How many times can you clone?

rob333

Well-Known Member
I

I am growing a few clones from seeds that my plants produced back in 2011. I grew out several until I found a good producer with great yields. I like consistency. I still love to grow from seed, but only as part of the hunt for the perfect plant to clone.
every cannabis plant is a good yeilder every cannabis plant is the perfect strain all it comes down to is thc and cbd which strain carrys the most of what it comes down to how you grow
 

cindysid

Well-Known Member
every cannabis plant is a good yeilder every cannabis plant is the perfect strain all it comes down to is thc and cbd which strain carrys the most of what it comes down to how you grow
If you believe that, then you haven't been growing long. Some genotypes of some strains are lousy producers no matter what, but have great potency, and others are great producers but lack potency. Other factors like terpenes can also greatly vary between different plants produced from the same strain's seeds. I have been growing Holy Grail for awhile (hubby loves it). I grew from a single seed and the plant that I had been growing was my poorest producer; beautiful healthy plants but lousy bud to leaf ratio. I decided to change things up and plant more seeds to get a better genotype. I have one now that is much better in every way grown under identical conditions.
 
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rob333

Well-Known Member
If you believe that, then you haven't been growing long. Some genotypes of some strains are lousy producers no matter what, but have great potency, and others are great producers but lack potency. Other factors like terpenes can also greatly vary between different plants produced from the same strain's seeds. I have been growing Holy Grail for awhile (hubby loves it). I grew from a single seed and the plant that I had been growing was my poorest producer; beautiful healthy plants buy lousy bud to leaf ratio. I decided to change things up and plant more seeds to get a better genotype. I have one now that is much better in every way grown under identical conditions.
12 years mate dont tell me about strains i have grown more plants then u have had hot dinners so i no a good strain
 

cindysid

Well-Known Member
12 years mate dont tell me about strains i have grown more plants then u have had hot dinners so i no a good strain
I'm not your "mate"...thank god!.(I'm female)...and I have grown a few myself in addition to being a Florida Master Gardener for over 20 years. Your theories have no basis in fact. The fact that you seem to be borderline illiterate may be a contributing factor. I usually try to be polite, but you sir are a jerk.
 
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Mr.GreenJeans

Well-Known Member
I had a Dinafem Power Kush strain that I grew from a single freebie seed from the 'tude. It was my favorite of that grow, so I started cloning it. I went for 7+ years growing exclusively from a succession of clones from that one seed (No mother plant). At that point I did start having a lot of issues with hermies and the weed just plain started getting weaker and weaker. I can't say the genetics "wore out" but something definitely changed after all of those years.
 

Mr.GreenJeans

Well-Known Member
every cannabis plant is a good yeilder every cannabis plant is the perfect strain all it comes down to is thc and cbd which strain carrys the most of what it comes down to how you grow
Seriously??? That is so botanically ignorant I'm not even sure what to say.
 

majins

Well-Known Member
Iv got a strain thats coming on 8 years and its been stressed a lot more then just clone of clone.
Started off bag seed back in 2006. Did out door grown and ended up hermi. Grew those hermi seeds 2007, same again 2008 same again 2009 when none hermied (haddnt changed any of my growing methods which was just put in hole in the dirt and show up and see what survived comes around harvest time.)
Had heaps of those same seeds, 2010 used the last of them and tried a small indoor grow on the side of my outdoors. Picture that is my avatar is that grow lol.

Tried my hand at cloning then, Used out doors to keep clones going while flowered the room.
Outdoor clones started flowering 2 weeks before harvest was ready. So they were 3 weeks flowering by the time I got them back in doors.
5 weeks on 24 hour light and took clones against before switching to flower.

Then switched to CFL for new batch of clones off those clones.
Few years latter switched from soil to 100% perlite, Then to LEDs, And recently to DWC.
Last grown had bad batch of clones since cloning gel was expired (expired in 2014 but still worked 2015 grows) and only got 1 clone survive out of the 8 I took.
So re-veg 2 plants that had been flowered and harvested.
Got 16 good clones out of that.

