jrh72582
Well-Known Member
I, as a liberal, second this notion.
How To Spot A Liberal....
- Thread starter CrackerJax
- Start date
MexicanWarlord420
Active Member
who says we're for any of those gun control policies. Wouldn't you be offended if I stereotyped you as some kind of evangelical redneck mongoloid?Well this is your chance - liberals - rather than argue what you're not for, please explain why you are for the failed policies of "gun control"? And if you think your gun control laws have worked, please explain that too! I'm all ears
doobnVA
Well-Known Member
Well this is your chance - liberals - rather than argue what you're not for, please explain why you are for the failed policies of "gun control"? And if you think your gun control laws have worked, please explain that too! I'm all ears
Obviously not ALL ears, or you'd have seen several "liberals" saying already that they AREN'T FOR gun control.
You only hear what you want, and you completely disregard the rest.
Typical of a person who touts stereotypes as if they were gospel.
Please re-read your last post, and see if you can comprehend how loaded the question is. "Hey liberals, since you've said you aren't all for gun control and I completely ignored you, tell me now why you're for gun control! I swear I'll listen this time!"
doobnVA
Well-Known Member
How do you spot a conservative?
They bring their bible to the politcal rally at the NASCAR track.
londonfog
Well-Known Member
Now that one is true
Green Cross
Well-Known Member
Gun Control is a liberal issue. It's hard to have a decent debate here if you don't even know what policies liberals are advancing lol
Here a good piece on gun control:
Learning from Other Cultuers: The Benefits of Diversity
"Liberal political correctness holds that we should learn from "diversity" --from the wisdom of other lands-cultures. Though the politically correct crowd would be horrified to think it, the place from which to learn about dealing with terrorism is Israel whose people have triumphed over terrorism for 50+ years.
The NEW YORK TIMES for Ap. 23, 1979 reported a raid on Israel by terrorists based in Lebanon: The terrorists (whom the TIMES, which is oh-so-neutral about Palestinian terrorism, describes as "guerrillas") landed at Nahariya, a community in northern Israel, at about 2 A.M., "from a motor-powered rubber boat. They made their way to an apartment building near the seashore," exploding grenades and shooting into the apartments. "One guerrilla entered an apartment, but was killed by a resident. The others burst into the home of Dan Haran, 28 years old...."
The Israeli who killed the Palestinian entering his apartment was identified "as Charles Shapiro, 34," a recent immigrant from South Africa. In an interview with Israeli radio, Mr. Shapiro said: 'They were shooting through the doors to get them opened, and I got out of bed [with] my little revolver, a .22 caliber magnum. I got out of the line of fire, and when one of the terrorists kicked in my door and entered, I came out of hiding and shot him in the chest. He was still alive and called out to his friends and he still had the automatic rifle in one hand. So I shot him in the head.'
"Mr. Shapiro said he then looked out his doorway and saw the other guerrillas entering Mr. Haran's apartment. 'He was pleading with the terrorists to take him hostage and leave his family alone. That's when they killed the [first] little girl.'" To persuade him to come with them bringing his other daughter, "the Palestinians shot Mr. Haran's 2 year-old daughter to death.. The guerrillas then withdrew from the building, taking Mr. Haran and another of his daughters, Einat, age 4, with them as hostages. Two of the guerrillas dragged the father and daughter with them toward the beach, but saw that their boat had been destroyed by Israeli security forces... The[y] then killed Mr. Haran and his daughter, and held a running gun battle with soldiers and policemen until they were wounded and captured."
Now what lesson do we learn from this? The stark truth is that armed victims like Charles Shapiro may live until help arrives. If you are unarmed like Dan Haran you can only beg the terrorists to take your life and not kill your children.
I relate this in detail because it perfectly illustrates the error of relying on government to provide the protection necessary to your family's survival. Not only does government almost always arrive too late to save victims of truly dangerous attackers; the arrival of government immediately caused the deaths of Haran and his 4 year old. (Doubtless the Palestinians would have killed them anyway within the next few minutes.)
Of course, being armed only gives you a chance; it cannot provide perfect protection. Nor do all Israelis choose to be armed. Some weeks before this was written (in August, 2002) Palestinians broke into an Israeli settlement, knocked an unarmed mother to the ground and forced her to watch while they killed her baby and two older children. Then they killed her before being themselves routed by belatedly arriving armed civilians.
