Obama is the anti-Christ!!!
- Thread starter DontDoDrugs
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Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
No, this is you postponing the inevitable.Don't talk down to me, I've had no trouble grasping every concept you've presented to me.You make an artificial heart using TECHNOLOGY.That is not evolution.You're going to have to account for how your organic body is going to react to a synthetic part....and that probably means medication for the rest of your life to suppress your body's natural reaction to a foreign material.So no, you're not evolving,you're postponing, you're bypassing, you're buying time.
AGSteve
Well-Known Member
there is no denying that he is a mammal. that is definitely fact. truth, justice, freedom... yep unfortunately concepts that are sadly lacking in all of us.
I didn't read this discussion from the top but I'm assuming your discussing stem cell research/implementation..... Correct?
I Love what you said here... It is very articulate and well spoken... You got me on your side with that matter.... aka. Don't "play god"... We have the technology to handle heart transplants (Big form of LOVE) we don't need to artificially make them.... that may or may not be a disastrous ending.
God is Love
Peace and Love 
Tronica
Well-Known Member
Yep, that is right.
This is human beings creating their own evolution. This is called Neo-evolution and the topic has been discussed for years. Much before that movie was made. We were discussing this in Philosophy 6 years ago. It's a fascinating topic and many great minds have grapsed this concept as a concise one.
And that's exactly what I'm arguing.
This guy says I'm just like any other creature. But I defy all other creatures at every turn. He's not looking at the evolution of intelligence, only the evolution of the physical. And therefore comparing us to animals, when the fact is our uniqueness (that ive touched on many times) differentiates us from that evolution. What makes us unique? Our brains. Our intelligence. Through the evolution of my mind I am able to manifest my own external evolutions.
AGSteve
Well-Known Member
i would say that depends on what you replace parts with. i would also say that being able to understand how you could replace such parts is an evolution in knowledge.
Tronica
Well-Known Member
evolution is not a "now" thing
it is a past, present, and future.
so what is lacking in us right now, could have been in our past, or could be in our future.
AGSteve
Well-Known Member
not sure what point your trying to put across in your last sentence.
i think even us infadels would agree that evolution is not a now thing. it has been, is and will be.
this seems to contradict most if not all of your earlier statements. or is it that you just refuse the idea of being a descendant of an ape on the tree of life?
Tronica
Well-Known Member
ugh
no, you're not following.
you're trying to use what i say to validate you own points?
do i honestly come off and someone who would contradict himself so easily
look closer at what i said and figure it out.
Brazko
Well-Known Member
I see, only quip I shall find in what you have said, is that Our Brain (intelligence that is in Direct Contrast with our Body) the more developed the body is, the less developed the Brain, and vice versa.......the Less Developed the Body the Larger the brain (Intellectually speaking) that mammal may be as with any species of any kingdom, which have all undergone changes......and the majority of higher intellectual Animals happen to be some type of Meat Eater........Right? Good discussion sounds like tho.......wish I would've attended college for those discussions
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
First of all, I'm not a guy.Secondly, you can't claim to be intellectually superior when you have no viable way of measuring the intelligence of other animals because the only thing you have to compare it with is yourself.You Don't KNOW how the thought processes of other creatures work,because you ARE NOT THEM. So you know nothing except what is familiar to you.
The evolution of intelligence is a direct result of biological processes...to put it simply, if your ancestors hadn't decided to eat meat, you wouldn't have been able to benefit from that by inheriting your big brain.Your brain is an organ.Any intelligence you might or might not have is directly related to the function and chemical processes of that organ.
So you think your mind is a unique thing, but you really have no idea.You only have yourself as a reference.The goals of humans may be totally different than that of other creatures,and therefore, since they don't recognize the same things as we do as important,they don't respond to our intelligence tests in the same way...hence we say we are better.
If with your mind you could manifest your own external evolutions,why then would you have chosen to be like all of the rest of the humans and mammals, earthbound, and in a perpetual state of decay?Because in fact you have no choice in that way.You are a biological organism,subject to the limitations of said organism.You are no better, only different.You WILL decay like the rest of the biological organisms,and the part of you which fueled your thoughts and intelligence, YOUR BRAIN, will decay as well.You're not special.You are made of decaying organic matter, just like every other living thing on this earth.Your dream of telescopic evolution will certainly not come in your lifetime.Fight all you want,yell, scream, try to assign it a higher purpose.In the end,it will be as it always is.