Plant has changed quite a bit from when I originally took the first clone. But my growing method has changed a lot.
Plant used to be more sativa when I started with it taking 10 weeks to become ripe with large tall buds growing to 6 foot from the pot.
Now it takes 7 weeks with lots of small and medium sized ones and doesnt grow taller then my waist but gets really bushy,

I wouldnt say its weaker, Id more say its improved. Get more total yeild and in a shorter time. But when your big nugs are only weighing 10-12g each compare to when they used to be 50-55g each its not as impressive to people.
 

rob333

Well-Known Member
Seriously??? That is so botanically ignorant I'm not even sure what to say.
well i don't no what you are growing but these days with all the additives and nutes that are on the market it will turn any strain into something good i have never had any issues with a strain may have some light yeilders but that can be fixed with lights and with all the additives like juicy big bud bud candy it will turn any strain good
 

KryptoBud

Well-Known Member
12 years mate dont tell me about strains i have grown more plants then u have had hot dinners so i no a good strain
You know what a good strain is? Didn't You just say that their all good?
just seed a male and pollen them
12 years growing and you're telling people to seed a male plant?
do your research next time
You should take your own advice. Did you read the article linked in this thread?
A professor from the university of oxford explains why clones aren't always identical to the plant it came from. Theres some good info that's based in actual science not grow forum folklore.

If your clones start to decline just flush them and cut off all the leaves, that'll fix em
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
A virus is a piece of genetic instructions, usually in a protective coat. Virus particles are tiny; a cell can manufacture and contain as many as a thousand of them before breaking open. They were first discovered when biologists observed that some disease-causing agents were able to pass through a filter too fine for bacteria. They can be small because they contain almost none of the machinery of a cell, only a smallish quantity of DNA or RNA.

Viruses are not living things. When they are outside of their host cell, they are just very complex molecular particles that have no metabolism and no way to reproduce. In our computer metaphor, they're like software with no hardware, floppy disks or diskettes without a computer. Having no independent metabolism they can remain viable indefinitely, under the right circumstances. "Some of them can even be crystallized, like minerals. In this state they can survive for years unchanged — until they are wetted and placed into contact with their particular hosts" (8).

The viruses that infect bacteria are more specifically called bacteriophages, or simply phages. The kind and amount of genetic instructions in phages vary from 3,600 RNA nucleotides to 166,000 DNA nucleotide pairs (9). To restate these dimensions in terms of our computer analogy, the computer viruses that infect handheld calculators range in size from 900 bytes to over 40 kilobytes. For comparison, the simplest handheld calculator (a bacterium) has about 200 kilobytes of stored programs.


Herpesvirus by Linda Stannard: All the Virology on the WWW
The viruses that infect eukaryotic cells vary in size also. The poliovirus has 7,600 RNA nucleotides; the vaccinia (cowpox) virus has 240,000 DNA nucleotide pairs (10). To use computer terms again, the computer viruses that infect personal computers range in size from 1.9 kilobytes to 60 kilobytes. For comparison, a very simple personal computer (a yeast cell) has genetic instructions equivalent to about 8 megabytes. An advanced personal computer (a human cell) contains about 1.5 gigabytes of stored information, counting the backup copy and the "silent" DNA.

When a virus attaches to its host cell, the host may take the whole virus into its cytoplasm where the virus's protective coat is removed. However, some bacteriophages use a different invasion method. They remain outside the cell and a chemical trigger causes them to inject their genome into the host's cytoplasm. Either way, the virus's genome enters the cytoplasm of the host cell.

Once inside, the virus causes the machinery of the host cell to enter one of two cycles, the lytic cycle or the lysogenic cycle. In the lytic cycle, which leads to cell degradation, the host begins to carry out the reproductive instructions in the invading virus's genome. Those instructions are, in summary, "make more of me." The host becomes a slave to the invader; it drops everything and begins to manufacture copies of the virus. After many copies have been made, the cell breaks open and dies, and many viruses are released. This is the normal way in which a virus causes symptoms of disease in its host.

