They are only tools

canndo · Dec 18, 2012

I wonder what the real attachment is to firearms and if it is universal. I really don't know. On the one hand I see people rightfully claiming that we cannot blame the weapon for how it is used but this indicates that there is no emotional involvement and that is false. I have yet to hear of anyone saying "you can have my wood chipper when you pry it from my cold dead fingers" or my bible, the constituton and my chainsaw.

What is it exactly that has this tool be such an emotionaly charged "tool" exactly?

desert dude · Dec 18, 2012

canndo said:
I wonder what the real attachment is to firearms and if it is universal. I really don't know. On the one hand I see people rightfully claiming that we cannot blame the weapon for how it is used but this indicates that there is no emotional involvement and that is false. I have yet to hear of anyone saying "you can have my wood chipper when you pry it from my cold dead fingers" or my bible, the constituton and my chainsaw.

What is it exactly that has this tool be such an emotionaly charged "tool" exactly?

Why did Mao Tse Dung say, "political power comes out of the barrel of a gun."? Why do despots immediately set about disarming the populace? There is a reason the framers of the constitution created the amendments in the order they did.

cannabineer · Dec 18, 2012

I would opine amazement at the number of people who think banning them is a good idea.

I see this as an iceberg, a surface manifestation of a much deeper thing. I notice that especially among the socialist and anarchist contingent here in Politics, there is a general axiom that people, if given freedom, will be nice and cooperative. You have to believe that if you want to rent the idea that removing almost all guns makes for a safer society. I contend however that this is a flawed view of our fellow humans, and in the process a very important right gets pissed away, never to be restored. Have you seen even one country reinstate civilian firearms rights? i have not. cn

aknight3 · Dec 18, 2012

there is a reason its our 2nd amendment of the consti. no one threatens to take your wood chipper away, because, wood chippers dont start revolutions...

cannabineer · Dec 18, 2012

aknight3 said:
there is a reason its our 2nd amendment of the consti. no one threatens to take your wood chipper away, because, wood chippers dont start revolutions...

Except maybe in the Beaver State. ~unionized large rodents~ cn

canndo · Dec 18, 2012

desert dude said:
Why did Mao Tse Dung say, "political power comes out of the barrel of a gun."? Why do despots immediately set about disarming the populace? There is a reason the framers of the constitution created the amendments in the order they did.

There most certainly was a reason and Dung and other despots were correct in their assumptions but I think it is more than the mere ability confered upon an individual to project power that frightened those folks. I don't know what it is exactly and I am wondering publicly. Were it just what you say, that would be one thing but it is more, it is an emotional attachment - you see it on this board for instance.

canndo · Dec 18, 2012

cannabineer said:
I would opine amazement at the number of people who think banning them is a good idea.

I see this as an iceberg, a surface manifestation of a much deeper thing. I notice that especially among the socialist and anarchist contingent here in Politics, there is a general axiom that people, if given freedom, will be nice and cooperative. You have to believe that if you want to rent the idea that removing almost all guns makes for a safer society. I contend however that this is a flawed view of our fellow humans, and in the process a very important right gets pissed away, never to be restored. Have you seen even one country reinstate civilian firearms rights? i have not. cn

I am not sure that a monumental change in government has not allowed the people to once agian gain ownership of firearms but I am just supposing such a thing. Still, this does not describe the emotional attachment to firearms.

canndo · Dec 18, 2012

aknight3 said:
there is a reason its our 2nd amendment of the consti. no one threatens to take your wood chipper away, because, wood chippers dont start revolutions...

Although it is a valid point, I don't think that the average gun owner thinks "I love my colt because it and it alone enables me to overthrow my government". No, I don't think that is it.

Why do people collect weapon after weapon, lots of people have more than the few guns they would need if they were to be actually and only "tools". I would need what in order to protect myself? A shotgun, a reasonably powerrful rifle and a few handguns, one I could keep on my person, one or two I could keep close at my work and or home. Now why own more? Of course there are the standard reactions - why do collectors collect anything? I had a friend who was involved in competition chain saws so of course he had a number of them.

desert dude · Dec 18, 2012

cannabineer said:
Except maybe in the Beaver State. ~unionized large rodents~ cn

Except in "right to chew" states. Nothing more frightening as tooth filled "beaver" gnawing on "wood". :-)

cannabineer · Dec 18, 2012

canndo said:
Although it is a valid point, I don't think that the average gun owner thinks "I love my colt because it and it alone enables me to overthrow my government". No, I don't think that is it.

Why do people collect weapon after weapon, lots of people have more than the few guns they would need if they were to be actually and only "tools". I would need what in order to protect myself? A shotgun, a reasonably powerrful rifle and a few handguns, one I could keep on my person, one or two I could keep close at my work and or home. Now why own more? Of course there are the standard reactions - why do collectors collect anything? I had a friend who was involved in competition chain saws so of course he had a number of them.

I have noticed a strong sentiment of "one day, they won't let you buy one of these any longer". Many folks I've spoken to add to their collections with this thought somewhere in their minds, esp. with (imo) silly "assault weapon" recategorizations going on. A somewhat refracted argument that loosening gun laws decreases their sales? cn

cannabineer · Dec 18, 2012

desert dude said:
Except in "right to chew" states. Nothing more frightening as tooth filled "beaver" gnawing on "wood".

