What is this?

myke

Well-Known Member
I made another thread in the General area. Thought I’d ask here also.Bringing in my outdoor sips for the year thought I’d amend them. Looking at the soil I’m finding these salt looking clumps located exactly where I did my Gaia top dressing. See photos. What am I looking at? Used up Gaia? 0E492D67-0C82-475C-9E45-153D64B57CFC.jpeg450A22D4-34C5-441B-B26A-79964060A967.jpeg99B4EEE6-C5A7-4983-8E49-305407B77B51.jpeg
 
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kratos015

Well-Known Member
Looks kind of like Calcium sediment, but I'm trying to figure out how that would even make sense. Looks just like what you'd see in a bag of gypsum, or the scaling on my faucets. Got a few questions to ask to hopefully get an idea of what it is, but I have a theory.

You mentioned this was your outdoor SIP, does your outdoor SIP get different water than your indoor ones? If its tap water, do you know the PPMs of it? Hard or soft?

Do you use rain water, or did rain water get into your outdoor SIP?

Do you use anything else besides Gaia green in your soil? Anything at all?

Any notable differences between your indoor and outdoor SIPs? Ingredients, water, literally anything, no matter how seemingly silly or small.

I'm guessing this is the first time you've seen this in any of your SIPs/grows?




Consider everything below is just my theory. I don't really believe there is much cause for alarm here, however one can never know too much and will be more on guard and vigilant. If that sediment has been there for a couple months and you haven't experienced any issues, you likely won't ever experience any issues.



According to the Gaia website, the 4-4-4 has 12% Ca and the 4-8-2 has 16%, which is strange because the 4-4-4 has Gypsum and OSF, so I'd think the 4-8-2 would have less Ca since it only has Gypsum, but I digress.

12-16% Ca is quite a bit of Calcium, especially when this is combined with your soil's buffering agent. Not only does your soil have Ca coming from the Gaia Green, but your Lime/OSF as well.

I had to stop using Crab Meal for this exact reason, has between 11-18% Ca depending on the brand. Way too much Calcium, fact is, if we're using dolomite lime or even OSF, that should provide all the Calcium we will ever need. My well water has loads of limestone/calcium carbonate in it, so I haven't used any other Calcium inputs in years. Kind of crazy just how many of these organic mixes have 10%+ Ca content for literally no reason. Why any of these companies would throw OSF in an organic amendment blend is absolutely beyond me.


The reason this sediment is likely appearing is due to the fact that the plants aren't using the Calcium from the Gaia Green anymore because there is already enough Calcium in the soil. The plant is pulling Calcium from your buffer agent, and possibly your water (depending on the source). As a result of this, the Calcium in your Gaia Green has gone unworked because it is now extra.

Thankfully, gypsum is a sulfate and not a carbonate, so excessive amounts won't harm one's soil too much. Think of Calcium Carbonate just the same as you would scaling on a faucet. The faucet doesn't immediately get covered in scaling, it happens over a gradual process.

Did you notice any issues with this particular grow that you never noticed before? Signs of deficiencies/toxicities that you've never encountered before? Anything different?

Maybe scoop some of that up, mix it with some water, and pH it? If the pH comes out 7.5 or above, the sediment is very likely Calcium. However, to find out if the Calcium is a Carbonate, we simply need to check if the water buffers or not after 24-48 hours. Once you've tested the sediment+water slurry and it shows a 7.5+ pH, dunk vinegar, lemon or lime juice into the pH solution until it shows a 4.0-5.0 pH.

If in 24-48 hours the pH is still acidic, the sediment is likely gypsum as it isn't buffering the pH. If the pH buffers back to 7.0+, the sediment is likely the OSF/Calcium Carbonate from the Gaia Green mix.

Since the pile is appearing where you top dressed your Gaia Green, my theory is that what you're seeing is the now unused Calcium from either the Gypsum or the OSF that Gaia Green has in it.

If the sediment is gypsum, you likely won't be seeing any issues.

If the sediment is OSF, be mindful of this and on the lookout for potential issues related to excess Calcium/excess Carbonate. Excess Ca will lock out Mg, K, and even P. If the Ca source is a carbonate, it will excessively buffer your soil in combination with your liming agent, resulting in alkaline pH of 8.0 and above. Should any of these symptoms manifest, the issue is excess Calcium/buffering agents.

