Do you believe Americans who work full time should earn a living wage?

[aTTicRaT]

This.



McDonald's managers get paid "handsomely". lol. I literally spit up my $7 Starbucks green tea reading this.

I guess it depends on the franchise owner, but many McDonald's managers make no more than $50,000 a year.

Ok you get my point I heard around 60k anyway. But either way that is a good salary many would kill for that money. Some Walmart general managers get paid upwards of 80k. Dealing with that shit though is probably worth 200k. If you can't live off 50k (or equivalent by region) you need to take a good look at your life.

 

[Harrekin]

You are dong great. I think you'd do great in just about any system that enables people to benefit from hard work and want to achieve success. You worked your ass off, paid your dues and now you are seeing the fruits of you labor. Same as me. The way things are going now, fewer people are going to get the opportunity you had This thread isn't about limiting opportunity, its about limiting poverty.

Tell me, does a living wage necessarily limit anybody from achieving more?

The introduction of a "living wage" simply puts all the people near the bottom on a new floor and actually hurts the poor due to massive tax increases and inflation so you're really just increasing what the poverty level is.

 

[tightpockt]

The introduction of a "living wage" simply puts all the people near the bottom on a new floor and actually hurts the poor due to massive tax increases and inflation so you're really just increasing what the poverty level is.

This brings up another question. Once someone is making a "living wage" then does public assistance stop? If so, how does that increase the net amount of money the minimum wage worker has? Simply put..would their debt to income ratio be higher?
There's a point to be made that more tax money would be generated and less money spent on welfare but inevitably wouldn't inflation rise to meet the new "minimum"? Does that mean someone already making $20 an hour in effect gets a pay cut because their money isn't worth the same amount anymore?

 

[aTTicRaT]

You are dong great. I think you'd do great in just about any system that enables people to benefit from hard work and want to achieve success. You worked your ass off, paid your dues and now you are seeing the fruits of you labor. Same as me. The way things are going now, fewer people are going to get the opportunity you had This thread isn't about limiting opportunity, its about limiting poverty.

Tell me, does a living wage necessarily limit anybody from achieving more?

No but people are expecting a much higher wage for a menial task. If you make a certain wage you should set you budget to fit in said wage. It's simple supply and demand if anyone can do the task it should not be rewarded highly. If such task requires a skilled specialist it should be rewarded highly. The term "living wage" already exists it's called study, work hard, keep your head on straight, and get a fucking education.

 

[Fogdog]

So how do you force a small business to DOUBLE it's biggest expense, which is labor and still stay competitive with the price points of wal-mart and the like? Even Mcdonnalds for instance..it's not like that would effect mcdonnalds the corporation that much percentage of profits wise... it will effect the franchise owner significantly however. Of course you can't really raise the price of product that much, mcdonalds is too expensive for what it is already. I went there yesterday and got a number 5 for $7.50ish,,,even if it went up .50 cents I'd start going to one of the million other places in my area. So either it comes out of the pocket of the consumer or the franchise owner and the market wont support a price raise so we're left with the franchise owner. Why should he take a $50,000 a year pay cut because the people who work for him didn't feel like going to high school?
Why do we act like the work someone puts in today is the only thing that matters? I hear things like "I work hard and deserve (we'll get into this word in a bit) to make x amount of dollars" well what about all of that other time you weren't doing shit while the guy next door was hitting the books, cultivating a plan, taking risks, etc..
Some of these sentiments are like people just popped into existence at 32 years old and found themselves in this predicament of being uneducated with 2 kids to take care of and that this somehow happened to them.
I'm pretty poor and it's all my fault. I didn't care about school, I fucked around in the Navy and didn't really apply myself. I spent my time chasing girls and smoking weed and now it's all catching up to me. I'd like to have more money and a higher station but I didn't do anything to get there and just ONCE I'd like to hear someone say the same thing.
Honestly, I'm not belly aching, it's an even trade because I value my free time more than anything but I did paint myself into a bit of a corner in terms of my marketability which limits my options.
Also, when did minimum wage entry level jobs turn into a career?! If that's the case I'll just scoop ice cream the rest of my life...I can get by on $600 a week if it means I don't have any other responsibilities.