This is, incidentally, a matter of deliberate policy, not just of idiosyncratic sadism. The theory is that by killing children, especially in front of their parents, Palestinians maximize the chance of terrorizing the Jews. Also such attacks initially seemed a low-risk strategy: Small children can't shoot back. So when Arafat's and other Palestinian terror groups started out over thirty years ago their first targets were schools and school buses.
But Israel's response has been that at least some teachers in each school are armed. Likewise, bus drivers are issued guns and-or encouraged to carry their private firearms, and at least one armed teacher or parent must ride along on every school field trip. By arming teachers to stave off terror attackers until security forces (who patrol near schools) arrive Israel has deterred Palestinian school attacks for the last 30 years.
It works even on today's suicide terrorists. While willing to die, they still avoid schools lest they be shot down before they can kill the children. It is easier to kill in places and circumstances where strangers are allowed entrance rather than barred, as illustrated by a May 31, 2002 incident reported by the Israeli news service Arutz Sheva: "At about 8:30 AM, [a Palestinian terrorist entered the town of Shavei Shomron, opened] fire and threw at least one grenade at the kindergarten before setting off on a shooting spree through the town. He opened fire at several residents and homes before David Elbaz, owner of the local mini-market, gave chase and killed him with gunshots. In addition to several grenades and the [rifle] the terrorist carried on him, security sweeps revealed several explosive devices that he had intended to detonate during the thwarted attack."
Note that he did NOT try to enter the school. That would have required that he successfully shoot it out with school personnel in order to get into a position to set off his bombs. (A few days before, a suicide terrorist was killed by a teacher before he could harm anyone.)
Licensing: To Legally Have a Gun Means You Can Carry
Theoretically all gun ownership in Israel requires having a permit which is issued to any responsible, law abiding adult who can show some kind of need. Need is presumed if you spend time in areas with or near Arab populations. Indeed, the required showing of need is often minimal, e.g., a 65 year old who received a license when living in an area that was dangerous in 1960 and either just kept his handgun long after expiration of his license or had it renewed decade after decade, though the area is no longer dangerous and/or he no longer lives there.
"Thank God I had my pistol with me," William Hazan said after a February 22, 2002 incident at the Seafood Market disco in Tel Aviv. When a Palestinian terrorist began firing an AK-47 randomly into the nightclub, Hazan, his wife, and some friends who were eating together ducked under the table. Hazan drew the pistol he had been carrying for years, crawled under tables to the door, and killed the terrorist. The dead terrorist, who had already killed three and wounded 25+ others, had apparently intended his finale to be detonating explosives strapped to his body.
If you legally have a gun, either because of having a permit or having been issued a gun (discussed below), "you are allowed to carry it on your person (concealed or unconcealed). The police even recommend you carry it because then the gun is protected from thieves or children. The [intended] result is that in any big crowd of citizens, there are some people with their personal handguns on them (usually concealed)." (Quoting my friend, Abraham Tennenbaum, an Israeli criminologist and former police official.)
Since the 1980s, applicants have been required to show pistol handling proficiency and marksmanship. The need for this has been doubted since military service is universal for Jews, excepting only religious objectors. Some see the requalification requirement as just a way of excluding Arabs who cannot afford a gun and the constant shooting and training required to be able to requalify every other year. Israeli officials deny this, pointing out that training with an Uzi or automatic rifle does not assure you can effectively use a handgun in an emergency.
About 10 percent of Jewish adults in Israel now have permits to own guns. I take that figure (and many of the Israel incidents I describe) from a terrific new book by American economist John Lott, THE BIAS AGAINST GUNS (Regnery, 2003). He calculates the 10% figure from the fact that "there are currently about 6.5 million people living in Israel. Of those, 81 percent are Jews and 63 percent are over 20 years of age; at the same time Israel had 340,000 handgun permit holders, though they were expecting to be issuing 40,000 more permits in response to the increased level of recent demand. (If it seems odd that only 10% of Israelis have permits, the reasons are simple: as discussed below, vast numbers of firearms have been issued by the government without requiring a permit.)