It might be worth looking into new amendment blends, ones that don't have such high Calcium contents in it. Be mindful, not all companies advertise their Calcium contents. Checking the ingredients of these blends for things like OSF, Crab/crustacean meals, Bone meals, gypsum, and so forth.



tl:dr: There is likely no cause for concern here, however there are still things worth being on the lookout for. Just in case. It's very likely nothing, just unused gypsum or OSF from your Gaia blends. Be on the look out for potential issues that could arise, such as phantom deficiencies/toxicities from alkaline pH levels, or sudden Mg and/or K lockouts. Should either of those things start to manifest themselves, it might be time to look for new organic blends that don't have such high Ca levels.

Not trying to make you, or anyone else paranoid. This is likely nothing, especially if you haven't experienced any issues in these past couple of months with that sediment there. Never hurts to know the above though.

Regards.
 

myke

Well-Known Member
Ahh yes. Calcium. Bingo. Funny a friend just mentioned that. I think your right. Hard water fed. These were outside tomatoes so they only got topdress twice I think the whole season. Big sips 27g. Soil lasted the whole season. 4.5 months.
I believe this is calcium from my water. Assuming as water wicking up from the bottom and evaporated on the surface leaving behind the calcium. Same on my taps.
My indoor sips get a lot more of the Gaia and frequent EWC top ups so I’m always scratching in the top dress. Never noticed any calcium build up but I’ll for sure be on the look out now.
The outdoor sips were basically left alone. Only twice did I disturb the soil surface. So makes sense I’m seeing this build up.
I’ll try your pH test and let ya know. Thanks much.
 

myke

Well-Known Member
Some answers. Tap water approx 200 ppm hard. Municipal water. High Ca Mg.
nothing added different then indoors sips. Basic soil recipe frass kelp alpha dolomite lime Gaia ,rock dust etc….
Only difference is indoor sips got a lot more top dress.
So if it’s left over from the Gaia their should be a lot in my indoor sips. Covered in sand right now but will be checking at harvest which is soon.
 

mudballs

Well-Known Member
There's no way a 200ppm tap water did that...its just a bunch of that non water soluble white substances settling out.
 

myke

Well-Known Member
Some pics of the tomatoes. I also had some smaller pots 7g that experience blossom end rot. None of my 15g or sips did. But have a look at the leaves. Perhaps Ca toxicity? I thought it was a deficiency. FDF5A175-B2E3-4824-B140-734D353B709C.jpeg94ED76BD-8F21-46EE-BFE5-F91891E8F389.jpeg
 

myke

Well-Known Member
So doing a ph test. Vial on the left is straight distilled water. Right is soil test of mostly the substance in question. So looks high. Figured that. So now I’ll ph it down with vinegar and report back tomorrow. Cheers. 231AE497-4739-4912-A03F-B508EFFBBBF5.jpeg
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
So doing a ph test. Vial on the left is straight distilled water. Right is soil test of mostly the substance in question. So looks high. Figured that. So now I’ll ph it down with vinegar and report back tomorrow. Cheers. View attachment 5015627
Yeah, definitely Calcium with that pH. Exact same color I get when I pH my tap water from the well. Now all that's left to do is wait the 24+ hours after applying the vinegar, and seeing if the pH buffers back to alkalinity or not. Based on what I'm hearing, it seems like the residue is most likely gypsum and not Calcium Carbonate. If the pH water solution fails to return to that same shade of green (7.0+ pH), then the residue is gypsum. Should the pH of the water solution return to 7.0 or above, the residue is likely Calcium Carbonate from the OSF in Gaia Green.

Regardless of if it is gypsum or carbonate, its all Calcium nonetheless.


Some pics of the tomatoes. I also had some smaller pots 7g that experience blossom end rot. None of my 15g or sips did. But have a look at the leaves. Perhaps Ca toxicity? I thought it was a deficiency. View attachment 5015584View attachment 5015585
You thought right. What you're seeing there isn't solely Ca toxicity, but rather a Mg/K deficiency as a result of the excess Ca levels.

K plays a large role in setting fruits, flower production, and so forth. Blossom end rot is actually a sign of a lack of Potassium. The fruits set just fine, but don't have enough nutrition to continue growing, so you get blossom rot. Where there's blossom end rot, there's likely a Potassium deficiency or lock out. In this case, it sounds like it is a lockout from excess Calcium.

