NEED HELP! RDWC - Leaves looking leathered, curling, and pH dropping

S

SEG

Member
ROLL UPS, I need some help. I'll try to do my best in describing what has been happening for a WHILE now.

The problem I am having, I thought was caused by bad genetics, so I ditched all the plants my last grow and started from seed.

I also cleaned my entire grow room, bombed it for bugs, rinsed all the equipment ( broke down entire system) with H2O2 bath and then followed that up with an anti-bacterial soap wash. I throughly rinsed the system, put it all back together and started fresh.

Everything was going well from seed to mid veg stage. I was moving to my late veg stage and I've started noticing that the leathers are showing the same signs of leathered looking leaves.


Here are the system stats:

6 site CCH20 8 Gallon w/ chiller
Wt: 66-70 consistently

RO Water Filter - Starting ppm from filter is around 110. I just changed the filters about 8 weeks ago. (*side note, we have pink calcium in the water here but I would think the RO should come out around 0. Regular tap water is coming out at around 160ppm

pH: goes up and down but keeping it in the range of 5.6-6.4, shooting for 5.8-6.2
GH Nutes - 10 part
RH: 60-65%

ppm has never reached over 410
ec has not gone over 0.6
Air Temps stay 78-79 during the on light time

Light is 1000W LED Growers Choice x 2 in a 4 x 8 tent
Air pump is out side the tent

I have had this happen with and without CO2
I am running UVB bars at 20% for 1 hour once a day.

6 mini fans and one larger circulating fan (great air movement)
tons of airbubbles in buckets.

Total system holds about 55 gallons of water. I mixed my nutes at no higher than 10 gallons of water.

Until today the water was 3-6" from the bottom of the net pot. I read on the CCH2O website that the water should be with in a 1/4" of the plant deck so I raised the water levels to just under the next pots.

I will attach several pictures of the current grow as well as the previous that did this. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I have seen others post about this issue but they were growing in soil.

I am also attaching my feeding chart.

Critique, judge, give pointers... whatever, I just need this to stop. I wasted 2021 trying to correct this every way I know how and couldn't find anything that help.
 

Attachments

OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
When you say you use GH - 10 part does that mean you use the 3-part base plus 7 supplements?

I did about 50 DWC grows with RO or distilled water but only used the AN 3-part and Big Bud. Maybe a little Rhino Skin for some silica, any old CalMag once in a while and epsom salts. All the grows I would see on forums that used a lot of supplements would have issues. Most are just shiny baubles to get more money out of growers IMO and I tried a few over the years.

A lot of your leaves look like heat stress and I'm thinking you might be using too much UV. Maybe stop that for a while and see if things improve. Most peeps only use that in later flower from all I've seen.

You also say ppm is never over 410 so with your RO at 110 then your nute levels are only 300 which seems really low for vegging plants. I always started my clones in a tub at 300 then once growth was rocking up it to 500 and beyond tho would only go over 1000 for the stretch then let it go down again. Stretch is a huge growth spurt where the plants can feed at 4x the usual rate they do just before the flip. I'd up the Bloom nutes and add 1/2 dose of Big bud a week before flipping to 'prime the pump' so to say and get rapid bud development with lots more bud sites than waiting until 3 weeks after the flip like I still see a lot of peeps recommend. The other half of the BB at the flip then quit using it at the end of week 5 for a 9 week plant.

When AN came out with pH Perfect I was reluctant to try it after using their previous version but found it made life a lot easier. Never having to bother with pH is a real blessing and once I got used to them I could go the whole grow from clone to crop without ever changing nutes and it worked as good as changing once in a while. No need to change nutes during veg but I would start with fresh nutes at the flip or just after the stretch.

In your fourth pic those leaves look like you might have some sort of fungal disease going on but hard to tell.

I've never heard of pink calcium but the RO filter should remove that too. Could try running 2 RO filters to get cleaner water. I've bought all the parts to build my own system to deal with the tap water here that comes out of a big dugout on the property. Tired of lugging jugs back and forth to town to buy the damn stuff. I'll be leaving space between the RO filter and UV for another RO filter in case it can't get it low enough for my needs. Our water is 400+ppm and pH8+ depending on season and the water in town isn't much different but the RO I buy is almost always below 10ppm. The new manager at the Co-op takes better care of their system than the old one who would let it get over 200 sometimes.

I'd drop the UV and most supplements then a fresh batch of nutes at 500pp real nute level using equal parts of all 3 base ones then see if things improve with new growth.

SEG said:
Total system holds about 55 gallons of water. I mixed my nutes at no higher than 10 gallons of water.
Click to expand...
Not sure what this means. Are you not filling the whole rez?

:peace:
 
S

SEG

Member
OldMedUser said:
When you say you use GH - 10 part does that mean you use the 3-part base plus 7 supplements?

