this is who i have to deal with...

[JohnDee]

How many welfare moms have you known during your career that have done this? That is shitty if they are popping out kids just to get more money, but, I would imagine it has to be a crazy small number of people that have kids in the juvenile system, much less the percent of them doing that to pay for healthcare for their delinquent kids.

It is easy to generalize and complain about 'them' who ever it is, but it doesn't make it reality. Mostly kids do well enough in school/life to benefit our society as a whole. Unfortunately as economic resources decrease it becomes more of a struggle and higher probability of bad things happening which make it difficult (in a nation that is very quick to punish people for the rest of their lives) to be successful.

hanimal,
I'm an old 60s guy and back then, interest in Buddhism was high. I chose my career as an expression of "right livelihood", and in addition, I chose to work in under-served areas. Juvie hall was just one of those places which included prisons and mental hospitals.


I worked at Juvie for two years and made several calls a week to the Moms in question. Most had a small gaggle of tykes.

When there's a good deal, people network and tell others about it. I grew up on the North Dakota, Minnesota borderline. It was a big sugar beat area and all those freshly planted fields needed weeding and thinning. They paid us by the row. I was 14 years old.

Many fields were hoed by Mexican migrant workers...who could hoe circles around us. Found out later that the farmers withhold payment till the end of the season. They all lived on generous Minnesota welfare and housing provided by the farmer.

When they got paid...they were gone. Back to Mexico. No taxes paid. Had food stamps, health care, housing. Never any shortage of migrant labor in Minnesota.

I'm not making a statement about this loophole...but I am pointing out that...over in conservative North Dakota, that situation did not exist due to stricter laws.

Years later, I even met some Mexicans who were on their way to Minnesota. Kinda like the hippie trail. Word of mouth.

Another similar situation was when I worked close to the border in southern Cali. Mexican mothers sensing labor was close...headed for the border so the Nina would be a US citizen and she could move here to be with her child. Citizenship through childbirth. Happens all the time. I delivered two babies...one in the back seat of a taxi.

.I was all ready to blast you...but, really, I suspect that we just live in very different worlds. I wish people behaved better...and it's not too late for me. I'm trying.
Take care,
DrDee

 

[kgp]

Hi Guys,
Maybe the subtleties of hillbilly behavior is lost on me...but I have my own experiences with welfare mothers of juvenille delinquents. Worked at large urban city Juvenille Hall providing health care to the little thugs. Occasionally...if we had to send a kid out to a specialist MD...the parents were billed for part of that cost.

You would not believe the outrage from these women....many of whom are 3rd and even 4th generation welfare recipients. It's a way of life to them...a birthright? A life of poverty if you ask me. But if they need more income...they just pop out another kid. Oh man...why did I start thinking about this?

Rog and Randy...this is all your fault. Now I'm frothing at the mouth. People might mistake me for Shrubber...
Peace,
JD

Yes, slaves of the system.

I know many like this. And you wonder why they vote dem or support socialism.

What they don't realize is they are right where the government wants them. The new modern day slavery. They may get free shit but will never have anything nice or above average. Strung along in poverty. Their votes are bought and paid for. Im convinced people like this will only work if they had to and being they don't have to, never will. If they can be given the necessities, they are content, but also optimistic and that's being a nice way to put it. What I mean is that is the reason theft is so high in poverty stricken areas. Given the opportunity they will take what's yours. Illegal in practice, but the government does it legally by how they disperse the tax money they collect from me that I worked hard to make.

I am a very compassionate and understand that some people need help to dig themselves out of a hole whether self inflicted or circumstantial. I dont mind helping people but the help should be temporarily. When there are more people who need help, than those that can afford to help, it will be the end and back to wild wild west.

 

[JohnDee]

Yes, slaves of the system.

I know many like this. And you wonder why they vote dem or support socialism.