The evolution of intelligence is a direct result of biological processes...to put it simply, if your ancestors hadn't decided to eat meat, you wouldn't have been able to benefit from that by inheriting your big brain.Your brain is an organ.Any intelligence you might or might not have is directly related to the function and chemical processes of that organ.
So you think your mind is a unique thing, but you really have no idea.You only have yourself as a reference.The goals of humans may be totally different than that of other creatures,and therefore, since they don't recognize the same things as we do as important,they don't respond to our intelligence tests in the same way...hence we say we are better.
If with your mind you could manifest your own external evolutions,why then would you have chosen to be like all of the rest of the humans and mammals, earthbound, and in a perpetual state of decay?Because in fact you have no choice in that way.You are a biological organism,subject to the limitations of said organism.You are no better, only different.You WILL decay like the rest of the biological organisms,and the part of you which fueled your thoughts and intelligence, YOUR BRAIN, will decay as well.You're not special.You are made of decaying organic matter, just like every other living thing on this earth.Your dream of telescopic evolution will certainly not come in your lifetime.Fight all you want,yell, scream, try to assign it a higher purpose.In the end,it will be as it always is.
AGSteve
Well-Known Member
no i'm not trying to validate my own points with anything you say.
yes you do come across as someone contradicts himself all the time.
i've read everything you've said and most of it was bullshit imo.
we did agree on one point tho that intelligence evolves. not in the same way as biological processes evolved us from apes. intelligence evolves by passing our knowledge on to our children and they take the ideas another step forward.
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
Anyway folks, think I've presented my side of the debate to my satisfaction.It's been fun bantering back and forth, but I'm off to bed.Night all.
AGSteve
Well-Known Member
definitely we are not superior to any other organism on the planet. would you agree tho that intelligence as we know it in humans is currently evolving due to passing our knowledge on to our children so that they can further our ideas. or would you call it something else?
Tronica
Well-Known Member
We're discussing evolution and you're telling me what I can't do right now.
I'm going to bed too.
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
As the organ(brain) evolves,so does the abilities it possesses.Cause and effect.
No, I'm disagreeing with your entire theory.Now quit acting like you're intellectually superior because I can't think of any of your arguments as viable when you cite the Catholic church in the same sentence as evolution.So we'll agree to disagree.
We're discussing evolution and you're telling me what I can't do right now.
I'm going to bed too.
Tronica
Well-Known Member
This is a conclusion I also believe that was discussed in part with the original poster, and you can say all you want about that but this excrept still remains a better explanation than anything seen on here, especially the made up religion.
God does not exist. God is existence.
Let me start with a little background introduction. I was born and raised a Catholic and faith has always been a big part of my life. As I grew older and went to school I began to learn science and I enjoyed it. But the two seemed at times to conflict, especially the belief in God the creator and the theory of evolution. Without knowing much about evolution, and feeling that it took away from God somehow, I read about arguments against the theory. No proof of macro evolution, the reliability (or unreliability) of radiometric dating methods, etc. I was strong in my belief when the theory was weak. But then I took a philosophy class (in college) in which evolution was discussed as a topic. I began to see the flaws in my own arguments and realized that if I wanted to weaken the theory of evolution I would have to study the science for myself. That class and philosophy teacher where a big influence on my life. I went on to minor in geology specifically so that I could study the fossil record and evolution. I had another great teacher, a paleontologist. I took a class called 'life of the past' and another called 'evolutionary concepts' from him. To make a long story short all the walls finally came tumbling down. I had to admit to myself that Darwin was on to something, the evidence was overwhelming. Knowing that there can be no contradiction between science and religion I was stuck with a rather uneasy belief in a creator and a full acceptance of the tenets of the theory of evolution. I knew the two had to be compatible but I just didn't know exactly how they where. I was not satisfied with this and for the past year or so I have been thinking about how the relationship could be strengthened between these two beliefs. I wanted to have a strong, logical, rational reason for why God created through evolution because I have come to believe that is how it was done.
Finally let me say that what I came up with is no scientific theory or proof of creation. I think that any such thing is impossible because such proof would begin to infringe on free will and that cannot happen. The ideas that I will present represent my own thought on the matter although they are not necessarily new ideas I was heavily influenced by the philosophy and theology that I have studies. I have not discussed these thoughts with anyone and feel now that I have reached a point where I should begin to test these ideas in a public forum, so here goes....
