Stealth flowering box woes

[phillypete]

That is what my plants would look like if I put them in my new stealth flowering box! (on fire) My wife is not going to have me growing and so for one last ditch attempt before I leave her and move to a medical state I thought I would try a 12/12 from seed stealth box.


I had a box I have used for vegging in the past -- 24" wide x 12" deep x 36" tall. It was equipped with two 60CFM fans and between 2 and 6 26W CFL's (depending on what was in there). Somehow by reading a bunch of posts in here my desire overtook my sense and I decided I could probably run my 400W HPS in that box. So I spent all morning long rebuilding the box, reconstructing a bake-a-round cool tube, rewiring the fans, getting everything all together.....and then I test fire it.


From 78 to 115 degrees in 35 minutes. I figured I had proved my point enough at that moment and turned the heat (light) off. It is still 87 in there with no light and the fans still spinning away.


What a bummer!


Let me rewind though.....part of my thinking is that it will be cooling off soon and if I could keep the temps at a maximum of about 30 degrees above ambient then everything would be basically alright. I was going to get a temperature switch to turn the HPS off when it got over 90 and run a supplemental CFL or two to keep the light on while the light cooled off (and then the switch would kick the light back on after being under the setpoint for the set amount of time). It would be like clouds on a sunny day.


Oh god was it bright in there though, too bad the lights could only run about 10 minutes out of an hour. I may just keep the thing together and wait for nightime and see if I can find out exactly how high above ambient the thing will go before it hits a steady state.


Oh yeah, the box is currently located outside in a garage (which is why I was thinking if it ever gets down to the 50's maybe this idea would
work???)


I realize that I need more fannage, but that blows the whole point of it being stealth. If I hook a 200+ CFM fan to it (which is probably what I need) it makes too much noise and makes it hard to put up against a wall,
etc.


I don't want to use CFL's if I don't have to.


I'm planning on running Afghani, and it was going to be SWC (shallow water culture), but I'm not so sure if the temps are going to be constantly in the 80's. I was actually thinking at first that I might need a heater to keep the nutrients warm.....my wasn't that stupid.


I hate life and don't have anything to look forward to when I'm not growing. Growing and talking about growing, helping others out, and helping advance cannabis are all I care about --not to mention that cannabis is the only medicine I can take that helps me more than it hurts me. I get really pissed off at the world when I realize that the only thing I want to do is against the law and against the mores of general society.


Okay, enough of my rant, I realize that there wasn't much of a point to this, but this is all I've got right now so try to bear with me.

PP

 

[specialkayme]

Hey PP, sorry to hear about your troubles. I have a few suggestions for you though. Number 1 - get a bigger cab. If you don't want to do that, lets move on to Number 2.

2. Switch from a 400 watt to a 250 watt HPS, or even a 50-100 watt security HPS you get at HD or Lowes. I know you already have the 400 and don't want to buy anything else, but that is just a really big light for such a small space.

3. Get a bigger fan. I know you don't want to do this, for the reasons stated above, but I think I might be able to help you out a little. First of all get one of these: Soler & Palau Commercial Centrifugal, Axial, Propeller, Exhaust and Supply Fans - Soler and Palau - HVACQuick.com for more information read: https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/61475-these-fans-real-deal.html
The fans really are sweet, with a high CFM rating, a very low noise opperation, and a high resistance to static presure (kinks and bends in the ducting). If you still think they are operating too loudly, you can use insulated ducting Fantech Silencers and Insulated Flexible Duct - Fantech LD4 LD5 LD6 LD8 LD10 LD12 LD16 FIDT4 FIDT5 FIDT6 FIDT8 FIDT10 - HVACQuick.com or a duct muffler. Personally I think the insulated ducting along with the Mixvent fan (probably a TD100x or TD125 would work) would work wonders, but if it still isn't quiet for you, use one of those duct mufflers. The duct mufflers and the insulated ducting only really helps you out with that 'wooshing' noise that the fan will make, which most people contribute to the noise that the Mixvent fans make. Other than that wooshing noise, the fans are really quiet. But if you are worried about the fan itself, look into sound deadening mat.
In addition to that, this stuff works wonders: 25 Sq Ft Fatmat Car Sound Deadener + Dynamat Roller - eBay (item 370086187379 end time Sep-22-08 20:34:14 PDT) or you could go with the name brand product (more expensive but performs roughly the same) Dynamat Xtreme Bulk Pack (Entire Car)-10455 36 sq. ft. - eBay (item 180287585361 end time Sep-16-08 13:31:56 PDT)
If you cover the area that the fan makes contact with the cab at, usually in two or three layers, it will help out alot. Personally I cover the whole inside of the cab with the stuff then paint it white. It helps reduce that ratteling sound that a cab sometimes makes. If it works for your car, it will do wonders for your cab.