I did about 50 DWC grows with RO or distilled water but only used the AN 3-part and Big Bud. Maybe a little Rhino Skin for some silica, any old CalMag once in a while and epsom salts. All the grows I would see on forums that used a lot of supplements would have issues. Most are just shiny baubles to get more money out of growers IMO and I tried a few over the years.

A lot of your leaves look like heat stress and I'm thinking you might be using too much UV. Maybe stop that for a while and see if things improve. Most peeps only use that in later flower from all I've seen.

You also say ppm is never over 410 so with your RO at 110 then your nute levels are only 300 which seems really low for vegging plants. I always started my clones in a tub at 300 then once growth was rocking up it to 500 and beyond tho would only go over 1000 for the stretch then let it go down again. Stretch is a huge growth spurt where the plants can feed at 4x the usual rate they do just before the flip. I'd up the Bloom nutes and add 1/2 dose of Big bud a week before flipping to 'prime the pump' so to say and get rapid bud development with lots more bud sites than waiting until 3 weeks after the flip like I still see a lot of peeps recommend. The other half of the BB at the flip then quit using it at the end of week 5 for a 9 week plant.

When AN came out with pH Perfect I was reluctant to try it after using their previous version but found it made life a lot easier. Never having to bother with pH is a real blessing and once I got used to them I could go the whole grow from clone to crop without ever changing nutes and it worked as good as changing once in a while. No need to change nutes during veg but I would start with fresh nutes at the flip or just after the stretch.

In your fourth pic those leaves look like you might have some sort of fungal disease going on but hard to tell.

I've never heard of pink calcium but the RO filter should remove that too. Could try running 2 RO filters to get cleaner water. I've bought all the parts to build my own system to deal with the tap water here that comes out of a big dugout on the property. Tired of lugging jugs back and forth to town to buy the damn stuff. I'll be leaving space between the RO filter and UV for another RO filter in case it can't get it low enough for my needs. Our water is 400+ppm and pH8+ depending on season and the water in town isn't much different but the RO I buy is almost always below 10ppm. The new manager at the Co-op takes better care of their system than the old one who would let it get over 200 sometimes.

I'd drop the UV and most supplements then a fresh batch of nutes at 500pp real nute level using equal parts of all 3 base ones then see if things improve with new growth.



Not sure what this means. Are you not filling the whole rez?

:peace:
Click to expand...
Thanks for the help Old Med.

Also, I want to note any pictures with the scrog net present is from the previous grow. The ones without are the current grow.


To answer your last uncertainty: I only mix nutrients up for 10 gallons of water even though the system holds 55 total.
On the nutes question: 3 part Flora Series + Dia Nec + Cal Mag + Flora Blend + Snow Storm + Terpinator + Hydrogaurd
 
T

Treesomewanted77

Well-Known Member
SEG said:
Thanks for the help Old Med.

Also, I want to note any pictures with the scrog net present is from the previous grow. The ones without are the current grow.


To answer your last uncertainty: I only mix nutrients up for 10 gallons of water even though the system holds 55 total.
On the nutes question: 3 part Flora Series + Dia Nec + Cal Mag + Flora Blend + Snow Storm + Terpinator + Hydrogaurd
Click to expand...
This is most likely some of the issue. Drop all those additives and just use the base nutrients.

also it looks like russet mites as stated from drop.
I would only use the 3 part and hydroguard or even run a sterile res.
You need to scope the plants for mites and be very thorough when you do. The plants look a lot like russet mite damage.
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
SEG said:
Thanks for the help Old Med.

Also, I want to note any pictures with the scrog net present is from the previous grow. The ones without are the current grow.


To answer your last uncertainty: I only mix nutrients up for 10 gallons of water even though the system holds 55 total.
On the nutes question: 3 part Flora Series + Dia Nec + Cal Mag + Flora Blend + Snow Storm + Terpinator + Hydrogaurd
Click to expand...
If your nute temps are below 70F you don't really need the hydroguard. I've seen a lot of DWC grows go sideways when people use it. I never did and the only time I got root rot was when I rooted clones in a mix that had real soil in it. For clones now I screen Promix HP to get a finer mix and root in that. Twice I got rot out of about 50 grows since '01 and both times I beat it using high dose 35% peroxide with little damage to the roots or plants.

The snow storm and Terpinator are for later flowering are they not? What the heck is Dia Nec? I looked up the Flora blend and tho for hydro they say it's ingredients list looks like something more for organics. I don't think you really need that either tho I doubt that's the problem.

I always found with the AN 3-part that 1ml/L of each gave me 300ppm using the pH Perfect ones but the 3-part Flora is the same strength as the old AN nutes which are both more concentrated so even less is needed to reach that mark.

