Universal Basic Income; 'bout time or batshit crazy?

[ttystikk]

https://steemit.com/socialism/@ekklesiagora/basic-income-under-libertarian-social-democracy-leads-to-fully-automated-luxury-communism

Many good ideas here. A few interpretations are incorrect in their details but in general this is a series of very good ideas taken to their logical conclusion.

 

[esh dov ets]

I can't help but disagree from an economics standpoint.

In the few places it was proposed/is planned it replaces all other forms of welfare.

If you gave people UBI and welfare inflation would skyrocket.

I know that's an argument used by right wingers against minimum wage increases but this is separate and what you propose is insanity.

it should not replace welfare. How does increasing the publics income threaten you? inflation is when prices go up. it happens when cost of production or business costs go up. it happens when supply is monopolized. it happens whenever the market will allow. why do you think it happens when wages are increased? how would taking care of the population cause inflation.
can you support the claim that welfare makes bad economic sense? why do nations continue to chase and gain economic growth while health and fulfillment deteriorate and are not considered important. why is invisible growth the bottom line instead of social and ecological security?

 

[ttystikk]

it should not replace welfare. How does increasing the publics income threaten you? inflation is when prices go up. it happens when cost of production or business costs go up. it happens when supply is monopolized. it happens whenever the market will allow. why do you think it happens when wages are increased? how would taking care of the population cause inflation.
can you support the claim that welfare makes bad economic sense? why do nations continue to chase and gain economic growth while health and fulfillment deteriorate and are not considered important. why is invisible growth the bottom line instead of social and ecological security?

I'm interested in how you consider welfare and a UBI to be different, and why one should not replace the other?

If you're suggesting that welfare is compensation for being out of work, analogous to unemployment compensation, why not just do that?

 

[ttystikk]

it should not replace welfare. How does increasing the publics income threaten you? inflation is when prices go up. it happens when cost of production or business costs go up. it happens when supply is monopolized. it happens whenever the market will allow. why do you think it happens when wages are increased? how would taking care of the population cause inflation.
can you support the claim that welfare makes bad economic sense? why do nations continue to chase and gain economic growth while health and fulfillment deteriorate and are not considered important. why is invisible growth the bottom line instead of social and ecological security?

Full employment and resultant wage increases are a historical cause of inflation.

I say historical because the Age of Automation is upon us and I'm not so sure this relationship will hold true going forward.

 

[esh dov ets]

Full employment and resultant wage increases are a historical cause of inflation.

I say historical because the Age of Automation is upon us and I'm not so sure this relationship will hold true going forward.

why is that? it tends to increase more than enough to compensate for the raised wage, nullifying it. if inflation is going to break our backs (is it?) and creating fair living conditions is going to cause inflation.. we need a new system. truth is it will not break capitalism or society , to have better living conditions. That is a lie , a false dichotomy where some of us can do ok and some must inevitably suffer. greater good is perverted to mean for the good of the rulers. propaganda gets support to this from unaware class traitors. To fascists good means good for some bad for others. economic growth is such a good.

 

[ttystikk]

why is that? it tends to increase more than enough to compensate for the raised wage, nullifying it. if inflation is going to break our backs (is it?) and creating fair living conditions is going to cause inflation.. we need a new system. truth is it will not break capitalism or society , to have better living conditions. That is a lie , a false dichotomy where some of us can do ok and some must inevitably suffer. greater good is perverted to mean for the good of the rulers. propaganda gets support to this from unaware class traitors. To fascists good means good for some bad for others. economic growth is such a good.

Rising wages leads to inflation because more money is chasing the same goods and services.

This is no longer true, because automation means there are ever more goods and services in spite of rising wages.

Inflation itself is bad for banks because it erodes their earnings.

If wages rise as fast as inflation, that means workers get the upper hand.

That's why banks have manipulated our system to restrain inflation rather than encourage full employment.

Inflation is only good for those with loans outstanding. It does no good for those who don't. Think of it as a benefit for those who can position themselves correctly, which certainly didn't include everyone.

 

[Enigma]

There is a reason I follow @ttystikk

 

[esh dov ets]

I'm interested in how you consider welfare and a UBI to be different, and why one should not replace the other?

If you're suggesting that welfare is compensation for being out of work, analogous to unemployment compensation, why not just do that?

what ever you want to call it.. i will say one form of assistance is not enough for those that need it. the number of people who need it is rising. the underclass is growing. each wealth status gap from the top down is growing. min. wage makes 1600- 1800 a mo. welfare , gr, ga, brings in about 300- 500 with half in food credit. ssi and or ssdi brings in about $900. if a person is working they can get less or none of these. these are not meant to be ubi, they are meant to bring the unfortunate and the disabled up to where the can live without a job , because they have trouble with being able to work. the max combination is ssi + ssdi for about $1800. that's if you are fortunate enough to be physically and mentally disabled. in many cases one disability is enough that someone can't work at all. some common cases are people who have chronic unemployment but ca't prove a disability. these people get 300-500 if they spend a couple days every once in a while, dealing with general assistance. $1800 is thin ice, any less is unmanageable. so a min wage worker is theoretically equal to a disabled person but not equal to a rich person economically or socially. if you add ubi both can maybe climb the later or sit more securely at the bottom. if you take away forms of assistance, you grow the underclass and put the disabled back into the underclass. do you see it ? welfare is inadequate supplements so less poor starve. social security is for those who can't work.living on social security requires extreme budgeting and is inadequate for what it is meant to do. ubi is meant for everybody who makes under the amount required to live semi decent. assistance recipients are well below that threshold. does that answer your question? it does. do you see it now?