If there had been even one beaver in the Constitutional Congress, we'd have the codified right to disassembly.

cn

canndo · Dec 18, 2012

cannabineer said:
If there had been even one beaver in the Constitutional Congress, we'd have the codified right to disassembly. cn

Really Canna? The right to dissasembly?

desert dude · Dec 18, 2012

canndo said:
Although it is a valid point, I don't think that the average gun owner thinks "I love my colt because it and it alone enables me to overthrow my government". No, I don't think that is it.

Why do people collect weapon after weapon, lots of people have more than the few guns they would need if they were to be actually and only "tools". I would need what in order to protect myself? A shotgun, a reasonably powerrful rifle and a few handguns, one I could keep on my person, one or two I could keep close at my work and or home. Now why own more? Of course there are the standard reactions - why do collectors collect anything? I had a friend who was involved in competition chain saws so of course he had a number of them.

I own a bunch. Would have to crack open the safe to give you an accurate count. I like them. Shooting is fun. I am not emotionally attached to them, though.

I am wise enough to look at history and the nature of man to know governments are ultimately untrustworthy. The history of the US, in particular, makes me realize the great wisdom embodied in our constitution. No, the constitution is not a holy scripture and it is not perfect but I think it is one of the crowning achievements in the political advancements of mankind.

cannabineer · Dec 18, 2012

canndo said:
Really Canna? The right to dissasembly?

All those trees, standing tall in their serried ranks, bearing God's stamp ... "Fell me. Move me. Take me apart." Unless you're one of those dam "strict constructionists" ... they're all wet in their lodges and stuff. cn

desert dude · Dec 18, 2012

desert dude said:
Except in "right to chew" states. Nothing more frightening as tooth filled "beaver" gnawing on "wood".

Boy, I sure fucked up that sentence.

canndo · Dec 18, 2012

desert dude said:
I own a bunch. Would have to crack open the safe to give you an accurate count. I like them. Shooting is fun. I am not emotionally attached to them, though.

I am wise enough to look at history and the nature of man to know governments are ultimately untrustworthy. The history of the US, in particular, makes me realize the great wisdom embodied in our constitution. No, the constitution is not a holy scripture and it is not perfect but I think it is one of the crowning achievements in the political advancements of mankind.

Well I happen to be very fond of our Constitution and I rely on it even when others tell me over and over that it has been shredded, some say that from the left and others from the right. In fact it works rather well even when it has been damaged by both sides.

I contend however that you do have an emotional attachment to your weapons. I further maintain that you would go to lengths you would not go to otherwise in preserving your ability to keep those weapons. I think it is iintersting that gun owners so often refer to knives when discussing their weapons - "well, if guns were banned, criminals would simply use knives", and yet you don't see that as a reasonable exchange at all.

canndo · Dec 18, 2012

desert dude said:
I own a bunch. Would have to crack open the safe to give you an accurate count. I like them. Shooting is fun. I am not emotionally attached to them, though.

I am wise enough to look at history and the nature of man to know governments are ultimately untrustworthy. The history of the US, in particular, makes me realize the great wisdom embodied in our constitution. No, the constitution is not a holy scripture and it is not perfect but I think it is one of the crowning achievements in the political advancements of mankind.

What troubles me is that your wisdom does not extend to knowlege that business is ultimately even more untrustworthy, and less likely to sucumb to the threat of your weapons.

desert dude · Dec 18, 2012

canndo said:
Well I happen to be very fond of our Constitution and I rely on it even when others tell me over and over that it has been shredded, some say that from the left and others from the right. In fact it works rather well even when it has been damaged by both sides.

I contend however that you do have an emotional attachment to your weapons. I further maintain that you would go to lengths you would not go to otherwise in preserving your ability to keep those weapons. I think it is iintersting that gun owners so often refer to knives when discussing their weapons - "well, if guns were banned, criminals would simply use knives", and yet you don't see that as a reasonable exchange at all.

I also collect wood working tools. I am much more emotionally attached to those than I am to any of my guns. I love hand planes, and chisels.

Try as I might, I cannot understand your point in the bolded sentence?

st0wandgrow · Dec 18, 2012

cannabineer said:
I have noticed a strong sentiment of "one day, they won't let you buy one of these any longer". Many folks I've spoken to add to their collections with this thought somewhere in their minds, esp. with (imo) silly "assault weapon" recategorizations going on. A somewhat refracted argument that loosening gun laws decreases their sales? cn

You got it! Every time you hear a whisper of guns control laws being tightened, gun sales go through the roof.

The NRA has been quite successful in this regard. Any coincidence?

desert dude · Dec 18, 2012

canndo said:
What troubles me is that your wisdom does not extend to knowlege that business is ultimately even more untrustworthy, and less likely to sucumb to the threat of your weapons.

Lots of businesses have succumbed to the threat of weapons. Just ask Castro, Chavez and Lenin.

They are only tools

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