LED Grow Lights: Separating Fact from Fiction

TeaTreeOil

Well-Known Member
Are you saying that 100 watts of LED would outperform my 250 watt HPS?
That's what High Times claims, and every other manufacturer of LEDs for plants also claims. Apparently they have a bunch of research to back it up. It's fairly compelling.

Full disclosure... they actually claim much more than that. :lol:
 
I believe that leds work great for flowering and are a must for keeping the heat down
but if you dont have heat issues use hps for a speedier harvest yet
leds seem to spark flowering i like the 50 watt panels but i think a 50 watt led equals
a 70 watt hps just from exp
 

cowboylogic

Well-Known Member
I think if you were new to growing and didnt know better. LED's would seem to be the bomb! But for someone who knows what 600 watts of well cooled HPS can do. NOT EVEN CLOSE! Just my humble opinion though.
 

brengarne

Member
It seems the North American pricing is way inflated for LED grow panels at the moment, so you are not exactly comparing apples to apples on pricing.

(I do agree that the comparison output claims are exaggerated but not sure how much)

All the main lights are being manufactured in China, most plants are in Shenzen or elsewhere in southern China and have main retail offices in HK.

In HK (from the retail offices) the prices are roughly as follows (and falling month by month)

90W UFO Style = US$100-$120
120W Square style Panel US $130-$160
300W 288 x 1w LED Rectangle Panel US $350-$400
600W 288 x 1w LED Rectangle Panel US $650-$700

I wont mention any particular name or manifacturer to avoid any claim of bias, but with a few minutes on Google you can find this our for yourself and just email them (as I did).

Some of the prices you see in US online or mail order grow shops are nothing short of daylight robbery, and the shops with their exaggerated claims and 500% markups should be avoided.
 

cryppi

Active Member
Screw LED's and MH/HPS Whatever happened to the MPS Lamps? I saw a lot about them in 2007 They seem to have faded away

Microwave Powered Sulphur Plasma Lamps
 

bloatedcraig

Well-Known Member
If you want to save money on the electric, use daylight cfl`s to veg and hps to flower. I found that the plants are shorter and fatter when veg with cfl's and roots are more established. Because you can have the lights closer there is less chance of the stem warping when it is trying to reach the light.
 

smiley87

Active Member
It seems the North American pricing is way inflated for LED grow panels at the moment, so you are not exactly comparing apples to apples on pricing.

(I do agree that the comparison output claims are exaggerated but not sure how much)

All the main lights are being manufactured in China, most plants are in Shenzen or elsewhere in southern China and have main retail offices in HK.

In HK (from the retail offices) the prices are roughly as follows (and falling month by month)

90W UFO Style = US$100-$120
120W Square style Panel US $130-$160
300W 288 x 1w LED Rectangle Panel US $350-$400
600W 288 x 1w LED Rectangle Panel US $650-$700

I wont mention any particular name or manifacturer to avoid any claim of bias, but with a few minutes on Google you can find this our for yourself and just email them (as I did).

Some of the prices you see in US online or mail order grow shops are nothing short of daylight robbery, and the shops with their exaggerated claims and 500% markups should be avoided.
Dont be shy. Spread the word on where you can get them that cheap. I would prob buy one is the shipping didnt kill me.
 

travkatx

Active Member
Im no "engineer" (its funny how many college graduates call themselves engineers when really you need a degree to be one), but if something gets really hot, it means that there is a loss of energy.

No offense man. But a college graduate of an engineering program, does have a degree, by the fact that "he" is a graduate. And if you were meaning to say license, well licenses are only what you need to work as an engineer.

I'm only an engineer student. I found this interesting, I don't necessarily agree, but LED are still in an early stage in the grow lighting tech field. And if you understand economics, you understand the fact that all dollars spent on a field increases the size of that field. Its like voting, each dollar a vote, (overly simplified I know).

Whether you want to buy LEDs is up to you, but remember everything has to start somewhere. I wouldnt mind buying some for cuttings, as they dont work bad there.

Hopefully the industry improves and we all benefit.
 
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guitarabuser

Guest
I just read that Phillips has started selling sample kits of OLEDs so that companies could start developing applications. Super expensive for fairly small discs of OLEDs, but when the cost comes down and they are prevailent I think they could shake things up in the grow room. Think of every wall in you room emitting light from every square inch and cool to the touch. Right now they can only get 14 lumens per watt, but they are shooting for 150. That would be surpassing HPS.
 

TeaTreeOil

Well-Known Member
I just read that Phillips has started selling sample kits of OLEDs so that companies could start developing applications. Super expensive for fairly small discs of OLEDs, but when the cost comes down and they are prevailent I think they could shake things up in the grow room. Think of every wall in you room emitting light from every square inch and cool to the touch. Right now they can only get 14 lumens per watt, but they are shooting for 150. That would be surpassing HPS.
Current LED retail technology is similar to T12/CFL fluorescents. Around 60-85 lumens per watt. Some lab has claimed they have OLEDs which surpass HPS, and even LPS(180-200 lm/W), at around 300 lm/W. Google something like: "LED 300 lumens per watt" You can even click "I'm Feeling Lucky" with that search string.

