Calmag + coco, a myth?

[outlier]

Interested to hear everyone's opinion on this statement from Canna (http://www.canna-uk.com/problem_solving_coco). Thanks again @Cl@rksville for posting this site on another thread. Some great info on there especially for deficiencies. Just type the nutrient name in the search box (top right). Clarko recommended it to a soil grower. So bookmark it

So here's what they say about Problem Solving in Coco...

If the water used to mix the nutrients is very soft, the concentration of nutrients will need to be higher or the coco will rob the nutrients and calcium deficiency will begin to occur. This is precisely because of these issues. With the popularity of reverse osmosis systems sky-rocketing, this issue is seen more and more often. Growers plan to use pure water, feed lightly to avoid burn and feed often to keep things pumping. This can be avoided, however, by adding back some of the original water to buffer the water once more. There is no other effective cure and throwing a calcium or magnesium product at the problem will just make it worse over time. Adding a higher concentration of nutrients is a better and safer option.

I have only just started doing this myself (first grow in coco). If I give the full dose of calmag (which I thought I had to because of c and mg deficiencies), it takes up a boatload of ppm's I can give the plants. If I remove it completely, I would be able to use an aggressive formula of my nutes. I can't add back unfiltered water like they suggest, because I have none.

My nutes already have everything that calmag has. My coco is House & Garden and I was told by the local hydro store guy I bought it from that it is good quality, buffered, washed, ready to go. My water is rain water stored in a tank and the base ppm is anywhere between 18 and 28. If we get heavy/lots of rain, it must stir up the tank because I always see the ppm rise a bit when it does. Either way it's pretty soft to start with so I have lots of ec to play with. If I full dose on calmag, it takes well over 1/2 the ppm's I can give. Considering that my calmag only has a few nutrients, and my nutes have everything, it makes sense to use that instead. Right??? Cost I see as no issue because the calmag is about the same price (per volume) as my nutes. The calmag route may well cost more because I can add less nutes to achieve the same ppm result.

Thanks to the internecks, newbie growers trying to do the right thing and reading all you can can actually be detrimental to the learning process. Putting all the crap you have to wade through aside, there's so much conflicting info out there. In the end, you just have to find out the hard way and experience it first-hand. Canna seem to be in the game of coco. Yeah they sell coco products, but you don't just go throwing shit like that out there. They must be one of the better sources for accurate info on coco. Their whole business model depends on it. If you buy their coco, they want to teach you how to properly grow in it so that you come back and do it again.

The problem I see is that everyone is banging out the use calmag mantra, when a more educated (you would hope) source says what I believe to be more common sense. Give the plants all nutrients and let it sort out what it does and does not need. Coco robs nutes, yeah they said that, so just give it more nutes! Trying to pinpoint what the plants are and are not using seems pointless to me. Unless you have some serious lab shit going on to find out what molecules are being used and which ones aren't. Don't we just have to sorta wing it and give everything it may need and let nature take its course??

Let me state that I have no opinion either way {yet}. So any attacks should be directed at CANNA and not me. I read that from Canna, it made sense. I'm now putting it to the test. I could have done this the whole time. I found when using calmag, I could only ever get 1/2 the recommended dose of nutes to start with which to be honest has always concerned me. The calcium and magnesium deficiencies do seem to be borderline an issue/not an issue for me so the bit about making it worse over time sort of resonates with me a bit. It may have appeared to subsided but for all I know, it could well be making it worse like they say.

I still see the problems if you fine tooth comb and I'm stumped because I am already full dosing with calmag. The only logical answer is that I can only ever 1/2 dose on the nutes when I use calmag so I never really sorted the problem to begin with. All roads seem to be pointing towards the fact I indeed only band-aided the problem. If that's the case then a lot of other people are doing the same

 

[Cl@rksville]

Interested to hear everyone's opinion on this statement from Canna (http://www.canna-uk.com/problem_solving_coco). Thanks again @Cl@rksville for posting this site on another thread. Some great info on there especially for deficiencies. Just type the nutrient name in the search box (top right). Clarko recommended it to a soil grower. So bookmark it

It is a good site for learning but theres a couple of things in the thread which confuse me...