What they don't realize is they are right where the government wants them. The new modern day slavery. They may get free shit but will never have anything nice or above average. Strung along in poverty. Their votes are bought and paid for. Im convinced people like this will only work if they had to and being they don't have to, never will. If they can be given the necessities, they are content, but also optimistic and that's being a nice way to put it. What I mean is that is the reason theft is so high in poverty stricken areas. Given the opportunity they will take what's yours. Illegal in practice, but the government does it legally by how they disperse the tax money they collect from me that I worked hard to make.

I am a very compassionate and understand that some people need help to dig themselves out of a hole whether self inflicted or circumstantial. I dont mind helping people but the help should be temporarily. When there are more people who need help, than those that can afford to help, it will be the end and back to wild wild west.

Kgp,
Interesting and thoughtful post. I have to agree.

Years ago, in my first year of college...ok, ok...it was 1968...I remember reading about a clear cut relationship between social unrest and the amount of welfare. Any period of unrest has been followed immediately by a boost in social programs. This is true for something like the last 100 years. Modernity. Indeed...welfare is social control. We are all victims. (cue the chilling music)
Cheers,
JD (stoned at 9:01am)

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

Kgp,
Interesting and thoughtful post. I have to agree.

Years ago, in my first year of college...ok, ok...it was 1968...I remember reading about a clear cut relationship between social unrest and the amount of welfare. Any period of unrest has been followed immediately by a boost in social programs. This is true for something like the last 100 years. Modernity. Indeed...welfare is social control. We are all victims. (cue the chilling music)
Cheers,
JD (stoned at 9:01am)

i've watched the same cycle my whole life. Republicans are good for the economy, but they have shitty social programs. democrats are bad for the economy, but good for human rights. when people get tired of the bullshit of the bunch in control at the moment, they switch out. it's about time for the republicans to shut the fuck up and hide for a while, people are getting really tired of their shit at the moment, and letting trump run your party into the ground isn't helping one little bit. he's like a magnifying glass, relentlessly focusing on his own errors, and the errors other republicans make just by letting him remain in power

 

[kgp]

i've watched the same cycle my whole life. Republicans are good for the economy, but they have shitty social programs. democrats are bad for the economy, but good for human rights. when people get tired of the bullshit of the bunch in control at the moment, they switch out. it's about time for the republicans to shut the fuck up and hide for a while, people are getting really tired of their shit at the moment, and letting trump run your party into the ground isn't helping one little bit. he's like a magnifying glass, relentlessly focusing on his own errors, and the errors other republicans make just by letting him remain in power

With a good economy, wouldn't that equate to lesser social programs?

If the job market is going well and there are more and better paying jobs, wouldn't that mean that more people could find work and get off social programs? I wonder why this doesn't happen to life long welfare recipients? I know the answer.. Its by choice.

I'm not arguing here. I despise both sides, far left and far right. Im preaching middle ground and a balanced system but when I do, i get verbally attacked by anyone to the left of a right sided libertarian. And that's okay.

Whether we agree or not, the country is much like a business. It needs to be able to sustain itself. If we help everyone who wants help, there would be nothing left. And now it seems we are focusing on bringing in and helping immigrants of other nations too. What happens when the cookie jar runs dry?

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

well, see, many of those coming here seeking help will stay, and become productive citizens. who pay taxes. and raise families. who will grow up and work and pay taxes.
i'd say in reality about 85-90% of the people receiving some kind of social assistance actually need it. it's the 10-15% that are scamming the system that need to be slapped down, hard.
if the economy improves, it usually means little to those already on some kind of social assistance. the factories and stores in their areas won't expand, or hire more people. no one will get new work, so no new money comes into those areas. the economy improving is a trickle down kind of thing, and the trickle is slow, small, and sporadic.
i've been harassing some people about the "redistribution of wealth" but that's actually what needs to happen, even if that is one of the worst names for a thing anyone could think of...
there is too much value placed on essentially useless middle management, and far too little placed on the employs who actually produce something useful. American workers are actually some of the worst treated in the modern world.
we need to level the playing field for everyone, and make sure people who have natural talents have a chance to develop them. far too many people are left behind because they didn't have a chance to go to school and get a piece of paper from a bunch of professors who can't do, so they teach....