Did some research a ways back and typed up my results about some nutes. no wonder it can be hard to switch from one brand to another or in the case of AN the same brand but different strengths.

"I've been using AN 3-part for 20 years. I bought gal jugs about 5 years ago and just now noticed that the N-P-K ratios have changed but I've been using it just like the older stuff that has the same ratios as the Jungle Juice and the GH 3-part. This may explain some of the problems I've seen in flowering especially when I switch to Lucas Formula feeding after the stretch. I have 1L bottles of the older pre-pH Perfect 3-part and dug them out to check.

Old AN, Jungle Juice and GH 3-part are; Grow - 2-1-6, Micro - 5-0-1, Bloom - 2-5-4

My 5 yo AN 3-part pH Perfect is Grow - 1-0-4, Micro - 2-0-0, Bloom - 1-3-4 (Has the Gorilla on the jugs)

Totally throws thing off to what I had become so accustomed to. I'm going to have to sit down and reformulate some of my mixes to be feeding each nute at the same ratios I was before. Much more diluted now too. With less than half the N as before it throws the Lucas feeding way off. No wonder the old leaves yellow out so fast and early.

I also have some REMO nutes from winning a 7 - 250ml bottle kit in a raffle at a hydro store I deal with and their ratios are different again.

G - 2-3-5
M - 3-0-1
B - 1-4-7

Flip a coin I guess or dust off the math books and nail it down. "

55USG is 208L. Say 210 for ease of use. Not sure if you're comfortable using metric measure but I'm fluent in both so whatever works for you. I've never followed the instructions on the bottles and generally feed as my plants tell me. Very low RH here in northern Alberta so lower levels are needed to prevent toxic salts buildup in hte leaves that shows around mid-flower with badly burned fan leaves that get all thick and crispy. Took me a few grows to figure that out.

Call it 200L then start with 0.5ml/L, let it circulate for a while and see what you get. Say it's 200ppm then you'd know that using twice as much you'd have 400ppm or if aiming for 300ppm you'd use 0.75ml/L. I didn't always use the same amount of each tho which is a 1-1-1 ratio of GMB. After good veg was established I'd switch to a 3-2-1 ratio then at the flip dose with 1-1-1 again and add some BB. After the stretch I'd switch to feeding Lucas Formula style, a 0-1-2 ratio to limit N. The Micro is a higher concentration than the others and has most of the N. I mixed 1ml/L of each in separate jugs and the ppm was way higher with the micro than the other 2.

When you don't change nutes you need to top up with water, let run for a while to get even mixing then check ppm (and pH for non-AN nutes) then add small amounts of each in the same ratio you are using to bump the ppm back up to target range. ±50ppm is fine. I always used concentrated sulphuric acid for pH down as my tubs would rise to about 6.2 in 3 days when I topped up with RO. 4 or 5 drops would bump it down to around 5.3. That up and down is good for making sure each nute spends some time at it's peak availability and my plants always loved it. Once I got the pH Perfect stuff I literally never checked the pH and they loved that too.

Looking at that nasty pic that @Drop That Sound posted and the state of your leaves I'd be scoping your plants with high magnification ASAP just in case. I've had some regular two-spotted spider mites and a few thrips but those russet mites are real bad f'ers from what I've seen and heard about them. I use Safer's End All concentrate and add 10ml canola or neem oil to each litre and it works great. 4 good sprays 4 days apart gets rid of either. A 500ml bottle of the concentrate costs the same as a 1L bottle ready-made but makes 10L so saves a ton.

:peace:
 
S

SEG

Member
Definitely have Russets. BLAH!

Never had a pest in all the years of growing.

I've read that wettable sulfur is my best option since I am in veg. Anything else out there that anyone recommends on getting control of these littel bast*rds?

I lost all of last year trying to correct a nute deficiency, before scraping what I had. I believe I know where I got them from, my fault, but still sucks. Anywho...

Throw at me any top secrete tricks or ideas?

I sprayed the first night with a 50/50 mix of isopropyl 91% and H2O. Then last night, I hit them with wettable sulfur. I'll do that every other day for 7 days. That will give me 4 treatments of the sulfur. Then I wanted to mix it up to make sure they don't build some kinda of immunity.

This would be where I would love advice: What should I follow the sulfur up with and what would be considered a suitable wait time in between the last WS spray and the next regimine?

I have azamax and neem oil on hand.
 
Onextremebuzz

Onextremebuzz

Well-Known Member
SEG said:
Definitely have Russets. BLAH!

Never had a pest in all the years of growing.

I've read that wettable sulfur is my best option since I am in veg. Anything else out there that anyone recommends on getting control of these littel bast*rds?