The Licensed Guns of Israel
There is apparently little regulation of what kind of handgun licensees have. If you like the idea of using a .22 magnum when you may be taking on a terrorist with an AK-47, you are free to carry a .22 magnum. (On the one hand, no handgun is optimum for such a situation; on the other, even Jeff Cooper agrees that a .22 you shoot regularly and well is a better choice for combat than a .45 you miss a barn with.)
Because many Israelis were educated in the U.S. some licensees favor revolvers or .45 ACPs. A recent Israeli news article claims such people tend to think revolvers more reliable. This probably means not that many Israelis have revolvers, but that virtually all those who do have American experience.
The most popular handguns are 9mm. semiautos. Because Israeli history stretches back to the late 1940s, the 9mms. civilians own probably include Lugers, Walther P-38s, Browning Hi-Powers, Radoms and even Roth-Steyrs, Astra 600s and 900s and Mauser parabellums. But among younger licensees more modern 9mms. prevail; the same article says "Glock, Sig-Sauer, Browning, and Smith & Wesson semiautomatics are favored for their high-capacity magazines and rugged, low-maintenance design." Probably the most common handguns are those 9mms. that were or are standard in Israeli service: the Jericho (an Israeli-developed handgun), Beretta Brigadier and Beretta Model 92s.
Indicative of the benefits of Israel's policy that there be armed people in all public places is the following from a February 22, 2002 Israeli radio news broadcast: "An alert customer [just] shot dead a terrorist who tried to set off an explosive device in a supermarket [in Efrat, a town in a block of Jewish communities] south of Bethlehem." The JERUSALEM POST's report mentioned that the terrorist had some moments earlier set off another small bomb in a different part of the store, "leaving one customer lightly wounded" and scattering nails (the intended shrapnel content of the bomb) over the floor. But when he moved to another area in the store, "Further tragedy was averted when a woman shopping in the packed supermarket saw the terrorist trying to set off a second explosion and shot him twice in the head from close range."
It turned out that in a belt around his waste he was carrying much more powerful explosives. A police source speculated the terrorist intended to kill ordinary victims in the supermarket with two small bombs so as to lure police to the scene. He would then have pretended to surrender and blown the explosive belt up when surrounded by police.
Given the saving of his officers' lives in this incident alone it is little wonder that Police Inspector-General Shlomo Aharonisky reaffirms the value of having armed civilians in all public places: "there's no question that weapons in the hands of the public have prevented acts of terror or stopped them while they were in progress. Chance passers-by have killed terrorists in the midst of gun attacks."
Guns, guns - everywhere!
In the current crisis, Israel is expanding its guns-everywhere policy. A mayor who heads a nationwide organization of municipal governments asks all his own city officials to carry firearms while on the job and calls on other mayors to do likewise. Bus drivers are encouraged to carry guns, whether their own or issue handguns. So, in areas with Arab populations, are mailmen for whom, "handguns are mandatory." (It is unclear from the news report I am quoting whether this means mailmen are required to carry or just that they all think guns "mandatory" for their safety.)
In light of early 2002's constant terror incidents, Israels rabbis agreed to allow some armed worshippers "in every synagogue" during the Passover holidays. Synagogues are so obviously potential targets of terror attacks, that the normal prohibition on Orthodox Jews even touching guns on holidays and during the Sabbath is being relaxed.
Businesses are required to have armed personnel if they have more than 5,000 square feet of floor space. The same is required for all hotels, movies and other locations that draw large crowds. For larger businesses, armed personnel must be posted at or outside the door. The May 24, 2002 NEW YORK POST reported that a disco employee's alertness had "saved hundreds of Tel Aviv partygoers from death at the hands of a homicide bomber last night." Around midnight the employee standing outside the disco midnight saw a bomber's car which he "'suspected because it came in at such a high speed. I was afraid he wanted to run over the people lining up at the discotheque. And there were about 200 people inside. 'So I pulled out my pistol and I opened fire. And the moment I shot, the car exploded.'"
