy toward greater levels of efficiency. Unsuccessful firms cannot escape the strong discipline of the marketplace under a profit/loss system. Competition forces companies to serve the public interest or suffer the consequences.

Under central planning, there is no profit-and-loss system of accounting to accurately measure the success or failure of various programs. Without profits, there is no way to discipline firms that fail to serve the public interest and no way to reward firms that do. There is no efficient way to determine which programs should be expanded and which ones should be contracted or terminated.

Without competition, centrally planned economies do not have an effective incentive structure to coordinate economic activity. Without incentives the results are a spiraling cycle of poverty and misery. Instead of continually reallocating resources towards greater efficiency, socialism falls into a vortex of inefficiency and failure.

Private Property Rights
A third fatal defect of socialism is its blatant disregard for the role of private property rights in creating incentives that foster economic growth and development. The failure of socialism around the world is a "tragedy of commons" on a global scale.

The "tragedy of the commons" refers to the British experience of the sixteenth century when certain grazing lands were communally owned by villages and were made available for public use. The land was quickly overgrazed and eventually became worthless as villagers exploited the communally owned resource.

When assets are publicly owned, there are no incentives in place to encourage wise stewardship. While private property creates incentives for conservation and the responsible use of property, public property encourages irresponsibility and waste. If everyone owns an asset, people act as if no one owns it. And when no one owns it, no one really takes care of it. Public ownership encourages neglect and mismanagement.

Since socialism, by definition, is a system marked by the "common ownership of the means of production," the failure of socialism is a "tragedy of the commons" on a national scale. Much of the economic stagnation of socialism can be traced to the failure to establish and promote private property rights.

As Peruvian economist Hernando de Soto remarked, you can travel in rural communities around the world and you will hear dogs barking, because even dogs understand property rights. It is only statist governments that have failed to understand property rights. Socialist countries are just now starting to recognize the importance of private property as they privatize assets and property in Eastern Europe.

Incentives Matter
Without the incentives of market prices, profit-and-loss accounting, and well-defined property rights, socialist economies stagnate and wither. The economic atrophy that occurs under socialism is a direct consequence of its neglect of economic incentives.

No bounty of natural resources can ever compensate a country for its lack of an efficient system of incentives. Russia, for example, is one of the world’s wealthiest countries in terms of natural resources; it has some of the world’s largest reserves of oil, natural gas, diamonds, and gold. Its valuable farm land, lakes, rivers, and streams stretch across a land area that encompasses 11 time zones. Yet Russia remains poor. Natural resources are helpful, but the ultimate resources of any country are the unlimited resources of its people–human resources.

By their failure to foster, promote, and nurture the potential of their people through incentive-enhancing institutions, centrally planned economies deprive the human spirit of full development. Socialism fails because it kills and destroys the human spirit–just ask the people leaving Cuba in homemade rafts and boats.
As the former centrally planned economies move toward free markets, capitalism, and democracy, they look to the United States for guidance and support during the transition. With an unparalleled 250-year tradition of open markets and limited government, the United States is uniquely qualified to be the guiding light in the worldwide transition to freedom and liberty.

We have an obligation to continue to provide a framework of free markets and democracy for the global transition to freedom. Our responsibility to the rest of the world is to continue to fight the seductiveness of statism around the world and here at home. The seductive nature of statism continues to tempt and lure us into the Barmecidal illusion that the government can create wealth.

The temptress of socialism is constantly luring us with the offer: "give up a little of your freedom and I will give you a little more security." As the experience of this century has demonstrated, the bargain is tempting but never pays off. We end up losing both our freedom and our security.

Programs like socialized medicine, welfare, social security, and minimum wage laws will continue to entice us because on the surface they appear to be expedient and beneficial. Those programs, like all socialist programs, will fail in the long run regardless of initial appearances. These programs are part of the Big Lie of socialism because they ignore the important role of incentives.

Socialism will remain a constant temptation. We must be vigilant in our fight against socialism not only around the globe but also here in the United States.
The failure of socialism inspired a worldwide renaissance of freedom and liberty. For the first time in the history of the world, the day is coming very soon when a majority of the people in the world will live in free societies or societies rapidly moving towards freedom.

Capitalism will play a major role in the global revival of liberty and prosperity because it nurtures the human spirit, inspires human creativity, and promotes the spirit of enterprise. By providing a powerful system of incentives that promote thrift, hard work, and efficiency, capitalism creates wealth.

The main difference between capitalism and socialism is this: Capitalism works.
 

medicineman

New Member
So essentially, you are just a common criminal and perhaps a terrorist. No wonder you feel entitled to other people's money. I'll be sure to {froward} this to the FBI. What the fuck is froward,? Is it anything like sucking dick
I wish you would try to come over here and take my shit. My cowboy hat and boots are shined up and waiting for you.
Oh, so you are a snitch then? A cowboy at that. What a hypocrite. As in I've got mine fuck you. The world will be much better off when your kind are gone. You know Rick, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.
 

medicineman

New Member
i would. just piss on the parts that aren't burning. :hump:
Lol, maybe pour on some gasoline. My question is: how do people get so maniacle as a Rick Whine? Do they worship the devil, or pure evil? Gonna turn me into the FBI, Snitch, snitch, snitch. WTF, I already have a large portfolio with them, go ahead and add a few lines. They know where I live. I'm already on the terrorists list at the airports, I have no clue why.
 

PVS

Active Member
yeah, its a weird move to enthusiastically threaten to snitch someone out on a pot growing forum. really not a way to make friends of any political persuasion considering why we're all here. oh well *shrug*
 
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