I lost all of last year trying to correct a nute deficiency, before scraping what I had. I believe I know where I got them from, my fault, but still sucks. Anywho...

Throw at me any top secrete tricks or ideas?

I sprayed the first night with a 50/50 mix of isopropyl 91% and H2O. Then last night, I hit them with wettable sulfur. I'll do that every other day for 7 days. That will give me 4 treatments of the sulfur. Then I wanted to mix it up to make sure they don't build some kinda of immunity.

This would be where I would love advice: What should I follow the sulfur up with and what would be considered a suitable wait time in between the last WS spray and the next regimine?

I have azamax and neem oil on hand.
Click to expand...
Isopropyl is poisonous to plants methanol how ever isn't at safe levels and can be metabolised by plants in safely mixed concentrations. So if your going to spray alcohol on your plants which I highly recommend you don't at least use methanol it will do less damage over time.
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
SEG said:
Definitely have Russets. BLAH!

Never had a pest in all the years of growing.

I've read that wettable sulfur is my best option since I am in veg. Anything else out there that anyone recommends on getting control of these littel bast*rds?

I lost all of last year trying to correct a nute deficiency, before scraping what I had. I believe I know where I got them from, my fault, but still sucks. Anywho...

Throw at me any top secrete tricks or ideas?

I sprayed the first night with a 50/50 mix of isopropyl 91% and H2O. Then last night, I hit them with wettable sulfur. I'll do that every other day for 7 days. That will give me 4 treatments of the sulfur. Then I wanted to mix it up to make sure they don't build some kinda of immunity.

This would be where I would love advice: What should I follow the sulfur up with and what would be considered a suitable wait time in between the last WS spray and the next regimine?

I have azamax and neem oil on hand.
Click to expand...
Insecticidal soap with 10ml/L neem or canola oil added will get rid of your mites without going full on chemical warfare on them. I use the Safer's End All concentrate and mix according to directions then just add canola oil to it. A 500ml bottle of the concentrate makes 10L of spray for the same price as 1L of the ready-made stuff. 3 sprays, 4 days apart will do the trick tho I usually hit them a 4th time just to be sure.

Just make sure you don't miss a spot or a few of the buggers will survive and a few weeks later in the middle of flowering they'll be back with a vengeance.

:peace:
 
Onextremebuzz

Onextremebuzz

Well-Known Member
OldMedUser said:
Now I'm curious. Pray tell how one is used as a fertilizer.

:peace:
Click to expand...
You can use methanol as a foiler spray on c3 plants it increases yeilds it also helps nutrient availability in water stressed c3 plants problem is regular fertilizers do the same thing. There were several studies done on it. Basically isopropyl is derived from propene and water which are fossil fuels and wood alcohol was made from burning wood or most industries just do it the new way of hydronating carbon monoxide. Methanol can be used to help stressed water logged c3 plants as well but applying to the roots is not a good idea foiler only as it affects the roots differently then the foilage. You can use higher concentrations on the plant as well then you could with isopropyl as the affects are not as toxic to the plant. But remember just because it's not toxic for the plant doesn't mean non toxic for you it but then again isopropyl is even more poisonous in lower concentrations so don't be scared just because I said that it evaporates just like any other solvent.
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Onextremebuzz said:
You can use methanol as a foiler spray on c3 plants it increases yeilds it also helps nutrient availability in water stressed c3 plants problem is regular fertilizers do the same thing. There were several studies done on it. Basically isopropyl is derived from propene and water which are fossil fuels and wood alcohol was made from burning wood or most industries just do it the new way of hydronating carbon monoxide. Methanol can be used to help stressed water logged c3 plants as well but applying to the roots is not a good idea foiler only as it affects the roots differently then the foilage. You can use higher concentrations on the plant as well then you could with isopropyl as the affects are not as toxic to the plant. But remember just because it's not toxic for the plant doesn't mean non toxic for you it but then again isopropyl is even more poisonous in lower concentrations so don't be scared just because I said that it evaporates just like any other solvent.
Click to expand...
Think I'm going to have to do a little research on that one.

If ISO is more toxic why is it used in body rubs and as an antiseptic instead of methanol? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I sprayed some flowering buds for mites a few months back with 50% ISO and didn't see much in the way of serious damage to the plants but sure slaughtered the mites. Must have dried up the eggs too as didn't see any after that.

On vegging plants the soap sprays with the oil added kills them fine.

:peace:
 
Onextremebuzz

Onextremebuzz

Well-Known Member
Jjgrow420 said:
You can spray up to around 70% but 50% is recommended to make sure there's no damage.
Click to expand...
That's seems a little high I'd go 1 isy to 8 parts water. I would also test on a small portion to see the plants reaction to the application wait a few days and then decide to continue or discontinue use. I wouldn't even use 25 percent let alone 70.
 
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