I explained why raising the mnimum would not affect unemployment in my previous post and don't want to do it again here.

I don't know where you see anything that i wrote that talked about doubling expenses or anything like that. As far as it goes, small businesses don't compete with Walmart. If Walmart wants to they flatten them, they are done. Walmart does it with imported crap. I don't know why people shop there. As far a McD's or burger joints, I don't eat that stuff any more so I'm not up to date on their costs or cost structures. I managed a burger joint when I was a kid. Labor costs ran roughly 20% of gross expenses*. Wages at or slightly more than the current minimum didn't affect it much -- sales and management practices had a much larger effect. I don't know what current margins are but doubt they are higher than what I saw.

The thing is, the minimum wage is not a livable wage. I'd like to see a more serious effort to enable people to move into better paying jobs where there is already serious shortages. And you know what? I bet you'd make a great employee in one of the areas where there is a shortage of workers, like electrician. But you need training, which circles back to how I'd like to see more effort made in this area.

A belly ache of mine is how big business is always crying about how trained labor is not available, yet they lay people off at the drop of a hat. Why would a kid take years of training just so they can get batted about by poorly managed companies? If they want people to want their jobs, companies might try to make the jobs attractive.

Anyway, I don't think your gripe was about my look at the economics of the minimum wage, it has more to do with everything else going on. It sounds to me like you are dissatisfied with where you are at and that is as good a starting point as any for figuring it all out. Good luck.to you.

*edit: it was actually 20% of revenue.

 

[tightpockt]

I explained why raising the mnimum would not affect unemployment in my previous post and don't want to do it again here.

I don't know where you see anything that i wrote that talked about doubling expenses or anything like that. As far as it goes, small businesses don't compete with Walmart. If Walmart wants to they flatten them, they are done. Walmart does it with imported crap. I don't know why people shop there. As far a McD's or burger joints, I don't eat that stuff any more so I'm not up to date on their costs or cost structures. I managed a burger joint when I was a kid. Labor costs ran roughly 20% of gross expenses. Wages at or slightly more than the current minimum didn't affect it much -- sales and management practices had a much larger effect. I don't know what current margins are but doubt they are higher than what I saw.

The thing is, the minimum wage is not a livable wage. I'd like to see a more serious effort to enable people to move into better paying jobs where there is already serious shortages. And you know what? I bet you'd make a great employee in one of the areas where there is a shortage of workers, like electrician. But you need training, which circles back to how I'd like to see more effort made in this area.

A belly ache of mine is how big business is always crying about how trained labor is not available, yet they lay people off at the drop of a hat. Why would a kid take years of training just so they can get batted about by poorly managed companies? If they want people to want their jobs, companies might try to make the jobs attractive.

Anyway, I don't think your gripe was about my look at the economics of the minimum wage, it has more to do with everything else going on. It sounds to me like you are dissatisfied with where you are at and that is as good a starting point as any for figuring it all out. Good luck.to you.

Maybe you're right that my argument isn't based on economics, I'm just looking at it through the viewpoint of a small business owner mixed with some transference. What I mean by the transference part is that I'm a pretty self sufficient and accountable guy and I just don't understand why more people aren't. Lately all I see is finger pointing and reasons why everybody's problems are someone else's fault.

 

[Fogdog]

No but people are expecting a much higher wage for a menial task. If you make a certain wage you should set you budget to fit in said wage. It's simple supply and demand if anyone can do the task it should not be rewarded highly. If such task requires a skilled specialist it should be rewarded highly. The term "living wage" already exists it's called study, work hard, keep your head on straight, and get a fucking education.

I think you have done a great job of getting yourself in a good position. I applaud that. I agree that your kind of position should be earned with extra effort. I want my freeways and hospitals designed with the help of competent engineers! Yours is not ever going to be paid at the lowest living wage, it should not and could not. You wouldn't have done all that work if it didn't benefit you. On the other hand, not everybody can be engineers, doctors and lawyers. I don't know why but that is so.