Also, lumens are for humans, the best plant LEDs do not produce the most lumens, they produce the most photosynthetic photon flux(PPF). Which almost always means producing less lumens to achieve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode

Some select quotes:

In September 2003, a new type of blue LED was demonstrated by the company Cree, Inc. to provide 24 mW at 20 milliamperes [mA]. This produced a commercially packaged white light giving 65 lm/W at 20 mA, becoming the brightest white LED commercially available at the time, and more than four times as efficient as standard incandescents. In 2006 they demonstrated a prototype with a record white LED luminous efficacy of 131 lm/W at 20 mA. Also, Seoul Semiconductor has plans for 135 lm/W by 2007 and 145 lm/W by 2008, which would be approaching an order of magnitude improvement over standard incandescents and better even than standard fluorescents.[22] Nichia Corporation has developed a white LED with luminous efficiency of 150 lm/W at a forward current of 20 mA.[23]
---
Cree issued a press release on November 19, 2008 about a laboratory prototype LED achieving 161 lumens/watt at room temperature. The total output was 173 lumens, and the correlated color temperature was reported to be 4689 K.
HPS doesn't even have a mean luminous efficacy of 130 lm/W.

I guess what you said was true, about 7 years ago. Today many companies have already surpassed 150 lm/W. :lol:
 

Treeth

Well-Known Member
the thing i'm coming to terms with currently about the industry is;

led semiconductor manufacture is much akin to the immensely difficult task of producing cpu silicon...

which if you know anything about, is incredibly high pricision. and yet, every sample from every batch is not alike when perfomance tested, and therefor they must fit within groupings of tiered tolerances...

for the leds' i use, this performance level, and volume in which thier produced means,...

there are a hell of a lot more below par and closer to par than actually par, which is the capabilities of the best examples out of a batch.

My point is, that these highest ppf / lm leds, are never going to be commercially viable. Only now are the '65' lumen per watt dees now becoming even affordable. I'm thinking over ten years. Maybe more., before leds double that in ppf or lumens really become avaliable.
 
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guitarabuser

Guest
Never say never. Especially when you're talking about semi devices.
 
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guitarabuser

Guest
Teatreoil, thanks for the schooling! Thats interesting stuff. The 14w I mentioned was refering to Phillips Lumiblade product. I had no idea others had already passed that point.
 

SaneLawsMake4SaneSociety

Well-Known Member
some key points to remember when comparing these things are

1) The long term real world cost of operation of an item (electricity used, usable life span of components, more money spent on cooling {both on bigger fans, and more power to run them}, for instance)

2) comparing apples to apples, when researching (a 400 watt laser will probably cut you in half, but it will not help you grow a plant, i.e., comparing wattage alone is insufficient....does anyone have a definitive answer on exactly what spec to compare? Lumens? Lux? Lex Luthor? )

3) There are also some intangibles that are harder to calculate, but are still worth looking into like the noise a fan system makes when it has to pump a lot more air, which would be a security issue, and the fact that if a light has to be a certain distance from a plant in order not to roast it, you are effectively shrinking the usable height of your grow room. (I know that people have had success cutting that distance down by adding fans, so if that method is chosen, the calculation gets more complicated, because now you still have some height lost, but now more money is spent on fans, and electricity to run them)

A person can get even crazier trying to factor in everything. For instance, if you are in a cold climate or season, and you are venting the heat back into your house, the energy lost to produce and vent the heat is offset somewhat by the fact that the heat is a usable by product for you, although it is heat that was produced by electricity, which is still the most expensive way to produce heat, even with current oil prices. Thats math that gets really complicated really quickly, though, so I am guessing its probably best to get the major stuff ironed out first, before delving into that part of it.

my $.02
 

ganjaluvr

Well-Known Member
Listen people... LED lights DO NOT have a high enough Lumens rating.. nor do they have a bright enough spectrum. They just aren't the logical way to grow. They are not made for growing.. and never have been.

Leave LED lights to be used in the auto industry and what ever other industry(s) use it. It will be YEARS down the road before experts can get LED lights to match the lumens of HPS Bulbs and MH bulbs.

Honestly.. right now I would rather grow with my CFL lights. But then again.. I have special high wattage Spiral CFL bulbs that put out 12,000 lumens X each bulb. So a total of 24,000 Lumens is what I currently have. Which is basically giving me the same results as about a 250HPS/MH lighting setup would. Which is enough for me as I am only growing two plants. Keeping them small and bushy too. And the other two reasons I prefer CFL bulbs.. is the fact that they save me money on my electric bill and they don't put out near the heat of a MH/HPS setup does.

Anyhow, thats just my 2cents. :)
 

MRsteverson

Well-Known Member
been vegging under my 90w ufo dual band... and it smokes... i mean smokes the shit outof any 400w mh i have ever seen... i dotn use it for flowering yet as i want more wattage for that
 
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