The thing with excess Calcium is that you won't see actual toxicity from the excess Calcium, it'll manifest itself in the form of Magnesium and Potassium lockout. Remember; Calcium, Potassium, and Magnesium are part of a "trinity" so to speak. If one is in excess, the others will be locked out. If one is deficient, the others will be locked out. Very delicate balance between the three.

I notice those appear to be cherry tomatoes? Something to consider about cherry tomatoes, they are extremely forgiving. Had another type of tomato been grown in that pot, the Ca/K lockout would have likely been more apparent.

Blossom end rot, flowers that develop but never open, and fruits that die immediately after pollination are all signs of K deficiency and/or lockout.


The reason it manifested in your 7g SIPs first is due to volume/mass. Excess Calcium issues will manifest themselves in your smaller pots well before they appear in your larger ones.

From everything that you're telling me, your excess Calcium isn't in Carbonate form, and likely isn't affecting your pH negatively. However, the excess Calcium is starting to block out Magnesium and Potassium. As I mentioned above, blossom end rot, and the failure of flowers/fruits to "set" after pollination, are sure fire signs that Mg/K are being locked out by excessive Ca. When growing cannabis, this will result in buds that look fat as fuck, but never end up filling out.

Ahh yes. Calcium. Bingo. Funny a friend just mentioned that. I think your right. Hard water fed. These were outside tomatoes so they only got topdress twice I think the whole season. Big sips 27g. Soil lasted the whole season. 4.5 months.
I believe this is calcium from my water. Assuming as water wicking up from the bottom and evaporated on the surface leaving behind the calcium. Same on my taps.
My indoor sips get a lot more of the Gaia and frequent EWC top ups so I’m always scratching in the top dress. Never noticed any calcium build up but I’ll for sure be on the look out now.
The outdoor sips were basically left alone. Only twice did I disturb the soil surface. So makes sense I’m seeing this build up.
I’ll try your pH test and let ya know. Thanks much.
This is why I believed excess Calcium was the issue at play here.

Calcium Carbonate is water insoluble, so even if we're watering our SIPs with water full of Calcium Carbonate, the carbonate is water insoluble and thus will not traverse through the entire substrate but will rather stay at the bottom of the SIP reservoirs. Confirming this is quite simple, look at the bottom of your SIP and see if you can't find any scaling/residue.

However, even if it is not water soluble, and is NOT affecting your pH, it is still Calcium. Even if its purely residue on the bottom of your SIPs, it is still a part of the soil web as a whole, as the Calcium "infects" your water so to speak.


tl;dr: I don't believe you'll have issues related to excess alkalinity from water infected with carbonate. However, you will soon likely encounter K/Mg lockout from excess Calcium. As I pointed out above, it has already manifested itself in your smaller 7g SIPs. If you continue to do the same thing, you will see this issue manifest itself in your 15g+ SIPs in another few months.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
There's no way a 200ppm tap water did that...its just a bunch of that non water soluble white substances settling out.
Correct. Not much calcium is water soluble, this is especially true when it is in carbonate form. This is why my first thought seeing this chalky substance was Calcium.

OP's tap water wasn't a direct cause of this, but definitely played an indirect role. 200ppm water typically does have both Calcium and Magnesium in it, but the Calcium used in municipal water that tests <200 ppms is typically not in Carbonate form, and thus will not affect one's pH. In fact, that majority of municipal water sources shouldn't negatively effect pH in terms of alkalinity. Not all Calcium is in carbonate form, capable of causing alkaline pH. Calcium doesn't cause alkaline pH, carbonate does. That said, Calcium is still Calcium.

It is well water sources that are typically problematic. Huge difference between water that is "hard" coming from a municipal water district, compared to water that is "hard" coming from an underground well source. The water districts typically add and/or subtract things to the water to get it to a specific PPM, whereas well water does not have a water district adding and subtracting things from the well water. What you get is what you get, and with "hard" well water, problems are typically the result of calcium carbonate in the water, or excess iron in some cases. Depends on where the water is coming from.

Looks like this is in fact a Calcium issue, but it isn't that much of an "issue". I've seen @myke tomato plant photos before, they look very text book in terms of overall health and the like. The bottom leaves do in fact show slight Mg deficiencies, however the overall health of the plant is great, so I'm inclined to believe that there isn't much of an issue overall. However, it could manifest itself as an issue at any moment, and IMO this is the perfect time to take action and remedy the situation.

