Understanding and Calculating Nutrient PPM

2com

Well-Known Member
So I input the megacrop label values from their website

View attachment 4402655

into the Tools tab (Label Calculator Easy Mode) to get the PPM values for the product tab (hope I didn't fuck it up lol) I updated the product values as some of the numbers were off (the green box shows the PPM values that get pasted to the product tab. I may have found a bad label percentage listing the first time. Let me know how this correction works for you. Thanks so much for your help. Here is the updated version. I left the label values in the tools tab calculator for ya, you can just zero them out.

Here is the results

View attachment 4402646
That wouldn't surprise me, I did mention/question them on the fact there are (at least) two different labels. They explained that one was the "minimum" (like guaranteed minimum or something). Still...something might be off or wrong, on any one of our parts, lol.

I'll look at it shortly.
Thanks dude.
 

Renfro

Well-Known Member
3 - The "G" in G/Gal on the "Adds" page is fixed by a change made on the products page? Interesting.
Yeah you edit the product and it reflects in the adds tab. So if you have a specific gravity change to one of the liquid nutrient products that I left at g/Gal you can change the product to mL/Gal and it will show up in the adds tab. I setup those products so that the PPM values will multiply by the specific gravity number (currently set to 1).
 

Renfro

Well-Known Member
The matrix tab is where all the individual products multiplications occur (from the adds) and are then summed up to show on the results tabs.

By making it that way I made it so that one could theoretically add as many products as Excel has rows (minus 2 for the header and sums).
 

2com

Well-Known Member
1) MegaCrop probably used 10-7-18 as their main NPK (that's the 'highest' I remember seeing.

2) The products page has MegaCrop listed as G/Gal. The element values to the right of it give the elemental values of putting 1gram of MC into 1Gal of water from the “Results” tab. What is this page supposed to do? Just list the manufacturer listed numbers? N has 26.42008, P has 8.07081, K has 39.47635, etc…

This doesn’t seem right though. When I look at another dry powder, MaxiBloom, on the products pages, it’s values for N, P, K seem to be actually *correct* to the packaging - even though it also says “G/Gal” in column B next to it. (*EDIT* Nope - MaxiB doesn't match pagkaging, lol. I didn't see past N and some of P.)

Does this help figure anything out? Lol. Does MegaCrop's specific gravity have to be set to 1 or something. There’s a note about that in the “tools” tab. Though, MaxiB doesn't have specific gravity set to anything in Product page.

I haven't looked at newer v. yet. Checking it out now.
 

Renfro

Well-Known Member
2) The products page has MegaCrop listed as G/Gal. The element values to the right of it give the elemental values of putting 1gram of MC into 1Gal of water from the “Results” tab. What is this page supposed to do? Just list the manufacturer listed numbers? N has 26.42008, P has 8.07081, K has 39.47635, etc…
The products tab simply lists the PPM values for 1 gram per gallon for each product, those values are obtained by using the calculator in the tools tab and inputting the label percentages. Then when you input an add those values in the products tab are multiplied by the add value in the adds tab, this happens in the matrix tab and is summed up for all added products, then those values are used in the results tab. Is that what you are asking?
 

Renfro

Well-Known Member
To add a product you use the tools tab "label calculator easy mode" to input the products manufacturer label percentages then copy and paste the values only from the green box to the new product row in the products tab.

If the product is a liquid you may calculate a specific gravity by weighing a sample and put that in the "label calculator easy mode" in the tools tab with the label percentages to get corrected values for your product, copy and paste those values to the product row in the products tab. Then you can set the product units to mL/gal in the products tab and measure inputs by mL instead of grams.
 

2com

Well-Known Member
The products tab simply lists the PPM values for 1 gram per gallon for each product, those values are obtained by using the calculator in the tools tab and inputting the label percentages. Then when you input an add those values in the products tab are multiplied by the add value in the adds tab, this happens in the matrix tab and is summed up for all added products, then those values are used in the results tab. Is that what you are asking?
Yes and no, haha. I benefited from that explanation and I think I follow that. I was thinking maybe the fact it was showing G/Gal, and those values was the issue because I thought the product page was for "product label/ingredient listed values" which I realize it isn't now, haha. Thanks. That's cool, lots of work man, so much typing and data entry. You must be good with hotkeys, shortcuts, etc. Lol.

Please note that I am working with @ChiefRunningPhist to correct the calcium nitrate product values. I will have an update when completed.
Sweet.
Also, I just noticed that what ended up causing some of the confusion here with multiple label values/differences is exactly what confused me to where I asked GL about it. :)
 

2com

Well-Known Member
To add a product you use the tools tab "label calculator easy mode" to input the products manufacturer label percentages then copy and paste the values only from the green box to the new product row in the products tab.

If the product is a liquid you may calculate a specific gravity by weighing a sample and put that in the "label calculator easy mode" in the tools tab with the label percentages to get corrected values for your product, copy and paste those values to the product row in the products tab. Then you can set the product units to mL/gal in the products tab and measure inputs by mL instead of grams.
Cool, I got it now. I like it.
Dope.