Israel Distributes Innumerable Handguns
Besides permit-holders, many Israelis possess guns they did not choose. Israel is a socialist country and socialism is supposed to provide everyone their basic necessities. Israel sees guns as a basic necessity for people beset by terrorists. So from the late 1940s on weapons have been distributed to remote settlements and kibbutzim (collective farming communities). Indeed, in the 1948 War of Independence such outposts sometimes became the sites of minor or even major battles. Knowing the fate that awaited them if they were "captured," men (and especially women) of these remote settlements would fight to the death. Operating as "forts" which the attacking armies felt had to be reduced rather than left in their rear, these outposts held up advances until they were either relieved by Israeli forces or overrun and their inhabitants killed.
Typical of post-1948 incidents is a 1974 N.Y. TIMES article describing an attack by four terrorists who "murder[ed] three women before being killed themselves in a gun fight with the men of the kibbutz." At present Israel has distributed over 340,000 firearms to civilians who prefer not to undergo the inconvenience and expense of obtaining permits and buying their own personal guns.
Prof. Tennenbaum described to me some other situations in which Israel issues arms: "Whenever a school project involves a field trip to the countryside, they are required to have companions with firearms. These will usually be parents and/or teachers. In order to obtain enough firearms, one of the parents or teachers will go to the local police station and be assigned some firearms, which s/he will return after the trip."
Also "The Israeli police operate a civilian volunteer body called the 'Civil Guards.' One of its functions is to provide voluntary armed civilian patrols during the night in some neighborhoods. The patrollers are equipped with firearms, which are issued at the beginning of, and are returned at the end of, the patrol. Many of the volunteers are high school students (ages 16-1
. After a short period of training, they carry firearms like any other volunteer."And "Another example is the way the police handle cases of criminal kidnapping, a phenomenon which is very rare, but which does occur. If a person is missing, volunteer teams are issued arms and go out to search the forests and caves, while the media call on people to be aware of the situation and try to locate the missing person."
These examples involve only temporary issuance. In addition, almost all able-bodied military-age male Israelis are "recalled into the army for reserve service approximately 30 to 45 days each year. Most of them get firearms which they do not just possess while in service and on active reserve duty. Reservists, like all soldiers are allowed (and those serving in dangerous areas are required) to take their firearm home during each leave period or between stints of reserve duty. The result is that in any major crowd (bus stations, trains, main streets), there are reservists or soldiers armed on the way to or from home."
An April 7, 1994 A.P. release reported: "JERUSALEM -- A Palestinian opened fire with a submachine gun at a bus stop near the port of Ashdod today, killing one Israeli and wounding four before being shot to death by bystanders, officials said. *** National police spokesman Eric Bar-Chen said today's attacker, who was armed with an Uzi submachine gun, was shot and killed by a civilian and a soldier who were at the bus stop and hitchhiking post used by soldiers. Ashdod is 15 miles south of Tel Aviv and 15 miles north of the Gaza Strip. Bar-Chen identified the gunman as a Palestinian from the Shati refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. Six ammunition clips and a knife were found on his body, he added."
What kinds of firearms does Israel issue?
Obviously, ordinary reservists get whatever long guns Israel is currently using. Fifty-plus years ago during its desperate War of Independence Israel used any arms it could obtain, preferring British Enfield .303s and the WWII version of Germany's 7.92mm. Mauser '98, both being bolt actions. Then in the mid-1950s Israel adopted the Uzi submachinegun in 9mm. parabellum and the FN Belgian FAL in .308 NATO. Subsequently, Israel developed its own Galil rifle in .223; and it currently also uses the M-16.
The handguns Israel distributes to civilians depend on what happens to be in its armories. Israel picked up many guns left by British soldiers when they left in 1948. Civilians issued handguns in that era got a miscellany including the then British standard .38 S&W (NOT .38 special) Enfield revolvers and the older Webley .455s, as well as military surplus European Browning Hi-Powers, Walther P-38s, Lugers, Radoms and even .32 and .380 Brownings, Walthers, Sauers, CZs, etc.
Having astounded the world by defeating the joint attack of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc. Israel captured from those nations further Webley and Enfield revolvers and Hi-Power semi-autos. Somewhere it bought a quantity of S&W M&Ps (Model 10) which it converted to 9mm. using a half-moon clip -- doubtless inspired by the .45 ACP Colt and S&W M-1917 revolvers. Israel early standardized the Beretta Brigadier 9mm. So did Egypt, whereby Israeli armories are probably still replete with Brigadiers captured in three subsequent wars with Egypt. There are probably also some "Togagypts", a Hungarian-built 9mm version of the Russian TT 1933 which Egypt acquired in its pro-Soviet Nasser period. Many of these handguns were retired to armories to join the miscellany of earlier handguns, for distribution to civilians.