Are you asking are the guys at canna full of it or is their coco full of calmag lol? My answer is yes to both most likely... The guys who write the documents are very good and I have spoken to them many times over the years, a more honest, humble, professional set of chaps I have never met. It also goes without saying they are a business who make profit and the 'salesmen' are just that, basically full of shitneybopdoodaaah. I think as a company they are at the top of the ladder, I mean with so many popular or FAD 'nutrients' floating about a good cal-mag supplement could be a 'very profitable' addition to their line up, so why don't they sell cal mag? Its because the coco a/b already has it in at the correct amount imo. The soil and aqua both have it in but as the medium doesn't act like a giant magnet holding the 2 elements back, its less problematic and assuming plants are fed properly it doesn't become an issue for many growers.

Anyway my basic experience with their Coco Professional and feeding their Canna Coco A/B at their recommendation negates the need for any cal mag, I do add around 150ppm of DIY calcium/magnesium nitrate 3:1 during flower with humic acid as I find it helps them bulk it all up a bit.

Regards PPM and feeding I don't use H&G products but if its a coco dedicated solution it should contain calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate at high levels. Then again saying that if you used Botanicare CM+ at 150ppm it gives you adequate space for adding additional base nutrients in coco, I mean at peak flower you could be at 1100 -1200! My PK weapon of choice has a low PPM anyway and works fine with the canna base nutes.

In answer to your question I think a dedicated coco nutrient will already have sufficient in to make up for the effect of coco holding onto certain nutrients.

 

[outlier]

It is a good site for learning but theres a couple of things in the thread which confuse me...

Are you asking are the guys at canna full of it or is their coco full of calmag lol? My answer is yes to both most likely... The guys who write the documents are very good and I have spoken to them many times over the years, a more honest, humble, professional set of chaps I have never met. It also goes without saying they are a business who make profit and the 'salesmen' are just that, basically full of shitneybopdoodaaah. I think as a company they are at the top of the ladder, I mean with so many popular or FAD 'nutrients' floating about a good cal-mag supplement could be a 'very profitable' addition to their line up, so why don't they sell cal mag? Its because the coco a/b already has it in at the correct amount imo. The soil and aqua both have it in but as the medium doesn't act like a giant magnet holding the 2 elements back, its less problematic and assuming plants are fed properly it doesn't become an issue for many growers.

Anyway my basic experience with their Coco Professional and feeding their Canna Coco A/B at their recommendation negates the need for any cal mag, I do add around 150ppm of DIY calcium/magnesium nitrate 3:1 during flower with humic acid as I find it helps them bulk it all up a bit.

Regards PPM and feeding I don't use H&G products but if its a coco dedicated solution it should contain calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate at high levels. Then again saying that if you used Botanicare CM+ at 150ppm it gives you adequate space for adding additional base nutrients in coco, I mean at peak flower you could be at 1100 -1200! My PK weapon of choice has a low PPM anyway and works fine with the canna base nutes.

In answer to your question I think a dedicated coco nutrient will already have sufficient in to make up for the effect of coco holding onto certain nutrients.

Thanks Clarksville! Ah yeah sorry, my aussie slang gets a few of you around here lol

By full of it, I meant full of BS. And yeah I sort of gathered they are not idiots. Once again you have outdone yourself. Thanks again mate.

 

[TenEmies]

Interested to hear everyone's opinion on this statement from Canna (http://www.canna-uk.com/problem_solving_coco). Thanks again @Cl@rksville for posting this site on another thread. Some great info on there especially for deficiencies. Just type the nutrient name in the search box (top right). Clarko recommended it to a soil grower. So bookmark it

So here's what they say about Problem Solving in Coco...


I have only just started doing this myself (first grow in coco). If I give the full dose of calmag (which I thought I had to because of c and mg deficiencies), it takes up a boatload of ppm's I can give the plants. If I remove it completely, I would be able to use an aggressive formula of my nutes. I can't add back unfiltered water like they suggest, because I have none.