I think that planning on your operating temps running roughly 30 degrees above ambient is just asking for problems. But that's just my two cents.

I hope that the above ideas at least helps you out a little.

 

[Hayduke]

Sorry about the struggles. I am thinking of upgrading from cfl's to a 400w hps since I found a refurbished lamp, ballast and reflector for $99. My cab is 2x3x4 so it is a little overkill I am fighting temps with 10-42w cfls and a 265 cfm. Stealth is not too critical for me (wife left years ago, I wouldn't be able to grow enough for her anyway, and my daughter likes Dad to have meds cuz I am nicer!

Anyway is your 400w have an attached ballast?

Thanks and good luck with your box

 

[phillypete]

Well I tore out the HPS and went back to CFL although it is in a new configuration to give me about 4-6" more vert grow space. I'm not so excited about growing under CFL, but hey it's all the rage with the kiddies these days right?

Hey Hayduke!

I like your style. lol The ballast is detached and definitely NOT in the cab, I was running a homemade cool tube with a 60CFM 4" inline little cute, quiet fan. Thanks for the post.

Specialkayme: Besides for using/assisting other grow rooms (don't even get me started on that) I actually used to grow out of a specially "designed" closet which has since been mostly repaired back to normal household specs. 2' x 3' x 8' with intake coming from another storage room that doesn't get heated and exhausting through carbon scrubber into the furnace intake area. After my "experiences" with other people's grow rooms I made my house grow-free for a couple of years and "fixed" the closet. Since I usually grow a number of things my wife hadn't really noticed that there were smaller odd-leafed plants growing amongst the tomatoes, peppers, herbs, etc. in my indoor area, but I brought the subject up to her and she freaked out. I had all males anyway for this last little grow, but I was trying to get to the point of saving some pollen, my scrubber went out and my whole house reeked....I got all paranoid and in a daze I tore everything up at 3am last Wednesday. So....I was hoping to be able to tear up a little box and make an oz or two of meds every couple of months (I don't use much even when I can get it).

2. I was thinking about this, but at that point I might as well just use CFL's right? The thing I like about using CFL's versus HPS is that I can always add or subtract or move around the flors. vs. 1 HPS that is either there or not.

3. Thanks for all the links, I have been looking for something different in the way of fans, and I will definitely research these. I actually use scabbed up pond liner (thick rubber) for soundproofing and it works fairly well.

Like I said I will try the CFL's and if that doesn't work I'm moving.

Thanks y'all

PP

 

[specialkayme]

Well I tore out the HPS and went back to CFL although it is in a new configuration to give me about 4-6" more vert grow space. I'm not so excited about growing under CFL, but hey it's all the rage with the kiddies these days right?

Hey Hayduke!

I like your style. lol The ballast is detached and definitely NOT in the cab, I was running a homemade cool tube with a 60CFM 4" inline little cute, quiet fan. Thanks for the post.

Specialkayme: Besides for using/assisting other grow rooms (don't even get me started on that) I actually used to grow out of a specially "designed" closet which has since been mostly repaired back to normal household specs. 2' x 3' x 8' with intake coming from another storage room that doesn't get heated and exhausting through carbon scrubber into the furnace intake area. After my "experiences" with other people's grow rooms I made my house grow-free for a couple of years and "fixed" the closet. Since I usually grow a number of things my wife hadn't really noticed that there were smaller odd-leafed plants growing amongst the tomatoes, peppers, herbs, etc. in my indoor area, but I brought the subject up to her and she freaked out. I had all males anyway for this last little grow, but I was trying to get to the point of saving some pollen, my scrubber went out and my whole house reeked....I got all paranoid and in a daze I tore everything up at 3am last Wednesday. So....I was hoping to be able to tear up a little box and make an oz or two of meds every couple of months (I don't use much even when I can get it).