Having read some of OPs responses, I'm thinking that the residue is mostly the gypsum from the Gaia Green top dresses, and not the OSF. While this is technically an "imbalance" so to speak, it isn't likely to cause issues if it is in fact just the Gypsum.

Since OPs uses different water outdoors, water has Calcium in it already, he can still use Gaia Green indoors and be just fine. That residue is certainly Calcium, but likely in the form of Gypsum which is a sulfate and not a carbonate and should not negatively affect the soil too much in terms of pH, but there is definitely a risk of excess Ca locking out K/Mg. OP can keep using Gaia Green indoors, so long as the water is RO/Distilled, which I'd guess he's doing if his indoor SIPs don't have this residue.

Simply finding organic blends devoid of Calcium, and continuing to use his tap water from the hose, will quickly remedy the problem. Hell, its not even that much of a problem for now. However, given enough time in a no-till environment, excess is still excess.

OP needs to be mindful of the fact that his outdoor water source has Calcium in it, and remove Calcium inputs from his top dresses in the future. While OP likely won't experience issues related to excessive alkalinity from carbonate sources in water/dirt, this will become a Calcium toxicity at some point in time. If OP continues to use Gaia in the outdoor SIPs, the water needs to be RO/distilled like it is indoors.

However, the simpler approach would be to top dress with amendments devoid of Calcium, and allow the water to be the source for Calcium. With organics/living soil, there is greater success to be had by working with what you have as opposed to against it.

Like my limestone well water for instance. I could try to pH down the water and murder my soil with sulfur, but that's way too time consuming and costly. Rather than work against my water, I work with it. I simply removed all Ca inputs from my soil, and stopped liming my soil, as my water not only limes my soil but also provides sufficient Ca to the soil as well.
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
Correct. Not much calcium is water soluble, this is especially true when it is in carbonate form. This is why my first thought seeing this chalky substance was Calcium.

OP's tap water wasn't a direct cause of this, but definitely played an indirect role. 200ppm water typically does have both Calcium and Magnesium in it, but the Calcium used in municipal water that tests <200 ppms is typically not in Carbonate form, and thus will not affect one's pH. In fact, that majority of municipal water sources shouldn't negatively effect pH in terms of alkalinity. Not all Calcium is in carbonate form, capable of causing alkaline pH. Calcium doesn't cause alkaline pH, carbonate does. That said, Calcium is still Calcium.

It is well water sources that are typically problematic. Huge difference between water that is "hard" coming from a municipal water district, compared to water that is "hard" coming from an underground well source. The water districts typically add and/or subtract things to the water to get it to a specific PPM, whereas well water does not have a water district adding and subtracting things from the well water. What you get is what you get, and with "hard" well water, problems are typically the result of calcium carbonate in the water, or excess iron in some cases. Depends on where the water is coming from.

Looks like this is in fact a Calcium issue, but it isn't that much of an "issue". I've seen @myke tomato plant photos before, they look very text book in terms of overall health and the like. The bottom leaves do in fact show slight Mg deficiencies, however the overall health of the plant is great, so I'm inclined to believe that there isn't much of an issue overall. However, it could manifest itself as an issue at any moment, and IMO this is the perfect time to take action and remedy the situation.

Having read some of OPs responses, I'm thinking that the residue is mostly the gypsum from the Gaia Green top dresses, and not the OSF. While this is technically an "imbalance" so to speak, it isn't likely to cause issues if it is in fact just the Gypsum.

Since OPs uses different water outdoors, water has Calcium in it already, he can still use Gaia Green indoors and be just fine. That residue is certainly Calcium, but likely in the form of Gypsum which is a sulfate and not a carbonate and should not negatively affect the soil too much in terms of pH, but there is definitely a risk of excess Ca locking out K/Mg. OP can keep using Gaia Green indoors, so long as the water is RO/Distilled, which I'd guess he's doing if his indoor SIPs don't have this residue.

Simply finding organic blends devoid of Calcium, and continuing to use his tap water from the hose, will quickly remedy the problem. Hell, its not even that much of a problem for now. However, given enough time in a no-till environment, excess is still excess.

OP needs to be mindful of the fact that his outdoor water source has Calcium in it, and remove Calcium inputs from his top dresses in the future. While OP likely won't experience issues related to excessive alkalinity from carbonate sources in water/dirt, this will become a Calcium toxicity at some point in time. If OP continues to use Gaia in the outdoor SIPs, the water needs to be RO/distilled like it is indoors.