My nutes already have everything that calmag has. My coco is House & Garden and I was told by the local hydro store guy I bought it from that it is good quality, buffered, washed, ready to go. My water is rain water stored in a tank and the base ppm is anywhere between 18 and 28. If we get heavy/lots of rain, it must stir up the tank because I always see the ppm rise a bit when it does. Either way it's pretty soft to start with so I have lots of ec to play with. If I full dose on calmag, it takes well over 1/2 the ppm's I can give. Considering that my calmag only has a few nutrients, and my nutes have everything, it makes sense to use that instead. Right??? Cost I see as no issue because the calmag is about the same price (per volume) as my nutes. The calmag route may well cost more because I can add less nutes to achieve the same ppm result.

Thanks to the internecks, newbie growers trying to do the right thing and reading all you can can actually be detrimental to the learning process. Putting all the crap you have to wade through aside, there's so much conflicting info out there. In the end, you just have to find out the hard way and experience it first-hand. Canna seem to be in the game of coco. Yeah they sell coco products, but you don't just go throwing shit like that out there. They must be one of the better sources for accurate info on coco. Their whole business model depends on it. If you buy their coco, they want to teach you how to properly grow in it so that you come back and do it again.

The problem I see is that everyone is banging out the use calmag mantra, when a more educated (you would hope) source says what I believe to be more common sense. Give the plants all nutrients and let it sort out what it does and does not need. Coco robs nutes, yeah they said that, so just give it more nutes! Trying to pinpoint what the plants are and are not using seems pointless to me. Unless you have some serious lab shit going on to find out what molecules are being used and which ones aren't. Don't we just have to sorta wing it and give everything it may need and let nature take its course??

Let me state that I have no opinion either way {yet}. So any attacks should be directed at CANNA and not me. I read that from Canna, it made sense. I'm now putting it to the test. I could have done this the whole time. I found when using calmag, I could only ever get 1/2 the recommended dose of nutes to start with which to be honest has always concerned me. The calcium and magnesium deficiencies do seem to be borderline an issue/not an issue for me so the bit about making it worse over time sort of resonates with me a bit. It may have appeared to subsided but for all I know, it could well be making it worse like they say.

I still see the problems if you fine tooth comb and I'm stumped because I am already full dosing with calmag. The only logical answer is that I can only ever 1/2 dose on the nutes when I use calmag so I never really sorted the problem to begin with. All roads seem to be pointing towards the fact I indeed only band-aided the problem. If that's the case then a lot of other people are doing the same

Canna and HnG are same Using 100 coco needs be triple washed. HG was Canna split up

 

[TenEmies]

Feed normally

 

[Cl@rksville]

Canna and HnG are same Using 100 coco needs be triple washed. HG was Canna split up

Just clarify that for me please. What is 100 coco and are we saying a new product, pre-bagged needs washing 3 times? Also Canna isn't in anyway affiliated to H&G according to the old magazines they used to send out...

I recall some sort of claim by H&G that they were ex-canna employees, if thats the case well good but I'm an ex employee of YARA Nutrients Fertilisers and Additives but I couldn't manufacture their Phosamco#6 for example, but maybe thats cos I'm baked 90% of the day lol

 

[Cl@rksville]

I found it but its not the place for discussing nutrient firms politics is it... http://www.cannagardening.com/sites/default/files/newsletter/html/en/newsletter-11-07-13.html

 

[TenEmies]

If using 100% coco med. it needs be 3washed which both companies do for u pre bagged and ya short HG was an old owner part... Ment of Canna

 

[TenEmies]

Split up. Double or single washed coco for soil mixing...all coco say how many times washed. Should

 

[TenEmies]

Washed means the salt washed out which u want

 

[TenEmies]

If using RO statement doesn't matter

 

[outlier]

Thanks everyone! Yeah I went pre-prepared coco so I didn't have to do that myself. Last thing I wanted was to be trying to first-time grow in coco that I had not prepared properly to start with

I was also going to use the H&G nutes but the shop was out of stock and the guy recommended floraduo 2 part instead (he recommended either the flora 2 or 3 part and I chose the 2 part because it sounded like it would suit me as a newb). He said I won't need calmag but he didn't say to bump up the rates if you get deficiencies. Shortly after I got mg deficiencies. Read until my eyes bled, went back to the store, bought calmag. Unfortunately the guy I first spoke to was not there that day and the other guy wasn't as knowledgeable. He just tried to sell me a heap of other stuff I didn't need.