Conclusion
I'll never forget the conversation I had 25+ years ago with an Israeli visiting the U.S. When he learned I am a criminologist who studies gun violence he astounded me by asking why Americans are so set on owning guns. I was about to launch into a pro-gun tirade when he floored me again by continuing, "if you have to go some place dangerous, why don't you just go to an armory and draw out an Uzi?"
Though I tried to explain it, he just could not grasp the concept that a government that is supposedly rational would not arm good citizens who are endangered, but would instead try to take guns away from them. I guess his inability to understand this point reflects better on his society than my understanding of it does on ours."
NewGrowth
Well-Known Member
Attachments
A 30-06 is a fine cartridge to fire, accurate, powerful and fairly easy to obtain. IMO the only better out there is the .308 winchester ( AKA 7.62 MM x 51MM) accurate, powerful and there is plenty of ammo to go around since 1/2 the world uses it.
NewGrowth
Well-Known Member
A lot of people have told me the .308 is a great gun
Green Cross
Well-Known Member
Great deer rifle, but be careful...If you're ever busted they will take your guns. And If you're married and your wife gets crazy, and calls the cops you will have your guns confiscated, whatever the circumstances. Under some of the newer laws, you are presumed guilty....
londonfog
Well-Known Member
Damn dude you telling on yourself...lol....Maybe she called the cops because you went crazy after Obama won..ROFL...
jrh72582
Well-Known Member
Some of the newer laws where? In my state, you can have most any gun you want, including a .308. You can't be busted for owning legal guns.
Green Cross
Well-Known Member
Which parties favor gun control?
Republican party has generally been the party that the NRA, National Rifle Association, has tended to favor. And the National Rifle Association has supported Republican candidates far more than it's supported Democratic candidates. The Republican party tends to dislike gun control. Where as the Democratic party tends to be much more in favor of gun control, with restrictions on guns. Areas that are strong Democratic areas, like Washington, DC, are the areas where you're more likely to find very strict restrictions on the use and possession of hand guns. In Washington, DC, if you own a gun, it has to be disassembled if you move it from one room of your own house to another room of your own house. So, it's pretty much a way to get around the 2nd Amendment and still restrict the use of ownership to a great degree. Now, because America is such a gun culture, so to speak, quote unquote, the Democrats have a hard issue with this. And so you see a lot of Democratic candidates who tend to buck the gun control wing of their party. John Kerry said he is a hunter. Howard Dean kind of promoted his pro-gun stance. So, the Democratic party is less, is more wavering on this issue than the Republican party is. And that's just because America's had a long history of being a gun culture."
FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban
Obama was being misleading when he denied that his handwriting had been on a document endorsing a state ban on the sale and possession of handguns in Illinois. Obama responded, "No, my writing wasn't on that particular questionnaire. As I said, I have never favored an all-out ban on handguns."
Read more here. It's hard to tell what he thinks.
http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/Barack_Obama_Gun_Control.htm
Obama Supporters will delete what they are afraid of. Watch the above post be deleted. They are afraid to tell the truth. They only want to win. Don't trust liers and censors. Yes, never trust a "lier". I only trust people who stand. I am not sure how I should feel about sitters.
NewGrowth
Well-Known Member
Yeah in CO you can actually get a concealed carry permit for like $75 and three classes you can legally carry a concealed weapon in public. We the people are armed and will not give up our weapons easily. Too bad Mr Heston passed away
doobnVA
Well-Known Member
Seems to me gun control must be a republican and libertarian issue, since more of them own guns than do the "liberals".
Here's an interesting fact:
The percentage of Americans who consider "gun control" as an important issue has declined from 3% to 1%.
So, it would seem that it's not really anyone's issue.
Here's an interesting fact:
The percentage of Americans who consider "gun control" as an important issue has declined from 3% to 1%.
So, it would seem that it's not really anyone's issue.
londonfog
Well-Known Member
nope not an issue...not even on the table....zzzzzzzzz
MexicanWarlord420
Active Member
lol'd at your tshirt, yummy yummy murder