 

[Lucky Luke]

A person is earning $10 an hr and with that money he can buy 10 bottles of milk

Time passes and the same person is still earning $10 an hr but can only buy 5 bottles of milk due to real world wage erosion, he is actually earning less money.


Min wage linked to inflation means he is now earning enough to buy 10 bottles of milk. His hrly rate has gone up but in reality it buys the same.

 

[esh dov ets]

Rising wages leads to inflation because more money is chasing the same goods and services.

This is no longer true, because automation means there are ever more goods and services in spite of rising wages.

Inflation itself is bad for banks because it erodes their earnings.

If wages rise as fast as inflation, that means workers get the upper hand.

That's why banks have manipulated our system to restrain inflation rather than encourage full employment.

Inflation is only good for those with loans outstanding. It does no good for those who don't. Think of it as a benefit for those who can position themselves correctly, which certainly didn't include everyone.

there is no shortage of goods. the markets create fake scarcity.they produce enough to waste. mean while they ignore that there are finite resources and drain the planet.
the banks cause boom and bust so why should we care about the top 2 % 's bottom line.

 

[esh dov ets]

A person is earning $10 an hr and with that money he can buy 10 bottles of milk

Time passes and the same person is still earning $10 an hr but can only buy 5 bottles of milk due to real world wage erosion, he is actually earning less money.


Min wage linked to inflation means he is now earning enough to buy 10 bottles of milk. His hrly rate has gone up but in reality it buys the same.

But he is not earning 10 bottle he is still earning 5 so wage erosion and inflation go hand in hand. why is it bad if he can buy 10 bottles?

 

[esh dov ets]

A person is earning $10 an hr and with that money he can buy 10 bottles of milk

Time passes and the same person is still earning $10 an hr but can only buy 5 bottles of milk due to real world wage erosion, he is actually earning less money.


Min wage linked to inflation means he is now earning enough to buy 10 bottles of milk. His hrly rate has gone up but in reality it buys the same.

oh yeah. that's another definition of inflation.

 

[visajoe1]

Minimum wage isnt meant to be a middle class family of 4 supporting wage. Thinking like that just sets people up for failure.

Minimum wage is entry level work. Mowing lawns, working retail, fast food, etc. These arent skilled jobs, anyone that can fog a mirror can do them. Its just supply and demand, but for labor in this case. The supply of people able to do this work is very high, so the value is low.

Earn more skills (remember, this is entry level) and experience and you earn better pay and opportunities. you have to work for it though

Basic income will never happen in the US, so put your efforts into something else

 

[ttystikk]

Minimum wage isnt meant to be a middle class family of 4 supporting wage. Thinking like that just sets people up for failure.

Minimum wage is entry level work. Mowing lawns, working retail, fast food, etc. These arent skilled jobs, anyone that can fog a mirror can do them. Its just supply and demand, but for labor in this case. The supply of people able to do this work is very high, so the value is low.

Earn more skills (remember, this is entry level) and experience and you earn better pay and opportunities. you have to work for it though

Basic income will never happen in the US, so put your efforts into something else

Right. Doing entry level work means it's okay for people to not get their needs met while still providing a valuable service.

Pay a living wage, automate the job or fucking close your doors. It's time to stop justifying the exploitation of unskilled work.

 

[Lucky Luke]

Minimum wage isnt meant to be a middle class family of 4 supporting wage. Thinking like that just sets people up for failure.

Minimum wage is entry level work. Mowing lawns, working retail, fast food, etc. These arent skilled jobs, anyone that can fog a mirror can do them. Its just supply and demand, but for labor in this case. The supply of people able to do this work is very high, so the value is low.

Earn more skills (remember, this is entry level) and experience and you earn better pay and opportunities. you have to work for it though

Basic income will never happen in the US, so put your efforts into something else

I mow lawns...i charge more than you think..A lot more..

People earning a decent min wage spend money..spending money drives the economy creating a bigger tax revenue and also jobs.

My wife also does some cleaning..whilst not earning as much as me she does charge $35 and hr. What was that about low skill = low pay?

 

[visajoe1]

Right. Doing entry level work means it's okay for people to not get their needs met while still providing a valuable service.

Pay a living wage, automate the job or fucking close your doors. It's time to stop justifying the exploitation of unskilled work.

ill just follow the law, but you're free to pay your employees however much you want. how many is that again?

 

[visajoe1]

I mow lawns...i charge more than you think..A lot more..

People earning a decent min wage spend money..spending money drives the economy creating a bigger tax revenue and also jobs.

so you'd pay $15 for a big mac so the dude fuckin up your order can make $20 while he pushes a button? tough sell there bud

 

[ttystikk]

ill just follow the law, but you're free to pay your employees however much you want. how many is that again?

I'll take that as agreement.

 

[Lucky Luke]

so you'd pay $15 for a big mac so the dude fuckin up your order can make $20 while he pushes a button? tough sell there bud

lol..we already been there.

Min wage in Australia is approx $20 an hr.

Big mac in Australia is 20% smaller than America but is also 20% cheaper..so the price is the SAME but the avg wage is DOUBLE...meaning they can sell MORE big Macs cause more people can afford them..

 

[ttystikk]

so you'd pay $15 for a big mac so the dude fuckin up your order can make $20 while he pushes a button? tough sell there bud

Funny how Australian minimum wages are well over twice that of the US, but Big Macs still cost the same. Why?

Because labor is a tiny fraction of the cost of producing that burger; there's building rent, utilities, food cost, marketing, compliance, taxes, etc.

Yet if people made twice what they do at minimum wage, there would be more customers and McDonald's would see increased profits!

This is why the right wing's economics are all wrong.