2. I was thinking about this, but at that point I might as well just use CFL's right? The thing I like about using CFL's versus HPS is that I can always add or subtract or move around the flors. vs. 1 HPS that is either there or not.

3. Thanks for all the links, I have been looking for something different in the way of fans, and I will definitely research these. I actually use scabbed up pond liner (thick rubber) for soundproofing and it works fairly well.

Like I said I will try the CFL's and if that doesn't work I'm moving.

Thanks y'all

PP

Haha, well this sure was a short lived thread. But whatever, as long as it works for you.

As far as your scrubber breaking and you freaking out and chopping everything up, I really feel for you, but that's why as far as odor goes I make no expense. I have a scrubber and an ozone generator that runs regularly, and a jar of ona just waiting in case the other two break down. I'm kinda paranoid about smells though, so who knows.

As far as using floros instead of an HID, if you are already set in yoru ways, then feel free to continue, however, to quote the GrowFAQ:
"10 forty watt fluorescent bulbs use the same amount of energy as a 400 watt HID, but produce far less light. Since they use the same amount of energy but produce less light, the remaining must be given off as heat. Contrary to how it may first appear, fluoros actually run hotter than the equivalent wattage of HID-- they just disperse the heat over a wider area."

So while your 6 CFLs might seem to produce less heat, if you were to switch to an equivilent of an HID, say a 100 watt HPS, you would be using LESS heat and providing your plants with MORE light, regardless of wherever you positioned them in yoru cab.

I've never been a big fan of growing with CFLs, so maybe you shouldn't take my word for it, but it's just something about all of the 12 year olds with bag seed and 2 cfls in their closet that just frustrates me. I'm all about them supplying themselves, but for some reason these are usually the same people that are getting caught and giving everyone else a bad name by doing unethical things.

Alright, my rant is over. Good luck PP, I wish you the best.

 

[phillypete]

Yeah, maybe I'll change my mind and rip the guts out of a security light, but I have spent a full 8 hours building and tweaking and I guess I just didn't really think hard enough about using a different bulb in my cool tube. At this point it would only take about an hour to switch and I just started some seeds this afternoon so I have some time to think about it.

Hopefully other people will read the info about the CFL vs. HID, I don't think many people realize that. I do, but I like the idea of having the option of going down to 2 bulbs if you get a strange spell of warm weather and really need to cut the heat down (it's hard to split an hps).

I know what you mean about the whole CFL crew, that is one of my primary objections to it! (growing with them) I use shop lights in my "official" grow room and they work well and they have worked well for many people for many years so I don't get hung up about them as much as the CFL's. I guess I am officially getting old.

Thanks for your input and sharing the info you have with the world -- I surely appreciate it.

PP

 

[phillypete]

So just because I don't have anything else to do, I'm posting the before and after pictures of my little box and I didn't bother taking any of the 3rd generation pics.

The first picture shows the $40 (with lights and fans) veg/mother/clone box that I used a lot a few years back. It actually works pretty good with just those 2 lights and then using overturned pots or whatever to adjust the height of the plants underneath. I was trying to see if I had any pictures of it in action, but I was "smart" enough to permanently delete all of that. I'm really glad that I held onto the box for some reason.

The 2nd generation still needed a little bit of tidying up and detail work, but it turns out that didn't matter since there was no way I could control the heat.

3rd generation is exactly the same as 2nd with cfl's mounted to a power strip suspended from the ceiling (gaining a few inches of space).

4th generation will be the same as 2nd but with a 150W HPS bulb in the tube replacing the 400W (thanks specialkayme for talking sense into me, I've been wanting a smaller "weapon" for a while anyway). HTG has a remote ballast version for the same price as the security light so I think I'm going to go with that even though they ripped me once (overcharged) when I was in the retail store (didn't look at the receipt until I was a couple hundred miles further down the road). And no, I didn't drive all the way there just to go to the store.

I thank the community for its continuin support and wish you all the best,

PP

 

[Jolly G' the Giant]

just curious. How does the air get in and out of the cab. Are there vents above the fans. It seems they are contained inside the cab when the doors are closed. Are there intake ports somewhere? I don't see any on the bottom.

 

[phillypete]

There is a "false floor" on the bottom and there are holes around the perimeter of the floor. Also on 2nd gen there is a fan pulling up through a larger hole in the back corner.