In the lysogenic cycle the host cell does not make more viruses, but simply harbors the entire viral genome in the cell, usually by incorporating it into the cell's genome. If the virus is an RNA virus, as many are, the RNA must first undergo "reverse transcription" into DNA. While harboring the viral genes, the cell may grow and multiply normally, carrying the new instructions harmlessly along with it. A virus carried in this manner is said to be latent. Recently scientists have learned that even during latency, some of the virus's genes can be expressed
Nice cut and paste with no real evidence submitted to back any claim you make.
In fact it supports my refuting of your claim.
Why?
The virus's able to invade MJ are not latent type virus's. Like the brief say's, explaining latentcy. "While harboring the viral genes, the cell may grow and multiply normally, carrying the new instructions harmlessly along with it. A virus carried in this manner is said to be latent".

You are now back to the type of viral action described in the previous paragraph!

Once inside, the virus causes the machinery of the host cell to enter one of two cycles, the lytic cycle or the lysogenic cycle. In the lytic cycle, which leads to cell degradation, the host begins to carry out the reproductive instructions in the invading virus's genome. Those instructions are, in summary, "make more of me." The host becomes a slave to the invader; it drops everything and begins to manufacture copies of the virus. After many copies have been made, the cell breaks open and dies, and many viruses are released. This is the normal way in which a virus causes symptoms of disease in its host.

A virus will infect a plant. In some case's the virus can be carried over to seeds and infect the new offspring. It has damaged the DNA and not changed it in the way your thinking! You might get an extremely rare viable seed that does contain damaged DNA that may live and not express the virus. This would be a mutation caused by the virus, thus giving a change in the original DNA.
When that happens. The resulting plant is (as far as I've ever seen) sterile and will not reproduce. This "brick walls" any DNA "shift" from being passed into the plants future.

Remember what I said about how actual few virus's can pass to Cannabis and it's family of plants...That plays into this too! The one's that can. Are the ones that simply replicate in the plant and look for a new host. Some don't do that much damage but, will for why we grow the plant...

I answer with this to inform
I am not attempting to "fight" or argue.

 

Chorse

Well-Known Member
who wants to smoke the same thing for many years when there are so many great choices .
I slide in a new seed or clone now and again. Have yet to find a replacement. Knowing it makes growing it less problematic. (Like...I know when to start adding epson before the plant actually tells me) Mainly though it is because it is super smoke. Amazing smell and taste before and after harvest/cure. Super graduated high. Smoke a little get a nice buzz that allows you to keep doing anything you want to but with a smile. Bogart a joint and you best be sitting down. But yeah, I am sure there are better out there but I am pretty sure this would be on the top shelf of most dispensaries.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Great response Dr Who, I respect your opinion! The part of your response that I don't agree with is:

"The ONLY way to get a TRUE "genetic" shift in a non connected plant clone, is by pollination and reproduction
from a plant outside the genetic of that strain!"


I firmly believe the genome of a marijuana plant can be altered by both chemical and physical influences. I can't specifically cite the alleles that are more conserved than others, but i know there are less conserved sequences within the genome that are subject to mutations based on factors other than pollination. You may not see differences in phenotype, but I'll bet the genotype is definitely different every 5 cloning generations.

I have a strain of Sour Diesel that I've been carrying for 20+ years via lateral cloning. It's phenotype is identical to the original parent (although yields have decreased). Similarly, I've cloned a strain of Vortex for three years that has changed so much (it was treated aggressively for mites) that it doesn't even resemble the parent. Not having sequencing data on either, I can't prove the genetic differences, but when I when I see phenotype differences I suspect genotype differences, which I call genetic shift.

