Harrekin
Well-Known Member
An organisation to protect the rights of workers is one thing.
The MASSIVE political organisations known as Unions in the US nowadays are a complete bastardisation of that concept.
Hypocrisy Thy Name Is Union - Unions Demand Exemption From LA's $15 Minimum Wage
- Thread starter Uncle Ben
- Start date
The MASSIVE political organisations known as Unions in the US nowadays are a complete bastardisation of that concept.
Red1966
Well-Known Member
You all by yourself couldn't install an exterior door on your home for $100 ,now tell me who's fault that cost change is & who bears the cost of the correct doors , either the building owner because his architect supplied wrong specs or the door company's estimator & his company eats the cost , in neither case is it the fault of workmen .This is why you shouldn't use Google to argue with cause I'm gonna discredit every thing you posted for the nonsense it is .
Again your reading then regurgitating political nonsense mixed in with fact to fit your agenda & its reinforcing my position
Who's fault are the design changes structural changes & equipment change orders ! If your stumped reread my previous post to you .
Hint comprehensive reading of my post you quoted will answer all your confused examples trying to lay the blame at hourly workers feet .
As I already painstakingly pointed out any changes in plans, design or structure are the fault of the architect, the changes in equipment are caused by hospital administration , both cases have zero to do with any hourly worker on site or his company , these stupid examples your giving are only proving my point .
Oh & the equipment wouldn't fit thru the doors because the architect altered the room designs ,as you pointed out ,which most likely attributed to equipment not fitting , next you have hospital admins changing equipment where they didn't consult the architect , or the architect was negligent with his alterations to original plans causing equipment not to fit .
So far every example you have gave is proving my assertation that all additional costs are caused by the architect changing the structure ( as I already told you ) or by the bldg owner requesting extras , in this case different equipment that don't fit ( I told you this already also ) .
Your not doing so well supporting your position that hourly workers are the cause of cost over runs & Google is making it worse on ya
Oh and on your rebar example, how the hell do you equate that to any hourly worker , the contractor is responsible for ordering the correct material for the hourly workers to install , not hourly workers , another nonsense example fully discredited.
One more thing about your bldgs rebar & the contractor being paid in full , if the contractor couldn't aquire the specified material architects always have approved secondary materials in their specifications , the rebar had to be an approved alternate material or the contractor would a never received his final job draw which is normally 20% , if the contractor got paid in full & saved $500,000 by using an alternate approved rebar then good for him ,his estimator should get a fat bonus .
The more shit you Google spew the more obvious it becomes how clueless you are about construction ,architects & specifications , every last material on the job has an approved alternate , sometimes several alternate materials, that includes things as important as rebar all the way down to the caulking used on the exterior of the building which is always Vulkem that costs $12 a tube , its approved alternate is Sika Flex 1A that costs $ 4 a tube , a savy estimator will use the $4 caulking & not violate his terms of contract , same as your rebar example .
So far all you have done is to reinforce my 1st hand experience assertion that cost over runs always come from the architect changing the design , or the bldg owner asking for something new .
You will not win this one with Google red , I already know all the answers without Google
I have worked many union jobs and many non-union jobs. I was a due paying member for many years.
The simple fact is, during that time, unions in my area were nothing but money grabs.
I confronted the union reps numerous times asking them questions about where money was going and they got to the point where they refused to even speak to me. I caused a lot of people to drop out of the union because of the questions and the response given by the union reps. Unions in my area are nothing but rip-offs. Rep drives around in his airconditioned, brand new shiny Cadillac while the workers are in 100+ degree temps working their butts off to give that guy money so he can ride around in his shiny Cadillac. Just check into the INSURANCE practice of Unions. They take, take, take, take, take, but the first bad month of winter you get your insurance stripped because you didnt meet your minimum hours for one month. EVEN THOUGH YOU WORK OVER THE MINIMUM FOR THE PREVIOUS NINE MONTHS. But of course it doesnt carry over. What happens to all that extra money? 4 bucks an hour for hundreds of hours just disappears.
The simple fact is, during that time, unions in my area were nothing but money grabs.