So yeah, using about the minimum recommended dose of calmag got me up to 190-200ppm. This was within the 150-200ppm ranges I had read a lot of people were recommending for RO water. The deficiency got worse though so I upped the calmag to the full recommended dose and that took me to the mid-high 300's. 600ppm or 1.2 ec is my burn level so I always feed at 1.1 or 550ppm. So yeah that left jack ppm's for nutes and by that stage I should have been in full growth feeds but could only ever get 1/2 that.

I have just spoken to the guy at the hydro shop on the phone and he set me straight. Ditch calmag and up the nutes instead like Canna suggest. Apologised for not letting me know before, yadda, yadda. It's all good.

Anyho, it's been a couple of days now since I ditched calmag and I think it's made a world of difference. I have a little short nugget that just wants to grow like my hair. More density rather then length. It has grown more in 2 days than it has ever grown before. I've had to tie the other back because that little nugget was just so damn slow to gain height. The internodes are tighter than a nuns nasty. For the first time ever I see this morning at lights on that it's towering over the other.

I think I've had borderline iron deficiencies as well. It was only when I plugged in the hps lamp that I noticed all new growth was a tad yellow. In normal light it looked fine but I was suspect that it did not look right. It was always worse at lights on and progressively got better through the day. This also appears to be much, much better

Geez I can dribble some keyboard shit. Haha sorry!

Thanks again Clarkson. You are the shit mate. In Aussie slang that means you are a fucking legend. I can't wait for the next grow. I've known all along that something was not quite right. I think you've helped me nail it. Just in time for the 600w upgrade. I owe you a beer or 3 mate!

 

[dopeleader]

Out im also aussie, the canna bag of coco you got is fine to use straight out the bag.
fuck off those nutrients that the cunt has got you on, and jump on board RAPID brand nutrients.
My local hydro shop has Rapid A+B coco (also Budlink for a 3 part Mix), Rapid Fulvijooce, Rapid Mamajooce that will have your coco grow with no issues whatsoever.
this cal/mag bullshit I keep reading that people have bought is clearly some BS, cal/mag is an issue if you only use entry-level nutrients like your basic A+B with no part C or with no AIDING nutrient solutions.

 

[Turbo head]

Gt coco is awesome I'm getting mad results no cal mag and no ph adjusting

 

[Cl@rksville]

Thanks everyone! Yeah I went pre-prepared coco so I didn't have to do that myself. Last thing I wanted was to be trying to first-time grow in coco that I had not prepared properly to start with

I was also going to use the H&G nutes but the shop was out of stock and the guy recommended floraduo 2 part instead (he recommended either the flora 2 or 3 part and I chose the 2 part because it sounded like it would suit me as a newb). He said I won't need calmag but he didn't say to bump up the rates if you get deficiencies. Shortly after I got mg deficiencies. Read until my eyes bled, went back to the store, bought calmag. Unfortunately the guy I first spoke to was not there that day and the other guy wasn't as knowledgeable. He just tried to sell me a heap of other stuff I didn't need.

So yeah, using about the minimum recommended dose of calmag got me up to 190-200ppm. This was within the 150-200ppm ranges I had read a lot of people were recommending for RO water. The deficiency got worse though so I upped the calmag to the full recommended dose and that took me to the mid-high 300's. 600ppm or 1.2 ec is my burn level so I always feed at 1.1 or 550ppm. So yeah that left jack ppm's for nutes and by that stage I should have been in full growth feeds but could only ever get 1/2 that.

I have just spoken to the guy at the hydro shop on the phone and he set me straight. Ditch calmag and up the nutes instead like Canna suggest. Apologised for not letting me know before, yadda, yadda. It's all good.

Anyho, it's been a couple of days now since I ditched calmag and I think it's made a world of difference. I have a little short nugget that just wants to grow like my hair. More density rather then length. It has grown more in 2 days than it has ever grown before. I've had to tie the other back because that little nugget was just so damn slow to gain height. The internodes are tighter than a nuns nasty. For the first time ever I see this morning at lights on that it's towering over the other.

I think I've had borderline iron deficiencies as well. It was only when I plugged in the hps lamp that I noticed all new growth was a tad yellow. In normal light it looked fine but I was suspect that it did not look right. It was always worse at lights on and progressively got better through the day. This also appears to be much, much better

Geez I can dribble some keyboard shit. Haha sorry!