We aren't talking about making everybody rich, and we aren't talking about keeping people from getting rich. For the, I don't know, pick a number, bottom 25% of wage earners making equal to or near poverty wages, we are talking about raising their wages enough -- if they budget really well -- to make a living that keep parents and kids fed, housed, clean, clothed, with medical benefits and enough to save for retirement. In jobs that they are qualified to do and that are needed. And we allow them the dignity of knowing that they are doing this so they can do well. After that, its up to them.

As far as I know, people pay for education so that's not ever going to be a living wage in and of itself.

 

[Fogdog]

The introduction of a "living wage" simply puts all the people near the bottom on a new floor and actually hurts the poor due to massive tax increases and inflation so you're really just increasing what the poverty level is.

Actually, poverty is not defined according the wage floor, it is defined by their ability to acquire food, clothing, shelter and housing. I don't understand your second point. Tell me again how making a living wage will hurt people?

 

[Fogdog]

Maybe you're right that my argument isn't based on economics, I'm just looking at it through the viewpoint of a small business owner mixed with some transference. What I mean by the transference part is that I'm a pretty self sufficient and accountable guy and I just don't understand why more people aren't. Lately all I see is finger pointing and reasons why everybody's problems are someone else's fault.

I'm not sure where you saw me pointing fingers in this thread. As far as I know, Padwan posed a question regarding a hypothetical living wage. I tried to stick to his topic.

 

[ttystikk]

The most important political competition over the next decades will not be between the right and left, or between Republicans and Democrats. It will be between a majority of Americans who have been losing ground, and an economic elite that refuses to recognize or respond to its growing distress.
-Robert Reich

 

[Glaucoma]

How well did his company run?

The only metric I can use to answer that is that he remains in business today. He employs maybe 7 people.

 

[superloud]

I'm getting your point. However, I don't completely agree with you.

If you have a wife and child, and your wife working part time brings in $100 a week, and you are struggling to make ends meet, so badly that $40 breaks your budget, something went wrong somewhere.

Yes, I agree that minimum wage should be higher, no doubt about that. But everyone's circumstances are different. I grew up with a well to do family so it's expected of me to do well as an adult, and I have. But not everyone has had the same advantages in life. But if we take my friend, for example, he grew up in a fairly poor household, but still managed to work his way through college and work very hard to become what he is today. He has a wife and kids, makes $100,000 a year and still manages to live paycheck to paycheck. He's just dumb about his finances. I have another friend who came from a well to do family, his college was paid for, is now divorced, pays alimony, has a child, owns a home in a very nice neighborhood in north Boston area, and he pulls in $80,000 a year at best, and still manages to put money away for himself and his kid. Neither of them complain, they just work hard and know they are in charge of their own destiny.

If I knew your age and your background, I could be a better judge.

80,000 at best is a lot of money. I bring home under 30000 a year. Even if I were just making 50000 a year would make a huge difference in the way I live. There will always be idiots that no matter how much money they have they will always be broke because they want to spend it on lavish things. Something did go wrong everything kept on going up in price gas prices are extremely high.Crocheted are extremely high and all my bills are extremely high. Take this week for example I just worked a hundred and five hours for this pay check brought home $840 650 of that is going towards my rent Then at least 200 of it is going towards groceries for the next two weeks. So that they are leave me 10 dollars in debt and then my wife $200 comes in to pay for gas and the utility bill.

 

[superloud]

Okay let's look at the company I work for. They make those Breathe Right strips that you put on your nose to help you snoring. And bandages like Johnson and Johnson band aids and catheter secures that they use in all hospitals around the world. My company makes 90 percent of the world health care products when it comes to bandages and Things like that. I work in one of the 22 different facilities located around the world. This facility itself grosses 11 million dollars a month. That is a hundred and thirty two million dollars a year. This facility has about 200 or less employees. F all 200 of us got paid 50,000 a year instead of 20000 a year That would be 10 million dollars. So not even an entire month of revenue for this facility. And that 11 million dollars a month is just for this one facility out of the 22 that we have. I'm not looking to get rich I'm just looking to live Without constantly stressing about paying my bills. Without having to borrow money to have gas to get to work that week to work a job that's not fucking pay me enough. These companies can afford to pay their employees more and still make tenfold of what their employees make

 

[sheskunk]

Ok, so you were serious about threatening women that they were at risk of having to sell their vagina to nasty fat men if they didn't tow the line, work hard and have good fortune. I get it. Status quo. True red conservative.