I confronted the union reps numerous times asking them questions about where money was going and they got to the point where they refused to even speak to me. I caused a lot of people to drop out of the union because of the questions and the response given by the union reps. Unions in my area are nothing but rip-offs. Rep drives around in his airconditioned, brand new shiny Cadillac while the workers are in 100+ degree temps working their butts off to give that guy money so he can ride around in his shiny Cadillac. Just check into the INSURANCE practice of Unions. They take, take, take, take, take, but the first bad month of winter you get your insurance stripped because you didnt meet your minimum hours for one month. EVEN THOUGH YOU WORK OVER THE MINIMUM FOR THE PREVIOUS NINE MONTHS. But of course it doesnt carry over. What happens to all that extra money? 4 bucks an hour for hundreds of hours just disappears.
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
Red1966
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I've noticed that about you. If it didn't happen to you, it didn't happen.
panhead
Well-Known Member
A couple points i'd like to address , if your union rep is driving a shiny caddy owned by the union please give me the local # , state & trade , a simple phone call will verify if your construction union buys caddys for their business agent , ive been a member of 3 trade unions , all 3 are nation wide & not a single union supplys union owned caddys for their business managers/agents , thats the proper terms for union big shot btw , 32 yrs of union work in well over 20 states & never have i met a union BA that drives a union owned caddy, more like a 15 yr old pos buick .
Another point all this mega money machine crap your trying to sell isnt truth , construction unions make up less than7% of the total workforce , most locals deduct between 1.5% & 2% of workers earnings in the form of dues , out of that they pay the business agent , pay for the union hall & its upkeep , secretarys wages, anything left over is used to back pro union politicians , with the shitty hours you say you worked in your union the total yearly dues deduction from your check couldnt of amounted to over $1,000 a yr , if it was more you woulda had yr round insurance .
Your demands & inquiries about your dues were 100% politically orientated i suspect & you did not like the union using your $20 a week to support democratic politicians , you can tell us if your a republican , are you ? thats usually the case when people claim their whopping 2% union dues are fleecing them , at $20 a week per man union dues arent even 1 millionth of what pac's contribute , in 2010 the anti union ABC lobby represinting non union contractors donated over $50 million dollars to anti union republicans , total nationwide union dues dont even come close to 50 mil .
Most ABC non union contractors contribute much more to anti union pac's than 2% of workers wages , only they pay their workers 40% less , your bitching about 2% union dues when union tradesmen average 40% more than non union , based on pure economics thats a 38% increase in workers pay , but your pissed over $20 a week, only somebodys political beliefs can make a negative outta 38% jump in pay after union dues are taken out .
Your 2% union dues gripe holds zero water compared to the extra 40% in wages unionized workers earn .
Next is union insurance , in 32 yrs i was never a single day without insurance , again tell me what local you belonged to & i can tell you the exact # of days a week worked are needed to cary full time insurance .
The average hours needed to keep full time year round union insurance is 25 hours a week , thats pretty damm easy to work those hrs & keep insurance , again in 32 yrs i was never without & when i retired i had 6 months of insurance banked before i had to start paying the retiree deductable .
Every trade union ive ever dealt with in all my yrs , including my union takes any hours past the 25 hour count & puts them in an insurance hour bank where the off work months in the winter the worker is fully insured , it works out to be about 1,300 hrs a yr to keep full time insurance , if you ran out of insurance its because you had alot of short work weeks & time between projects . NOT your union stealing your hours past the required 25 hour a week count which most all trade unions use nation wide .
I would love to verify your claim of your union local ripping off your insurance hours by not carrying them over within the same fiscal year .
I'd also love to speak to the union business agent that drives around in a union owned caddy while your busting ass in 100 degree weather .
Post up some union local info for me & i will personally call them durring business hours & question your claims , they must speak with me & answer any questions i pose due to me being on a local Executive Board , either your union is ripping you off or your claims are 100% false ,post your union local # & i will make inquiries tomorrow & report back with truthfull answers & the name of who i spoke to .
Your claims of insurance fraud are highly suspect because union insurance & pension are federally regulated .
I smell anti democratic politics afoot .
panhead
Well-Known Member
Dont be pissed because i know wtf im talking about & the union issues i quote as fact are from 32 yrs hands on experience , i worked for one of the largest global construction companys as a superintendent, any tradesman here union or non union knows the site super settles all union beefs , we also settle all non union workers beefs & organize all contractors , i was damm good at my job too .