The first thing that one needs is a proper understanding of the nature of God as creator. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc. God is the ultimate reality. But if one is to prove that God is creator one must prove that God exists right? I came across the idea that God is not a being but being itself. This made me realize that asking whether God exists or not made no sense. When this question is put forth God is being reduced to a thing in the very asking of the question. If existence is a property that God either has or does not have, then it (existence) is more powerful than God, God becomes subservient to it. And it makes no sense to ask if existence exists since by the very fact that anything exists at all existence must be a necessary property of reality. What follows is that if time exists then it does so by partaking in existence and so existence is not subservient to time and is therefor timeless, eternal. In fact all things that exist, either actually exist or possibly exist from our perceptive, partake in existence. Unicorns have an existence even if it is only as a mental concept and not in physical reality. Existence is everywhere for everyplace that is, exists, even nowhere and nothing exist in some way. Existence is omnipresent So existence would have access to perfect knowledge of all things and by way of the arguments put forth by logical positivism this access would result in total perfect knowledge of everything, existence is omniscient. With total presence and total knowledge total power is not far behind. The more I thought about it the more clear it seemed to me, God does not exist... God is existence. The next question then is how does God give being itself, existence itself, to specific acts of being, specific existing entities like me and you and how does this relate to evolution?
Having existence as the metaphysical root of reality I wondered where essence came into play. I thought that perhaps instead of thinking of essence as something that provided being, that perhaps it was something that merely limited God's being. Think of essence as a filter through which God/existence flows through into specific being. Existence would flow out of God through the filter of the essence of, for example, our universe to become matter in space and time. Existence would flow through the filter of humanity to become a bipedal biological machine and then flow further through our individual essence, our own soul, to become our own particular act of being. In this way, God is a transcendent, all powerful, ungraspable, reality but at the same time is intimately connected to and personally knows each and every corner of all that is, was, and ever will be. God is both personal and transcendent. God is both creator of all reality and a the same time that which sustains it moment to moment, by continually pouring himself out into our reality. Like the psalm says:
"Of old you laid the foundations of the earth; the heavens are the works of your hands. They perish but you remain; they all wear out like a garment; like clothing you change them and they are changed, but you are the same, your years have no end.
Let me say again, this is not a proof, it is a logical system of reality that may or may not be the case. It is a philosophical theory of metaphysical reality. But I believe that it provides a solid foundation upon which God as creator is not only compatible with evolution, but necessarily follows from the nature of God as existence and the essential quality of the universe as matter in space and time. Holding a belief in God and accepting evolution, for me at least, is no longer an uneasy alliance of sorts. It seem as if there is no way for God to have created our reality without it being an evolving, constant pouring out of his being into our being. And the more I thought about it the more clear it was that the very nature of this universe is change, that everything evolves in some way. The very purpose of our lives here is to grow and evolve spiritually as individuals and as a species. Everything is on the path of becoming perfected at the end of time when God's creative act has been complete. God's act of salvation history is an evolution through Abraham and the patriarchs through Jesus and up to this day and into the future. And since God is so intimately involved in the unfolding of the natural world it becomes very easy to mistake the causal relations therein. One can see that evolution and even the initial emergence of life on earth for evolution to work on will necessarily appear as purely 'natural' events because they are! There is nothing wrong with that, it takes faith to see God's part in this whole drama and it must be this way because as I said before, if we could see God and prove that he is then our free will becomes almost if not totally meaningless.
God does not exist. God is existence.
Let me start with a little background introduction. I was born and raised a Catholic and faith has always been a big part of my life. As I grew older and went to school I began to learn science and I enjoyed it. But the two seemed at times to conflict, especially the belief in God the creator and the theory of evolution. Without knowing much about evolution, and feeling that it took away from God somehow, I read about arguments against the theory. No proof of macro evolution, the reliability (or unreliability) of radiometric dating methods, etc. I was strong in my belief when the theory was weak. But then I took a philosophy class (in college) in which evolution was discussed as a topic. I began to see the flaws in my own arguments and realized that if I wanted to weaken the theory of evolution I would have to study the science for myself. That class and philosophy teacher where a big influence on my life. I went on to minor in geology specifically so that I could study the fossil record and evolution. I had another great teacher, a paleontologist. I took a class called 'life of the past' and another called 'evolutionary concepts' from him. To make a long story short all the walls finally came tumbling down. I had to admit to myself that Darwin was on to something, the evidence was overwhelming. Knowing that there can be no contradiction between science and religion I was stuck with a rather uneasy belief in a creator and a full acceptance of the tenets of the theory of evolution. I knew the two had to be compatible but I just didn't know exactly how they where. I was not satisfied with this and for the past year or so I have been thinking about how the relationship could be strengthened between these two beliefs. I wanted to have a strong, logical, rational reason for why God created through evolution because I have come to believe that is how it was done.