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

hanimal,
I'm an old 60s guy and back then, interest in Buddhism was high. I chose my career as an expression of "right livelihood", and in addition, I chose to work in under-served areas. Juvie hall was just one of those places which included prisons and mental hospitals.


I worked at Juvie for two years and made several calls a week to the Moms in question. Most had a small gaggle of tykes.

When there's a good deal, people network and tell others about it. I grew up on the North Dakota, Minnesota borderline. It was a big sugar beat area and all those freshly planted fields needed weeding and thinning. They paid us by the row. I was 14 years old.

Many fields were hoed by Mexican migrant workers...who could hoe circles around us. Found out later that the farmers withhold payment till the end of the season. They all lived on generous Minnesota welfare and housing provided by the farmer.

When they got paid...they were gone. Back to Mexico. No taxes paid. Had food stamps, health care, housing. Never any shortage of migrant labor in Minnesota.

I'm not making a statement about this loophole...but I am pointing out that...over in conservative North Dakota, that situation did not exist due to stricter laws.

Years later, I even met some Mexicans who were on their way to Minnesota. Kinda like the hippie trail. Word of mouth.

Another similar situation was when I worked close to the border in southern Cali. Mexican mothers sensing labor was close...headed for the border so the Nina would be a US citizen and she could move here to be with her child. Citizenship through childbirth. Happens all the time. I delivered two babies...one in the back seat of a taxi.

.I was all ready to blast you...but, really, I suspect that we just live in very different worlds. I wish people behaved better...and it's not too late for me. I'm trying.
Take care,
DrDee

Ya should have stuck with Buddhism, but here is a good way to step back on to the path https://palousemindfulness.com/ today it's evidence based and very effective. Try the 8 week course, compassion comes first.

I would not worry about the insignificant cost of welfare mothers (women want to have families and there is a shortage of good men, black and white), perhaps with modern genetic testing we could make men responsible for their offspring by deducting payments along with their taxes. You focus on the women, but forget about the men, including those who are divorced and separated and have abandoned their families financially, to start new ones, with a younger wife in most cases. Single men could be taxed at a much higher rate too for instance, to reflect reality a bit better and if you owe child support, it too should come right off your pay check along with your taxes. You are paying for another man's children in most cases, blame him more and mothers less, they are doing their best for their children, or want to in most cases.

Corporate welfare and unnecessary tax cuts for the 1% fuck you over far more than all the "welfare queens" in America combined. How may billion did Trump give farmers for fucking them over with his trade war? The DOD got 60 billion more than it wanted or even asked for with Trump's budget, you got fucked, so did every poor person in America.

The attitudes you expressed are gonna be problematic moving forward into the future, in 30 years a lot of people are gonna be out of work because of technology, most will be highly educated and intelligent too. Many Trump supporters are uneducated people who are doing well financially, the modern global economy is gonna fuck them over big time and they know it. There is no going back however, no stop the world and let me off, if they win, America could become a third world country very quickly, first politically and then economically. In today's world America can go down quicker than China rose, with corrupt and treasonous leaders like Trump, the descent will be very quick, imagine if he had total power.

 

[hanimmal]

.I was all ready to blast you...but, really, I suspect that we just live in very different worlds. I wish people behaved better...and it's not too late for me. I'm trying.
Take care,
DrDee

That is the hardest part of being online is not just trolling people. We have basically been programed to attack any differences by the constant spamming of it. I think of it like a boxers hands, early on the impacts are not that much but the hands hurt. Online you see things so vile/constant attacking when you first started looking at stuff

I worked at Juvie for two years and made several calls a week to the Moms in question. Most had a small gaggle of tykes.

I would look at those families you saw doing that and understand that is not the majority of people in any area.

When there's a good deal, people network and tell others about it. I grew up on the North Dakota, Minnesota borderline. It was a big sugar beat area and all those freshly planted fields needed weeding and thinning. They paid us by the row. I was 14 years old.