However, the simpler approach would be to top dress with amendments devoid of Calcium, and allow the water to be the source for Calcium. With organics/living soil, there is greater success to be had by working with what you have as opposed to against it.

Like my limestone well water for instance. I could try to pH down the water and murder my soil with sulfur, but that's way too time consuming and costly. Rather than work against my water, I work with it. I simply removed all Ca inputs from my soil, and stopped liming my soil, as my water not only limes my soil but also provides sufficient Ca to the soil as well.
You really need to make a book man. I'd buy it, lol. Seriously though.
 

myke

Well-Known Member
Yeah, definitely Calcium with that pH. Exact same color I get when I pH my tap water from the well. Now all that's left to do is wait the 24+ hours after applying the vinegar, and seeing if the pH buffers back to alkalinity or not. Based on what I'm hearing, it seems like the residue is most likely gypsum and not Calcium Carbonate. If the pH water solution fails to return to that same shade of green (7.0+ pH), then the residue is gypsum. Should the pH of the water solution return to 7.0 or above, the residue is likely Calcium Carbonate from the OSF in Gaia Green.

Regardless of if it is gypsum or carbonate, its all Calcium nonetheless.




You thought right. What you're seeing there isn't solely Ca toxicity, but rather a Mg/K deficiency as a result of the excess Ca levels.

K plays a large role in setting fruits, flower production, and so forth. Blossom end rot is actually a sign of a lack of Potassium. The fruits set just fine, but don't have enough nutrition to continue growing, so you get blossom rot. Where there's blossom end rot, there's likely a Potassium deficiency or lock out. In this case, it sounds like it is a lockout from excess Calcium.

The thing with excess Calcium is that you won't see actual toxicity from the excess Calcium, it'll manifest itself in the form of Magnesium and Potassium lockout. Remember; Calcium, Potassium, and Magnesium are part of a "trinity" so to speak. If one is in excess, the others will be locked out. If one is deficient, the others will be locked out. Very delicate balance between the three.

I notice those appear to be cherry tomatoes? Something to consider about cherry tomatoes, they are extremely forgiving. Had another type of tomato been grown in that pot, the Ca/K lockout would have likely been more apparent.

Blossom end rot, flowers that develop but never open, and fruits that die immediately after pollination are all signs of K deficiency and/or lockout.


The reason it manifested in your 7g SIPs first is due to volume/mass. Excess Calcium issues will manifest themselves in your smaller pots well before they appear in your larger ones.

From everything that you're telling me, your excess Calcium isn't in Carbonate form, and likely isn't affecting your pH negatively. However, the excess Calcium is starting to block out Magnesium and Potassium. As I mentioned above, blossom end rot, and the failure of flowers/fruits to "set" after pollination, are sure fire signs that Mg/K are being locked out by excessive Ca. When growing cannabis, this will result in buds that look fat as fuck, but never end up filling out.



This is why I believed excess Calcium was the issue at play here.

Calcium Carbonate is water insoluble, so even if we're watering our SIPs with water full of Calcium Carbonate, the carbonate is water insoluble and thus will not traverse through the entire substrate but will rather stay at the bottom of the SIP reservoirs. Confirming this is quite simple, look at the bottom of your SIP and see if you can't find any scaling/residue.

However, even if it is not water soluble, and is NOT affecting your pH, it is still Calcium. Even if its purely residue on the bottom of your SIPs, it is still a part of the soil web as a whole, as the Calcium "infects" your water so to speak.


tl;dr: I don't believe you'll have issues related to excess alkalinity from water infected with carbonate. However, you will soon likely encounter K/Mg lockout from excess Calcium. As I pointed out above, it has already manifested itself in your smaller 7g SIPs. If you continue to do the same thing, you will see this issue manifest itself in your 15g+ SIPs in another few months.
Thanks for the response. Maybe some confusion but I use same tap water inside and out.
Thinking back when I transplanted into these outdoor sips. I added an extra shot of dolomite lime prior to,thinking tomatoes can use the extra.

Now not noticing this in my indoor cannabis sips. Is it possible they are consuming all the Ca? I can’t for sure say this same problem exists right now.But I’m top dressing quite often so I would think I would have noticed this by now. It was quite obvious on the outdoor sips once I lifted the lid off.
I’ll be checking soon. Will have to remove sand first.
 
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