Your way assures fat old men a supply of women that end up with the short end of the stick, so to speak.

I don't want to be that fat guy by the way -- I like to be intimate with a woman I can talk to, which means someone my age. The thing is, I reject your vision of an eternity of threatening people with poverty as if that's the only way to get them to succeed. In reality we get better from people than realized with threats and fear.. One can get more from people that are not afraid and that don't limit themselves to the sure path to success because failure is unthinkable. This discussion is about an alternative to the status quo.

As you wallow through a thread full of people crying for more money.

The discussion is about burger flippers wanting more money than they are worth.

Minimum wage is not = to living wage.
Otherwise they would be called the same thing.

Want more money? Educate yourself. Pretty simple solution. There are plenty of people out there living successful lives.

 

[Harrekin]

80,000 at best is a lot of money. I bring home under 30000 a year. Even if I were just making 50000 a year would make a huge difference in the way I live. There will always be idiots that no matter how much money they have they will always be broke because they want to spend it on lavish things. Something did go wrong everything kept on going up in price gas prices are extremely high.Crocheted are extremely high and all my bills are extremely high. Take this week for example I just worked a hundred and five hours for this pay check brought home $840 650 of that is going towards my rent Then at least 200 of it is going towards groceries for the next two weeks. So that they are leave me 10 dollars in debt and then my wife $200 comes in to pay for gas and the utility bill.

So essentially you made bad choices and now expect others to pick up the slack because you're not bothered to do anything about it yourself?

Learn something online, massive shortages of computer programmers and it can be learnt for free in about a million places online.

A C# coder here starts on about €50,000 ($55,000) and I can find hundreds of jobs listed in Dublin (population about 1.5mill) alone.

 

[Harrekin]

Okay let's look at the company I work for. They make those Breathe Right strips that you put on your nose to help you snoring. And bandages like Johnson and Johnson band aids and catheter secures that they use in all hospitals around the world. My company makes 90 percent of the world health care products when it comes to bandages and Things like that. I work in one of the 22 different facilities located around the world. This facility itself grosses 11 million dollars a month. That is a hundred and thirty two million dollars a year. This facility has about 200 or less employees. F all 200 of us got paid 50,000 a year instead of 20000 a year That would be 10 million dollars. So not even an entire month of revenue for this facility. And that 11 million dollars a month is just for this one facility out of the 22 that we have. I'm not looking to get rich I'm just looking to live Without constantly stressing about paying my bills. Without having to borrow money to have gas to get to work that week to work a job that's not fucking pay me enough. These companies can afford to pay their employees more and still make tenfold of what their employees make

How do you know the facility's expenses don't run at 10.5mill dollars a month?

 

[theexpress]

NYC is full of transvestites,cocaine and good times lol at least so my brother tells me i wouldn't kno ive only been on the west coast and now denver

the west coast and Denver are expensive to.. last I saw on Craig's list a one bedroom apt in Denver is like 1100$ Before legalization same one bedroom was like 750

 

[gunnar&carey]

the west coast and Denver are expensive to.. last I saw on Craig's list a one bedroom apt in Denver is like 1100$ Before legalization same one bedroom was like 750

Ur right man legalization fucked up the housing market in co

 

[theexpress]

Ur right man legalization fucked up the housing market in co

Yes. To my understanding the supply of housing and construction hasn't kept up with demand. Denver is one of the fastest growing cities in the us. All those cock suckers from California came threw with all there home equity built up cuz they got priced out of California. Also a lot of Texans and Midwesterns from Chicago and Michigan also

 

[theexpress]