I moved out into the country around 7 years old and grew up down the street from a potato farm. But I still had lots of family living in the city and got to know a lot of people from different worlds. I started working in 7th grade at a local trailer park for cutting grass and stuff until I graduated high school.

When they got paid...they were gone. Back to Mexico. No taxes paid. Had food stamps, health care, housing. Never any shortage of migrant labor in Minnesota.

I'm not making a statement about this loophole...but I am pointing out that...over in conservative North Dakota, that situation did not exist due to stricter laws.

I blame the employer for breaking the laws on this. They created the market place, I understand the benefit and need for cash employment here and there, but I have a lot of issues with farmers and how we have ripped apart our land over the last few hundred years. Luckily today a lot are paid by check at these farms and regardless of their status if it is by a check taxes are being paid on it.

Years later, I even met some Mexicans who were on their way to Minnesota. Kinda like the hippie trail. Word of mouth.

Another similar situation was when I worked close to the border in southern Cali. Mexican mothers sensing labor was close...headed for the border so the Nina would be a US citizen and she could move here to be with her child. Citizenship through childbirth. Happens all the time. I delivered two babies...one in the back seat of a taxi.

That is what I love about America, even if people don't start out with anything, they have the opportunity to make their way (even if it is much harder) and generally over their lifetimes pay far more into the our system than they needed to get out of a hole.

 

[UncleBuck]

So the government lady that walked out was angry because she wasn't able to suppress free speech and grab guns ?

I wonder if she'll be okay with keeping a few guns around to use to implement her ideas?

Are you white supremacists just calling racism and bigotry “free speech” now instead of racism and bigotry

 

[UncleBuck]

With a good economy, wouldn't that equate to lesser social programs?

If the job market is going well and there are more and better paying jobs, wouldn't that mean that more people could find work and get off social programs? I wonder why this doesn't happen to life long welfare recipients? I know the answer.. Its by choice.

I'm not arguing here. I despise both sides, far left and far right. Im preaching middle ground and a balanced system but when I do, i get verbally attacked by anyone to the left of a right sided libertarian. And that's okay.

Whether we agree or not, the country is much like a business. It needs to be able to sustain itself. If we help everyone who wants help, there would be nothing left. And now it seems we are focusing on bringing in and helping immigrants of other nations too. What happens when the cookie jar runs dry?

Are you still planning on taking social security when you retire even though it will be funded by the tax dollars of those immigrants s you hate so much and their children?

Btw, the biggest burden and drain on our system is from whites, not immigrants. You seemed confused about that

Thanks pedo lover

 

[kgp]

Are you still planning on taking social security when you retire even though it will be funded by the tax dollars of those immigrants s you hate so much and their children?

Btw, the biggest burden and drain on our system is from whites, not immigrants. You seemed confused about that

Thanks pedo lover

Yes, I plan on taking social security. I bet I will never get back what I paid into it. That's okay. I work hard got a good amount of money and a great 401K plan also. The rest of MY money that I put in can be spread to others. I really don't care.

I don't hate immigrants. I don't hate anyone. I don't like illegal immigrants that don't pay taxes. I also don't think the USA should give benefits to any immigrant illegal or not. They should all have a sponsor and go through legal means and hard work, the same as I expect out myself.

I am a white male and can only speak for myself but I personally have never gotten a dollar from the government, in fact, I have paid a whole lot of money to them. Going on your expert statisacts, I may not be the norm. I dont really care.

 

[UncleBuck]

Yes, I plan on taking social security. I bet I will never get back what I paid into it. That's okay. I work hard got a good amount of money and a great 401K plan also. The rest of MY money that I put in can be spread to others. I really don't care.

I don't hate immigrants. I don't hate anyone. I don't like illegal immigrants that don't pay taxes. I also don't think the USA should give benefits to any immigrant illegal or not. They should all have a sponsor and go through legal means and hard work, the same as I expect out myself.

I am a white male and can only speak for myself but I personally have never gotten a dollar from the government, in fact, I have paid a whole lot of money to them. Going on your expert statisacts, I may not be the norm. I dont really care.