When funding for the research into this plant becomes more plentiful, I think the answers to these questions will be settled.
An interesting observation to be sure.

Any outside influence that affects a change in DNA is considered damage. Say for instance you do the colchicine chemical treatment to make a polyploid. Have you changed the DNA?
Answer is NO.
You have created a slip in the 2 generation cycle of plants to produce a third set of identical chromosomes for a polyploid plant.
[Plants have life cycles with 2 changing multicellular life cycles. The first generation is called gametophyte and is haploid (single chromosome). The second generation is sporophyte and is diploid (dual chromesome). The chemical affects the change and slides the chromosomes to three identical ones.This creates the polyploid (3 chromosome) plant. This plant carries all kinds of growing issues. It tends to not carry over directly in breeding. It increases grow times and decreases quality.]

Yet I still say your conclusion is incorrect (as politely as I can say it)...

Your still observing "environmental shift"...in my opinion. Your description even points to it...

Early college botany class's describe "genetic shift" as only being possible by "outline" pollination....

I understand your conclusion and say it's an easy one to reach!
I don't agree with it is all.

Very nice discussion about it though!

Lets see what Krypto has found next eh? Maybe I'll find a new outlook there.
 
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Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Why plant 'clones' aren't identical -- ScienceDaily
There's some good info in this article for those interested. It's a short read.
Jesus I hate "briefs"! So many derive so much from so little information.

The plant tested thalecress is in the Mustard family (how did I know! Some form of mustard plant is the "go to" plant for college lab testing). Our plant is from a whole different family and a rather tight one too. They have similarities and big differences. Mustard plants are used because they have a wide base of similarities to other plants and are easy to grow and don't take up a lot of space.
This has implications but, I would be more inclined to greater interest if it was done on a plant from our family - even hops! Hops has lots of good research done on it. Very directly relates to our plant!

YET, I'm going to look for the paper......I looked.....FOUND IT!

Guess what? These plant clonal changes are brought about ON PURPOSE by FN irradiation! They paper studies mutations and they force some to study!

Here is the whole paper!

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/22/7/1306.full

Now then, remember what I said in my first line? I hate briefs! (hell, it's not even the abstract).

Still Krypto, the whole paper was fascinating!

Thanks for the link to the brief!
 
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Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Iv got a strain thats coming on 8 years and its been stressed a lot more then just clone of clone.
Started off bag seed back in 2006. Did out door grown and ended up hermi. Grew those hermi seeds 2007, same again 2008 same again 2009 when none hermied (haddnt changed any of my growing methods which was just put in hole in the dirt and show up and see what survived comes around harvest time.)
Had heaps of those same seeds, 2010 used the last of them and tried a small indoor grow on the side of my outdoors. Picture that is my avatar is that grow lol.

Tried my hand at cloning then, Used out doors to keep clones going while flowered the room.
Outdoor clones started flowering 2 weeks before harvest was ready. So they were 3 weeks flowering by the time I got them back in doors.
5 weeks on 24 hour light and took clones against before switching to flower.

Then switched to CFL for new batch of clones off those clones.
Few years latter switched from soil to 100% perlite, Then to LEDs, And recently to DWC.
Last grown had bad batch of clones since cloning gel was expired (expired in 2014 but still worked 2015 grows) and only got 1 clone survive out of the 8 I took.
So re-veg 2 plants that had been flowered and harvested.
Got 16 good clones out of that.

Plant has changed quite a bit from when I originally took the first clone. But my growing method has changed a lot.
Plant used to be more sativa when I started with it taking 10 weeks to become ripe with large tall buds growing to 6 foot from the pot.
Now it takes 7 weeks with lots of small and medium sized ones and doesnt grow taller then my waist but gets really bushy,

I wouldnt say its weaker, Id more say its improved. Get more total yeild and in a shorter time. But when your big nugs are only weighing 10-12g each compare to when they used to be 50-55g each its not as impressive to people.
CLASSIC environmental shifting!
 
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