Thanks again Clarkson. You are the shit mate. In Aussie slang that means you are a fucking legend. I can't wait for the next grow. I've known all along that something was not quite right. I think you've helped me nail it. Just in time for the 600w upgrade. I owe you a beer or 3 mate!

Its alreet mate I think that canna are just streets ahead with the coco and having used it since the year dot with drippers and the A/B I can assure you that their product is exceptionally well made, consistent and its components are top quality full stop.
I don't do mumbo juice lol but if I did it I like the sound of that nuns nasty

Iron defs are very rare in this day and age and are often indicative of cheaper base ingredients... nutrient firms can pay £12/25kg for their 'Chinese' iron source or £150/25kg for a more suitable source from a proper company. The difference is huge when it comes to somebody trying to replicate a competitors nutrients. For instance 20g per gallon of the cheap shite is useless for MJ in coco but 10g/gallon of the proper tackle is more than adequate, the cheap irons are removed by magnets in pumps too.

Can you add iron to hydro systems or coco easily? I'd say yes but never needed to personally, I'd look in the form of Iron Fe 7% DTPA often used for hydroponic strawberry growers and make a solution from distilled water around 3g per litre and then add 1-2ml of this stock to your feed. I'd imagine its on eBay? If not buy the standard 6% EDTA as used in Botanicare Calmag + but increase to 4g per litre of stock solution, be careful it dyes everything bright red

 

[TheFuture]

Although youre looking for an answer, the immediate solution is to avoid the coco altogether and foliar spray your plants with no more than 50ppm of humic acid plus CaMgFe. They should take it up immediately with no burn if you dont go too high for your plants maturity level, and you dont have to add it to the medium at all. Besides, plants only really need the Calcium nearing bloom time when the plant is getting massive. You can add a little bit of Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom Salt) to the medium to solve Mg deficiencies.

 

[boilingoil]

Well after several tears of running coco I've found my sweet spot in coir running RO to be 30 ppm of silica and 70 ppm of cal-mag+ and between 500-600 ppm,

 

[Cl@rksville]

Although youre looking for an answer, the immediate solution is to avoid the coco altogether and foliar spray your plants with no more than 50ppm of humic acid plus CaMgFe. They should take it up immediately with no burn if you dont go too high for your plants maturity level, and you dont have to add it to the medium at all. Besides, plants only really need the Calcium nearing bloom time when the plant is getting massive. You can add a little bit of Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom Salt) to the medium to solve Mg deficiencies.

Would this foliar feeding apply in flower also? Please don't think I'm trying to argue as I am just interested in your views on Calcium requirements of a plant, thats a fairly bold statement for someone reading this who is a newcomer to growing. I always thought it was 'very much' needed to help convert N to proteins and build strength in plants cell walls ie strengthen its structure?

 

[TheFuture]

Calcium is definitely needed for plant cellular structural growth and will absolutely need more during the flower cycle because of more plant mass. However, when I spray my plants, I use 350ppm of nutrients as soon as they have 5th node and I top them. Of that, in one gallon of water with a base of 7.2pH and 120ppm dissolved solids, only 10ml of that is CalMag. While I do spray in flower, I only do so up until the trichomes appear profusely to avoid any altered taste. (I dont like to taste BioWeed for instance.)

When you NEED to fertilize Ca it will be when your plants start showing an almost reverse burn. In this case, the Calcium is immobile and unable to move to the end of the leaf tip resulting in marginal burns. In my example, my water really provides enough Ca simply from hard water.

Also as a side note, I have a lot of views that differ from other growers. However, I have produced more than $175m as a Commercial Farm Foreman/Grower and my views come from my own experiences at this point. While I do confer with other growers, This season alone I produced more than 110,000 individual plants in a 61 acre facility. Therefore I don't really discuss much with others, heh. Standing on the shoulders of Giants, though. Thank you Mr. Rosenthal et al.

 

[TheFuture]

Looking further into the subject now that i am home, Calcium and Magnesium both bind naturally to the coco fiber. Though it might be common sense that if these are at the roots they would be available, but if it is bound to the coco it would indeed be unavailable to the plant. If using RO water it would scavenge. My apologies.