So you paid for your own prison stay? I don’t think so

You’re an illegal

And please stop lying to us and apologize for lying to us

 

[kgp]

So you paid for your own prison stay? I don’t think so

You’re an illegal

And please stop lying to us and apologize for lying to us

I paid my debt to society. Stay clean man, because I don't think you could handle life behind the walls.

I have a social security card, birth certificate, drivers license, and pay taxes.

I also have no criminal background record. After 7 years, I have my record expunged and all rights restored.

I will not reply to another of your posts, I feel I am losing IQ's every time I reply.

Arguing with a fool is like.. never mind, Ill probably offend you.

Have a great day bucky. We are blessed to be alive and well.

 

[hanimmal]

With a good economy, wouldn't that equate to lesser social programs?

If the job market is going well and there are more and better paying jobs, wouldn't that mean that more people could find work and get off social programs? I wonder why this doesn't happen to life long welfare recipients? I know the answer.. Its by choice.

I'm not arguing here. I despise both sides, far left and far right. Im preaching middle ground and a balanced system but when I do, i get verbally attacked by anyone to the left of a right sided libertarian. And that's okay.

Whether we agree or not, the country is much like a business. It needs to be able to sustain itself. If we help everyone who wants help, there would be nothing left. And now it seems we are focusing on bringing in and helping immigrants of other nations too. What happens when the cookie jar runs dry?

The problem you are overlooking is that a portion of our people are not able to be successful in society for many different reasons. Social programs are designed to help give everyone a chance to make it back on their feet in times of an emergency. There will always be people that are unable to take care of themselves and we don't do a very good job at giving a level playing field. The entire suburban/rural areas keep kicking their poor down the streets until they end up in cities that are forced to try to deal with them.

Helping people is not going to bankrupt us, especially if we repeal the tax breaks Trump gave to his richest buddies. Just because a program is not targeted to the Wealthy White Male doesn't mean that it is a bad investment for our country.

 

[kgp]

The problem you are overlooking is that a portion of our people are not able to be successful in society for many different reasons. Social programs are designed to help give everyone a chance to make it back on their feet in times of an emergency. There will always be people that are unable to take care of themselves and we don't do a very good job at giving a level playing field. The entire suburban/rural areas keep kicking their poor down the streets until they end up in cities that are forced to try to deal with them.

Helping people is not going to bankrupt us, especially if we repeal the tax breaks Trump gave to his richest buddies. Just because a program is not targeted to the Wealthy White Male doesn't mean that it is a bad investment for our country.

I agree but I hold everyone to the same standards as I do myself. If you are handicapped, mentally or physically, I understand. But any person with 2 legs, 2 hands, and a brain can do what I do. You get your ass up and go to work. Whether you feel like it or not. Start from the bottom. Hard work and dedication will pay off, at bare minimum pay the bills.

There shouldn't be a level playing field. That's like participation trophies. Those that work hard and choose to better themselves should have nicer things and a better life than those that choose not to.

I believe in help but believe it should be temporary.

I agree the rich should pay their fair share, but I also think it should be a percentage of their earnings. 30% of a poor person's salary is going to be significantly less than 30% of the rich. Pick a number and make it across the board. I agree no tax breaks for the rich.

 

[hanimmal]

I agree but I hold everyone to the same standards as I do myself. If you are handicapped, mentally or physically, I understand. But any person with 2 legs, 2 hands, and a brain can do what I do. You get your ass up and go to work. Whether you feel like it or not. Start from the bottom. Hard work and dedication will pay off, at bare minimum pay the bills.

I am arguing that the majority of people on long term social programs fit into those categories (handicapped, mental or physical).

And the programs that people use that are not one of those two, help society far more over the course of a person's life than it would cost to find those few people leeching the system and not paying back into it.

There shouldn't be a level playing field. That's like participation trophies. Those that work hard and choose to better themselves should have nicer things and a better life than those that choose not to.

Level playing field doesn't mean that those people won't succeed and keep their shit, just that people should have an equal chance at developing the skills to be qualified to work in any field that they are capable of doing the work to learn.