I didnt work exclusively with union subs on my projects ( allthough i'd prefer to) i worked with many a non union contractor as well , some were very good & qualified workers & others were a problem every day & very dangerous .
I know what kinda rats scabs can be , i watched my friend die after he fell thru a 6 x 8 curb covered only by 24 gauge sheet metal vs the 2 pcs of 1 inch plywood required , their excuse was it was cheaper , they paid 3.8 million for that death & a million in osha fines & never missed a days work or even sent flowers to the funeral, they coulda spent $5k doing shit safe & proper but scabs like cheap over safe , did you not even read my post about the roofer in Texas who fell to his death from no perimiter warning flags or saftey harnesses , then the foreman threatened to fire anybody who talked ?
I spent 9 months in a burn unit because the only scab contractor on site didnt take the time to put his welding & cutting gasses in the proper location , seconds after discovering his hidden stockpile of acetylene & oxygen a welders spark hit a leaky tank & the explosion nearly killed me , burned the fuk outta me, broke my back & caused 2 partial amputated fingers, his excuse was nobody told me ! I took $580,000 off that mother fuker in cash & another million in a medical trust for all my surgeries , i bank rupted his business , i shoulda asked for 2 million instead .
I dont google shit cause i dont need too , it would be like me googling shit on your career & trying to discount your on the job claims , i wouldnt stand a chance , this is the one subject i know assloads about .
panhead
Well-Known Member
Ever notice the number 1 gripe from all the ex union expert workers is ALLWAYS union dues , they hate their money supporting democrats , if their cash went for rush limburgers fat ass they'd be happy campers .
I hope i live long enough to see all these anti union guys working at wallmart construction at $8 an hour cause its a commin .
panhead
Well-Known Member
Well then you should be happy to know the anti union ABC lobby spends roughly 10 times the amount of unions supporting low wages & their lobby spends hundreds of millions backing anti labor politicians .
The ABC lobby is the MASSIVE political machine you speak of , unions are the little guy on the block .
Question , why is your job worth what you collect for a salary , what circumstances made your contribution to your company worth the pay you recieve .
Thats a serious question & a non political question .
I never once said or even in my mind implied it was a union owned caddy. It is the fact he is making enough money off our backs to be able to afford one.
And you can believe whatever you want, it was a fact of life with the brick mason union in the Memphis area. Feel free to do all the research you want. 10+ years ago, the Memphis Bricklayers union had a monthly minimum for insurance, not yearly, monthly and any month you didnt meet the minimum hours your insurance would drop. It was so bad and so many people went apeshit over it, they made a change that you could take the insurance or you could get an extra 4 dollars an hour on your check. Almost everyone went with the 4 dollars an hour and bought outside insurance.
panhead
Well-Known Member
I wish just once one of you guys would post accurate information regarding unions & union dues , your post shoulda ended with IMO because your claim of untaxed union dues is 100% FALSE & completely inaccurate at best .
Union members pay taxes on the money they earn , this includes taxes on the union dues collected by the union from workers paychecks , the national construction workers average union dues is 2% & taxes are paid on every last dollar.
Why would you say workers union dues are untaxed when the simplest google search would reveal taxes are paid on all union dues , via the union worker ?
The false statements in this thread are overwhelming , so far ive discounted every last anti union claim of increased costs , cost plus projects , union dues ect & if supplied requested info i'll discount claims of stolen insurance premiums & union reps driving union bought caddys .
panhead
Well-Known Member
Yes your statement did imply your union rep was driving a union bought caddy , fyi all union business agents are paid 40 hrs a week at union journeyman scale , if that 40 hr paycheck is enough to afford a caddy thats his concern , being paid 40 hrs a week at the same hourly rate as you if your a journeyman shouldnt anger anybody , its an elected office that is not permenant & anybody can run for office .
If you guys had an underfunded insurance plan thats the members fault not the union .
As a union member you should know that with every new contract comes cost of living increases , lets say for arguements sake $1 an hour each yr , the union calls a meeting where all members VOTE on how to disperse the cost of living increase , we put half twords insurance costs or better , then split the rest between the check & vacation pay .
If your insurance was only being paid $4 every hour worked what did you expect , i paid $9.37 an hour for insurance & got top flight insurance .
