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- Thread starter Theophagy
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That kinda depends on why you're moving away from OSF.
Is it due to cost considerations? Namely the steep shipping charges involved getting OSF ? OR, is it due to the lack of Mg in OSF and the resulting frequent Mg deficiencys?
That appears to be Ag lime (calcitic), a functional equivalent of OSF, both being mostly pure calcium carbonate with just a trace of Mg (0.7% on the ingredient list pictured).
If it's due to the lack of Mg, Dolomite lime is what you want having ~12% Mg as part if it's makeup. The 'pulverized' (powdered), works better in mixes IME, but the pellets aren't the end of the world. Both versions are the exact same price in my area ($4.50/40lb bag).
Hope that answers your question.
Wet
Theophagy
Well-Known Member
Thanks Wetdog, that was exactly what I needed to know. I'm moving away from the OSF due to shipping cost, trying to get away from shipping all the heavy stuff. Any harm in using a little of both the pellet and powdered lime, just cover the Mg? I also use gypsum and greensand.
No harm at all in using both as long as the total is 1cup/cf.
I have and use both, using the powdered dolomite in fresh mixes (it coats everything much better), and the pelletized Ag lime in reamends and in my soil gardens and lawn. Our soil has plenty of native Mg, so more isn't really needed. But in container mixes the lack of Mg in the Ag lime was a real pain and stopped after the first season.
Greensand has been a part of my mix from the beginning. In fact, I've totally stopped using rock dust (granite meal in my case), and only use a blend of greensand and azomite for my mineral needs now. 1/2 - 1cup of each/cf.
I also use gypsum, 1/2cup/cf in making a mix and usually a couple of light top dresses during the season. Just remember, it has little effect on soil pH being a sulfate form of calcium and not the carbonate form needed for buffering. A great source of Ca and the sulfur does wonders for flavor.
Yeah, it amazes me that people will spend big $$ on shipping OSF when Ag lime is available locally, cheaper and dolomite cheaper still.
Wet
Miyagismokes
Well-Known Member
Alzheimer's concerns?
Not really, especially not after doing a little digging on my own and ignoring what "people said". I mean, aluminum is a concern, but not so much what's in azomite (all rock dusts contain Aluminum), compared to what we add all on our own.
Do you use deodorant? The active ingredient in Mitchum is, Aluminum Zirconium Tetrachlorohydrex Gly 20%, which we smear daily right into a dense cluster of blood vessels and nerves. This was the only label I had handy, but most are similar.
Do you do any cooking in aluminum pots and pans? Especially high acid stuff like tomato sauce or warming up the Ragu? Aluminum cans?
You get the idea. Aluminum is the 3rd most common element after oxygen and silica and comprises ~8% of the earth's crust. Pretty much impossible to avoid, but, in soil/mixes you CAN avoid conditions that cause it to release.
Mainly, what will cause it to release in soil is very low pH, like 4.5 and lower and/or over applications of humic/fulvic acids. The low pH is easy since not much grows in soil that acidic. The humic/fulvic is another story since so little is needed (the amount contained in vermicompost is plenty), but the inexperienced just love the "more is better" approach. Combine that with really pure, concentrated stuff like from BioAg and you have problems. The BioAg stuff works almost TOO well and they used to have a caution about over application. Bet they still do. I quit using it years ago and now rely solely on the vermicompost for my HA/FA.
Wet
Miyagismokes
Well-Known Member
The pots and pans are my concern, personally. Elemental aluminum (though technically alloyed and passivated) is hilariously unnatural and quite reactive....
Alumina, on the other hand, is completely not a worry.
Bit to be fair, cans have a plastic coating on the inside, so your beer never actually touches aluminum until it's open. Kegs too.
LinguaPeel
Well-Known Member
Using dolomite will tighten the soil, reducing air in the soil and inducing anaerobic alcohol fermentation or even formaldehyde preservation of organic matter rather than aerobic decomposition.
And you have experience of this occuring in container mixes? IDK, after more than a decade of using dolo in my mix I've yet to have that happen.
Or, are you going off that soil study done in the UP in Mg rich soils that started all this brouhaha? Two different scenarios that don't relate.
Wet
Theophagy
Well-Known Member
Is this where the dolomite lime, Ca and Mg ratio being unbalanced with cause your soil to harden, started? If it is this is why I stopped using lime.
Miyagismokes
Well-Known Member
I admit, I use dolomitic limestone, and I have some hard dirt right now. BUT-- I don't think it's the limestone, I haven't cut any aeration into it for two years.
That being said, I sometimes have excess magnesium issues unrelated to soil density.
Theophagy
Well-Known Member
Do you ever need to add extra sulfur in your mix? I found some soil acidifier for hydrangeas that is just sulfur, but was afraid of lowering my Ph to much.
Theophagy
Well-Known Member
I'm with you there...I have had some hard soil at times, but I'm starting to think I don't use enough aeration in my mixes.
dubekoms
Well-Known Member
Gypsum will do the trick.
Miyagismokes
Well-Known Member
Does wettable sulfur runoff count?
Pretty much, yes and a good example of why many soil studies have so little relevance to the container mixes we construct. But many still try and jam that round peg into that still square hole.
That study had a great deal of relevance to farmers who's native soil is rich in Mg (mainly the upper mid west), but little relevance to container mixes that contain next to zero Mg until it is actually added to that mix. I mean, creating a problem out of a situation that does not exist? C'mon
Wet
No, my mix tends to acidic in the first place being peat based so elemental sulfur is never really considered. The sulfur in the gypsum is more than enough, or at least all that's going to get added. LOL My native soil is acidic also and acid loving plants grow well here with no help.
Wet
I think a lack of aeration is the real root of many, MANY problems experienced by growers and frequently misdiagnosed as other causes, mainly a deficiency of one thing or another.
The 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 soil mix ratio is just flat bad and usually way too dense. My own mix is more like 40% - 40% - 20% to start and usually ends up closer to 50% aeration.
Organic mixes, especially using seed meals tend to get denser with time from the extra organic material from the meals used as amendments. Adding more aeration with reamends is pretty essential.
Wet