So what are you and Chief working on the calcium and something else in regards to? Oh, different product (calnit, you mentioned before). OK.

These are from greenleaf calc. 1g/1L
Manganese 0.3700, Zinc 0.5900, Copper 0.4800, Boron 0.2200, Silicon 0.7800

These are still off compared to "Results" (I meant to say that the other way around). Some of them look fixed/better I think. Calcium is 71.
 

Renfro

Well-Known Member
So what are you and Chief working on the calcium and something else in regards to?
I was working from the label percentages that Jacks had listed (15.5% N and 18% Ca I believe) and he pointed out the molar numbers (17.072% N and 24.425% Ca). Asking him for some clarification to see if I got it right with those.
 

Renfro

Well-Known Member
Cool, I got it now. I like it.
Dope.

So what are you and Chief working on the calcium and something else in regards to? Oh, different product (calnit, you mentioned before). OK.

These are from greenleaf calc. 1g/1L
Manganese 0.3700, Zinc 0.5900, Copper 0.4800, Boron 0.2200, Silicon 0.7800
We could skip the label percentage calculations entirely if you trust their PPM numbers. Have their calculator calculate for 1 gram per gallon. Put those ppm values in the product tab for the megacrop. Walla. You will have to unprotect the products tab by right clicking it and hitting unprotect. That has no password its just to prevent accidental edits of existing products.
 

2com

Well-Known Member
We could skip the label percentage calculations entirely if you trust their PPM numbers. Have their calculator calculate for 1 gram per gallon. Put those ppm values in the product tab for the megacrop. Walla. You will have to unprotect the products tab by right clicking it and hitting unprotect. That has no password its just to prevent accidental edits of existing products.
When I compare the the values from the greenleaf calculator (at 1g/1Gal) to the values in the product tab they're almost spot on. I summed the megacrop row in product tab, it's 111.3 PPM. The greenleaf calc's total is 110.6985 PPM.
The problem is the values in the Results (Liters) table.

Ok, I'm gettin' tired, lol.

I think in the products page, there might have been an input error or two(?)..:

0.0584 was entered twice; once for Boron, and then for Copper maybe? Copper should be something close to 0.1272 (according to GLcalc). But label does say .02% each, does that mean their ppm values would both be the same though, or not, because of their elemental weights or periodic table differences?

1.55878 was entered for Zinc. GLcalc has 0.1563
0.1849 was entered for Manganese. GLcalc has 0.0980

-------

Ok, checking the Easy Mode entries...

Everything looks ok up to Zinc. 0.5900% was put in, it should be 0.0590%. So hopefully that'll fix that one.
Is it possible one of the formulas in the cell(s) for boron or copper is wrong? Or something/calc in the matrix or something like that?

(I asked GL too).

:)
 

2com

Well-Known Member
Oh.. as soon as I open this I go straight to put "1" into megacrop on adds tab and I get this.

[Nutrient Calculator v2.04.xlsm]The Matrix:
The cell or chart you are trying to change is protected and therefore read-only.To remove protection, on the Tools menu, point to Protection, and then click Unprotect Sheet. You may be prompted for a password.

Only can click OK, Click Ok. It does same thing, until you select another tab/sheet and come back to adds. Weird.

Never did it before. Now does it everytime I open the file.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Your going to get N issues by not accounting for N source..
Type of N used....

Urea's
Ammonia's
etc, etc, etc.

Keep in mind that the first 2 break down and you can get loss of value. This happens in the media by several ways and effects to it. This can be as much as a factor > 30%

Some types of N are far better for young plants then older growth plants and vice versa.

Urea sourced N is not stable at all......Not a preferred N source for cannabis.

Use of sulfate sources for K and Mg change flavor/terp profiles...

Some Ca sources are better for soil/media pH stabilizing, over plant avail. I prefer my Ca source that way. Longer term soil pH control, while still supplying enough Ca to the plant

Now we haven't even talked about mineral (micro) source and amounts to balance..... This can be very tricky. Each can block another and then cause all sorts of issues.
I say this because your chart has Fe and Mn way out of relationship values for cannabis..... Fe is too high and Mn too low.. that relationship mismatch can cause some micro blocking and lead to pH issues to.

Sometimes it's better to meter elemental ppm soil values,,,,,,to make the proper balance.

Yet it is easy to get a balanced mineral source in several natural forms and from places like Build A Soil.

You NEED to be savvy on your elemental source choice's....
 

2com

Well-Known Member
Your going to get N issues by not accounting for N source..
Type of N used....

Urea's
Ammonia's
etc, etc, etc.

Keep in mind that the first 2 break down and you can get loss of value. This happens in the media by several ways and effects to it. This can be as much as a factor > 30%

Some types of N are far better for young plants then older growth plants and vice versa.