Sounds to me that your union membership didnt disperse contract raises appropriately, every dollar you put twords insurance lowers hours needed to keep insurance going with less hours , its the fault of your union members being greedy & wanting as much as possible on the check & underfunding the insurance , 4 yrs in a row i got a 10 cent raise on my check , 70 cents to insurance & the last 20 cents to vacation , members greed wanting it all on the check caused $4 an hour to go to insurance & leave your plan underfunded, not the union .
Edit , a quick check of my books reveals that the entire staff of local #5 Memphis draws combigned salaries costing the union $86,673 a year total for its 3 employees , your BA driving a caddy is lucky to be making $40k a year , if thats big money i feel bad for memphis brickys , hardly the overpaid example you made him out to be , his wife most likely works full time or he lives in a shithole , around here you couldnt buy a garage for $40k .
Another example of union wrong doing or greed shot down , if i picked the wrong local in Memphis supply the correct local # & i'll tell ya the total staff salaries as fast as i can flip the pages .
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ginwilly
Well-Known Member
Yes, you pay the taxes, the union itself doesn't.
Your claim would be the same as churches saying they pay taxes because members paid taxes on their income before they donated. (although the church members do get to call it a charitable contribution, union members don't).
I'm all for private industry unions, I grew up in Detroit and was raised and clothed and fed by two union workers, but I also saw union people destroy cars and break windows out of homes when Gaurdian Glass went on strike. I've seen Great Lakes Steel go bankrupt because of obesity (caused also by management), same as Hostess.
I've seen unions do great things for people and I've seen them ruin lives and extort people. You want to paint me as anti-union just because I'm willing to see what you refuse to see. Let's not even start on the Teamsters.
So before you judge me and tell me I need to get my shit straight, it's you who are apparently so blind by your protection of them that you are the one conflating facts here.
Unions enjoy the same tax free status as churches, as you say a simple google search will tell you that.
This sucks man, I'm on the side of the people's right to collectively bargain, but because I talk about their tax exempt status, you auto assume I'm anti-union.... Do you think that helps your cause or gives ammunition to the other side?
I also have no doubt there are union reps driving nice Caddies, big whoop, there is no doubt there are also assembly line WORKERS driving nice Caddies. Last I checked this isn't a crime, not sure why you take that so personal and call bullshit.
I like you pan, and love panheads. I'm thinking about making a trip up there this summer to see family and I'll rent a Harley and come see you and we'll get high and you'll realize when it comes to Private unions we are on the same side(Public unions can gtfo).
(Not driving or pulling mine, I will fly there).
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
tries to follow up his anti-union rhetoric with a stern proclamation that he's not anti-union.
classic two face ginwilly.
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
ginwilly is not anti-union though.
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
I love unions. I know I wouldn't be making what I make if unions weren't around.
I hate union jobs. They work the shit out of you in repetitive jobs you feel like they don't pay enough.
The thing the I most hate though is anti union people that don't have a fucking clue and just parrot talking points they heard.
Don't like unions contributing to Democrats?
Maybe republicans should look after the interests of the working man
I hate union jobs. They work the shit out of you in repetitive jobs you feel like they don't pay enough.
The thing the I most hate though is anti union people that don't have a fucking clue and just parrot talking points they heard.
Don't like unions contributing to Democrats?
Maybe republicans should look after the interests of the working man
No my statement did not, and you cant use information from today to apply to 10+ years ago. Everything changed 10 years ago, now the Memphis area is filled with immigrant bricklayers, salaries dropped drastically 10 years ago, it is why I changed professions.
As an apprentice (union) I made 23.75 an hour. When I finished my apprenticeship, my salary was 20 an hour, 2 years later my salary was 18 an hour, when it dropped to 16 an hour, I changed jobs.
Then throw in most people dropped out of the Union because everyone knew it was a scam at the time. That would affect all those numbers you have. If only 1 out 10 people are in the union NOW then of course they arent making much money. 10+ years ago we were building CASINOS one after another, people were coming from all over the world to get in on the work in Memphis. And I mean literally ALL OVER THE WORLD.
Now if you drive by a job site, it is basically all immigrants.
So yeah your information is fucked.
see4
Well-Known Member