Finally let me say that what I came up with is no scientific theory or proof of creation. I think that any such thing is impossible because such proof would begin to infringe on free will and that cannot happen. The ideas that I will present represent my own thought on the matter although they are not necessarily new ideas I was heavily influenced by the philosophy and theology that I have studies. I have not discussed these thoughts with anyone and feel now that I have reached a point where I should begin to test these ideas in a public forum, so here goes....
The first thing that one needs is a proper understanding of the nature of God as creator. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc. God is the ultimate reality. But if one is to prove that God is creator one must prove that God exists right? I came across the idea that God is not a being but being itself. This made me realize that asking whether God exists or not made no sense. When this question is put forth God is being reduced to a thing in the very asking of the question. If existence is a property that God either has or does not have, then it (existence) is more powerful than God, God becomes subservient to it. And it makes no sense to ask if existence exists since by the very fact that anything exists at all existence must be a necessary property of reality. What follows is that if time exists then it does so by partaking in existence and so existence is not subservient to time and is therefor timeless, eternal. In fact all things that exist, either actually exist or possibly exist from our perceptive, partake in existence. Unicorns have an existence even if it is only as a mental concept and not in physical reality. Existence is everywhere for everyplace that is, exists, even nowhere and nothing exist in some way. Existence is omnipresent So existence would have access to perfect knowledge of all things and by way of the arguments put forth by logical positivism this access would result in total perfect knowledge of everything, existence is omniscient. With total presence and total knowledge total power is not far behind. The more I thought about it the more clear it seemed to me, God does not exist... God is existence. The next question then is how does God give being itself, existence itself, to specific acts of being, specific existing entities like me and you and how does this relate to evolution?
Having existence as the metaphysical root of reality I wondered where essence came into play. I thought that perhaps instead of thinking of essence as something that provided being, that perhaps it was something that merely limited God's being. Think of essence as a filter through which God/existence flows through into specific being. Existence would flow out of God through the filter of the essence of, for example, our universe to become matter in space and time. Existence would flow through the filter of humanity to become a bipedal biological machine and then flow further through our individual essence, our own soul, to become our own particular act of being. In this way, God is a transcendent, all powerful, ungraspable, reality but at the same time is intimately connected to and personally knows each and every corner of all that is, was, and ever will be. God is both personal and transcendent. God is both creator of all reality and a the same time that which sustains it moment to moment, by continually pouring himself out into our reality. Like the psalm says:
"Of old you laid the foundations of the earth; the heavens are the works of your hands. They perish but you remain; they all wear out like a garment; like clothing you change them and they are changed, but you are the same, your years have no end.
Let me say again, this is not a proof, it is a logical system of reality that may or may not be the case. It is a philosophical theory of metaphysical reality. But I believe that it provides a solid foundation upon which God as creator is not only compatible with evolution, but necessarily follows from the nature of God as existence and the essential quality of the universe as matter in space and time. Holding a belief in God and accepting evolution, for me at least, is no longer an uneasy alliance of sorts. It seem as if there is no way for God to have created our reality without it being an evolving, constant pouring out of his being into our being. And the more I thought about it the more clear it was that the very nature of this universe is change, that everything evolves in some way. The very purpose of our lives here is to grow and evolve spiritually as individuals and as a species. Everything is on the path of becoming perfected at the end of time when God's creative act has been complete. God's act of salvation history is an evolution through Abraham and the patriarchs through Jesus and up to this day and into the future. And since God is so intimately involved in the unfolding of the natural world it becomes very easy to mistake the causal relations therein. One can see that evolution and even the initial emergence of life on earth for evolution to work on will necessarily appear as purely 'natural' events because they are! There is nothing wrong with that, it takes faith to see God's part in this whole drama and it must be this way because as I said before, if we could see God and prove that he is then our free will becomes almost if not totally meaningless.
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
Basically what you just said, in a nutshell, is that you wanted to believe something, so you did.Like I said,we'll agree to disagree.And this isn't a question of me not leaving something alone, it's me responding to posts after not logging on yesterday.Sorry it doesn't mesh with your schedule.
(God does not exist... God is existence.And this is from the book god in your body.)Where did you copy and paste the rest from?
(God does not exist... God is existence.And this is from the book god in your body.)Where did you copy and paste the rest from?
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