Outflow on the 1st generation was through just the passive outtake hole. I know it seems stupid, but with the separate area above the fans in the top, the area above the fans would be really hot, but the bottom would stay cooler.

On 2nd generation extraction is through the open end of the cool tube and then out the back.

 

[Jolly G' the Giant]

the bottom ones; are they the six holes I see in the floor? Maybe they are not large enough. I run something similar, and have no issue with heat. It runs about 2 degrees higher than ambient.
cab: 24"x16"x36" 400w mh
2 4" intake fans (lg case fans)
1 outlet 220 cfm pulling through diy cool tube

 

[phillypete]

Yeah, the 220cfm is the key, and I am rolling stealth mode so I gotta use these quiet fans and don't have the room to install it stealthily either. Thanks for your input though, your case looks sweet. How much grow height do you have in there? It looks like the light is taking up quite a bit.

On the 2nd gen the holes in the floor are bigger and there is also a 3" hole with a 60CFM case fan sucking air in from the false floor.

Thanks for sharing Jolly G!

PP

 

[Hayduke]

Hopefully other people will read the info about the CFL vs. HID, I don't think many people realize that. I do, but I like the idea of having the option of going down to 2 bulbs if you get a strange spell of warm weather and really need to cut the heat down (it's hard to split an hps).

I know what you mean about the whole CFL crew, that is one of my primary objections to it! (growing with them)

Thanks for your input and sharing the info you have with the world -- I surely appreciate it.

PP

Make sense about the extra energy as heat. I think I am switching out all that money in cfls for this:
Econo 400w HPS with White Reflector - Inside Sun

just trying to decide on chrome vs white reflector and whether refurbished is a good risk. I have spent more than this on hot ass cfls

I am already old, and can't afford a corvette, so maybe cfls are my early midlife crisis? Still nervous about heat maybe passive intake not enough?

 

[phillypete]

Hayduke: That looks like a great deal. I would go with the white reflector, some of those cheap chrome dealies will throw wicked hot spots. The 400 gets hotter than you can imagine though. Hell, the new 150 gets wicked hot! I was hoping that it would run cooler, but I seriously think it is hotter than an equivalent 10 26W CFL's (lumen-wise) although the penetration (huh-huh) is much better as you can really throw some distance off of that light.

That's what I liked about the 400 - it looked like there was a spotlight going in every direction. It is really hot though and I think more beginning growers need to be aware of this fact. Everybody wants more power, more lumens, more buds, but if you can't grow anything because of heat issues - lumens don't mean squat.

 

[Hayduke]

Hayduke: That looks like a great deal. I would go with the white reflector, some of those cheap chrome dealies will throw wicked hot spots. The 400 gets hotter than you can imagine though. Hell, the new 150 gets wicked hot! I was hoping that it would run cooler, but I seriously think it is hotter than an equivalent 10 26W CFL's (lumen-wise) although the penetration (huh-huh) is much better as you can really throw some distance off of that light.

That's what I liked about the 400 - it looked like there was a spotlight going in every direction. It is really hot though and I think more beginning growers need to be aware of this fact. Everybody wants more power, more lumens, more buds, but if you can't grow anything because of heat issues - lumens don't mean squat.

Thanks for your thoughts on chrome vs white, the score is now tied 1 to 1. I am definitely concerned about hot spots with the chrome. Still trying to decide on cooling, I think I probably need an air-cooled hood.

When I started with the cfl's I also thought that I could get lots of lumens with more bulbs, however I believe this has been proved false with a light meter. The lumens from each bulb are not additive like watts.

 

[-=4:20=-Guy]

Make sense about the extra energy as heat. I think I am switching out all that money in cfls for this:
Econo 400w HPS with White Reflector - Inside Sun

Better link for HID lighting, High Tech Garden Supply

Best econo 400W High Tech Garden Supply

So after many years of growing and always trying the new fads I have a little experience with different types of lighting.

Florescent Tubes -
Great for clones, Good for veg, Suck for flower

Compact Florescent Light (CFL) -
Great for clones, Good for veg, Works for flower

Standard HPS -
Overkill for clones, Works for veg, Great for flower

Horticulture HPS (or 1/3 veg spectrum & 2/3 flower spectrum)
Overkill for clones, Good for veg, Perfect for flower

MH -
Overkill for clones, Great for veg, Works for flower

 

[Hayduke]

Better link for HID lighting, High Tech Garden Supply

Best econo 400W High Tech Garden Supply

So after many years of growing and always trying the new fads I have a little experience with different types of lighting.