Urea sourced N is not stable at all......Not a preferred N source for cannabis.

Use of sulfate sources for K and Mg change flavor/terp profiles...

Some Ca sources are better for soil/media pH stabilizing, over plant avail. I prefer my Ca source that way. Longer term soil pH control, while still supplying enough Ca to the plant

Now we haven't even talked about mineral (micro) source and amounts to balance..... This can be very tricky. Each can block another and then cause all sorts of issues.
I say this because your chart has Fe and Mn way out of relationship values for cannabis..... Fe is too high and Mn too low.. that relationship mismatch can cause some micro blocking and lead to pH issues to.

Sometimes it's better to meter elemental ppm soil values,,,,,,to make the proper balance.

Yet it is easy to get a balanced mineral source in several natural forms and from places like Build A Soil.

You NEED to be savvy on your elemental source choice's....
That's something I'd meant to add for a "want" for it as well, the types; NO4, NH3, and NH2. NO4 being the most desirable form (at least for the vast majority of peoples applications) - correct me if I'm wrong.

When you say "chart has Fe and Mn way out of relationship values for cannabis..... Fe is too high and Mn too low.. that relationship mismatch can cause some micro blocking and lead to pH issues to." I'm not quite sure what you suggest, Renfro isn't making formulas and ratios, just a spreadsheet that tells you what companies profiles are.
Unless you're just suggesting that he/we just give more detail on the types of "Cal" or "Mg" etc.?
 

2com

Well-Known Member
This is a cool online calculator (several tools) page https://manicbotanix.com/hydroponic-calculators/
The first tool like what's being duplicated here, profile calc. I like the format and extra lil tools. Theirs requires changing K2O and P2O5 to get their elemental values *before* using their calculator though. But they provide that (separate) calculator.
 

2com

Well-Known Member
I corrected the megacrop's Zinc number (on my copy of the sheet obviously)

I'd add the Various types of Nitrogen to all applicable areas if I knew how to, lol. I might give a try on one of the sheets but I'll def screw things up.
 

2com

Well-Known Member
Hey guys,
Hope your trimming is going well, Renfro.

I've been trying to study a bit of this stuff, and the math/logic.
So I understand ppm and mg/L are the same thing. But I can't seem to understand why this ppm formula isn't quite applying right compared to the first post in the writeup here.

PPM = grams of solute / grams of solution (therefore: mg/L = grams of solute / grams of solution ?)

In the first example, for CalNit. We take the amount of input in grams, multiply that by the label percentage decimal value, and that equals the amount in ppm (or mg/L) of that element in the solution for the amount we put in. Right?

I'm not quite sure why you too the amount in mg x label% = ppm. Is it only because you knew that using grams ("0.5g" instead of "500mg" would give you such a small number (in grams) that you'd want/need to multiply by 1000 to get milligrams anyway? Essentially, did you kinda just skip a step?

Only asking because I'm trying to relate this with what "appears to be" the 'standard/conventional' way of doing ppm calculations. I might just be confusing myself though.
Thanks.
Peace.
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
@2com this is my understanding...

PPM for hydroponics = (mg of element) ÷ (L of solution)

Mass ÷ Volume (essentially)

1L = 1,000ml
1ml of H2O = 1g
1g = 1,000mg
(1,000mg/1g) × (1g H2O/1ml) × (1,000ml/1L)
=
1,000,000mg of H2O in 1L
...
1mg of water takes up 1 millionth of the volume of 1L. So 1mg of water is only 1 part of the million it takes to create 1 liter, or, 1 mg of water is 1 part per million.

PPM compares the weight (in mg) of an element per L of solution,... to the weight of 1L of pure H2O (in mg). It's easier just understood as mg/L.




NPK = (g of element) ÷ (g of solution or mixture)

Mass ÷ Mass

NPK lists composition of elements by weight % of the total.


Example:
100g of "X" added to 1L of pure H2O

PPM:
100g "X" = 100,000mg of "X"
mg/L = 100,000
PPM of "X" = 100,000

NPK:
100g "X" + 1,000g H2O
=
1,100g total solution weight

(100g "X") ÷ (1,100g solution weight)
=
0.09; 9% "X"


EDIT:
Also, the % of P & K in NPK are actually inflated from the true elemental % P & K. For every 2 atoms of P they add the weight of 5 Oxygen atoms to it, and then for every 2 atoms of K they add the weight of 1 oxygen atom to it. So when you see a 10-10-10 fertilizer, there's 10% N by weight, but the 10% P and K is actually describing 10% P2O5, not 10% P, and the 10% K is actually describing 10% K2O, not 10% K.

They inflate the P & K because they were trying to create a labeling system that when the "NPK" values were all the same, that plants would have generally correct ratios of elemental N, and P, and K for growing despite the elemental N, and P, and K not necessarily being equal to each other in weight (like 10-10-10 is saying).

For NPK...
Elemental P is inflated by 2.2914
Elemental K is inflated by 1.2046
 
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