I agree the rich should pay their fair share, but I also think it should be a percentage of their earnings. 30% of a poor person's salary is going to be significantly less than 30% of the rich. Pick a number and make it across the board. I agree no tax breaks for the rich.

The flat % thing is a gimmick that actually allows wealthy people to keep more of their income. Things like electricity, food, clothing, gas, health insurance all generally end up costing the same regardless of income level, so the wealthier a person is, the more of their wealth is freed up to invest. Meanwhile any large company is benefitting off of the education/workforce system that we all pay for more so (because they are getting more money) they should pick up more of the tab to keep getting the next generations into a position to do well in life.

 

[kgp]

I am arguing that the majority of people on long term social programs fit into those categories (handicapped, mental or physical).

And the programs that people use that are not one of those two, help society far more over the course of a person's life than it would cost to find those few people leeching the system and not paying back into it.


Level playing field doesn't mean that those people won't succeed and keep their shit, just that people should have an equal chance at developing the skills to be qualified to work in any field that they are capable of doing the work to learn.


The flat % thing is a gimmick that actually allows wealthy people to keep more of their income. Things like electricity, food, clothing, gas, health insurance all generally end up costing the same regardless of income level, so the wealthier a person is, the more of their wealth is freed up to invest. Meanwhile any large company is benefitting off of the education/workforce system that we all pay for more so (because they are getting more money) they should pick up more of the tab to keep getting the next generations into a position to do well in life.

I know quite a few people on welfare. Everyone one I know abuses it. Every single one. Funny how people can work hard under the table as long as it doesn't effect there welfare check. Or sell their food stamps for 50 on the dollar. Or fake illnesses to get disability but physically and mentally capable of working. I only know from my personal experiences in life and this is what I see with my own eyes.

And with your logic, why even try and be successful? If for every 10k you make, you take a higher percentage, it wouldn't be worth it. And we will wonder where all the good jobs went, why investors will look overseas, and the entrepreneurs will move somewhere else.

 

[Unclebaldrick]

I know quite a few people on welfare. Everyone one I know abuses it. Every single one. Funny how people can work hard under the table as long as it doesn't effect there welfare check. Or sell their food stamps for 50 on the dollar. Or fake illnesses to get disability but physically and mentally capable of working. I only know from my personal experiences in life and this is what I see with my own eyes.

And with your logic, why even try and be successful? If for every 10k you make, you take a higher percentage, it wouldn't be worth it. And we will wonder where all the good jobs went, why investors will look overseas, and the entrepreneurs will move somewhere else.

Awesome trope. Too bad you are making it up.

 

[kgp]

Awesome trope. Too bad you are making it up.

Again, an assumption with no grounds. You know nothing of me and the people I am talking about. See how easy it is to call someone a liar. Its 4 strokes on keyboard. Come at me with something intellectual or not at all.

 

[hanimmal]

I know quite a few people on welfare. Everyone one I know abuses it. Every single one. Funny how people can work hard under the table as long as it doesn't effect there welfare check. Or sell their food stamps for 50 on the dollar. Or fake illnesses to get disability but physically and mentally capable of working. I only know from my personal experiences in life and this is what I see with my own eyes.

I know quite a bit of people that do that too, but I know far far far more people who don't. That is the point, we are programed to look at the bad and amplify it right now in a way that is hard to actually think about the entire situation. Everything not in the Wealthy White Heterosexual Male Agenda is not a drag on the economy.

And with your logic, why even try and be successful? If for every 10k you make, you take a higher percentage, it wouldn't be worth it. And we will wonder where all the good jobs went, why investors will look overseas, and the entrepreneurs will move somewhere else.

Not at all, how taxes work is after you hit the next tier, so right at $200k, your next dollar is taxes 2% more, so you end up getting 65 cents vs the 67 cents per dollar you earned prior.

Nobody is going to say I am not going to earn an extra $10k because I will only keep $6k vs the $6.3k I would have earned under Trump.