Florescent Tubes -
Great for clones, Good for veg, Suck for flower

Compact Florescent Light (CFL) -
Great for clones, Good for veg, Works for flower

Standard HPS -
Overkill for clones, Works for veg, Great for flower

Horticulture HPS (or 1/3 veg spectrum & 2/3 flower spectrum)
Overkill for clones, Good for veg, Perfect for flower

MH -
Overkill for clones, Great for veg, Works for flower

Great info! Thank you. I was also leaning towards the HTG as the reflector and ballast look better, and not refurbished.

In keeping with phillyPete's topic: I am looking at air cooled hoods to add to the HTG set up. Any suggestions?
My box is 2x3x4, probably too small for the 400w? A also have a small window air conditioner I could use.
4:20guy your room looks awesome! (are you the uni-bomber?)

 

[-=4:20=-Guy]

Great info! Thank you. I was also leaning towards the HTG as the reflector and ballast look better, and not refurbished.

In keeping with phillyPete's topic: I am looking at air cooled hoods to add to the HTG set up. Any suggestions?
My box is 2x3x4, probably too small for the 400w? A also have a small window air conditioner I could use.
4:20guy your room looks awesome! (are you the uni-bomber?)

They have air cooled hoods available so you dont have to buy two hoods,

You are right about 400 being a bit much but if you CAN put that window A/C directly on the wall next to the girls AND get the Euro Reflector - +$59.00 add on to the system and I would say it should be a go!

Also note that you should get the AgroMax 250 Watt HPS Bulb - +$35.00
This will give you more blue light that will keep stretching down and let you veg with the same bulb.

Total price Price: $211.95

 

[phillypete]

That is great advice from 420 guy...as long as you can handle the heat. This was basically the arrangement I started out with. The cheap 400W light I bought from there in 2005 is still going strong.

The euro reflector needs ventilation to really make it "work" so you will also have to have a fan and some ducting to pull the heat out of it if you don't have this already. I wouldn't really recommend the el cheapo inline duct fans, but they will work.

Thanks everybody for continuing to add information to this thread.

PP

 

[Hayduke]

That is great advice from 420 guy...as long as you can handle the heat. This was basically the arrangement I started out with. The cheap 400W light I bought from there in 2005 is still going strong.

The euro reflector needs ventilation to really make it "work" so you will also have to have a fan and some ducting to pull the heat out of it if you don't have this already. I wouldn't really recommend the el cheapo inline duct fans, but they will work.

Thanks everybody for continuing to add information to this thread.

PP

Yeah that was my next question, whether this fan would really work? High Tech Garden Supply

I have a 265cfm ecoplus blower (in use) and a 50cfm bath exhaust (not on box now). If the inline fan would actually cool the bulb, I was thinking of putting bath fan back on and have it vent on a timer or temp controller, mount the window ac, use co2, and save the 265 cfm for the future veg/mom/clone box. The euro reflector does look like a better purchase than the cooltube. I think the $211 is for the 250hps though.

 

[-=4:20=-Guy]

Yeah that was my next question, whether this fan would really work? High Tech Garden Supply

I have a 265cfm ecoplus blower (in use) and a 50cfm bath exhaust (not on box now). If the inline fan would actually cool the bulb, I was thinking of putting bath fan back on and have it vent on a timer or temp controller, mount the window ac, use co2, and save the 265 cfm for the future veg/mom/clone box. The euro reflector does look like a better purchase than the cooltube. I think the $211 is for the 250hps though.

For the fan. I got the same type of inline fan in the 8" version and it didnt work for MY lighting exhaust. So I added a second axial fan for my lights because I combined them together in anticipation of the inline being more powerfull. I then used the 8" booster on the line that comes from my A/C so the girls allways have air blown over them.
The situation was this. My 1000W hood jumped 20 degrees (to 160) when I went from a single axial fan running just it to the booster running the 1000W & the 250W. when the booster was taken out and the axial fans put in its place the temp on the 1000W went down 10 degrees (130) from original temp (140).

Ya your right I did quote the 250W crap sorry.

Or not the 400W is only $198.95 with the same options.