Gdub51
Well-Known Member
OK, I'll study it and report back.
Cal/Mag. deficient or lock out?
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- cal/mag lock out or what
hotrodharley
Well-Known Member
True dat. My only 1 was a loner of that strain. I probably see it everywhere now. Screwed it up for yield.
TBH think your plant looks pretty good.
Nice and green.
I'd be tempted to mulch with peat or something similar.
Or some green organic material if it stays outside.
If it's recently been fed, don't worry about green matter.
There's always sulphur as well. But you have to be careful in how much you supplement. Always supplement less than stated.
I'm not sure you really have a problem TBH.
Your plant is very happy and green.
It's a large plant too.
Imo it's completely normal to see a bottom leaf of two like that.
It's when there are many, and it's spreading, thats a problem.
Otherwise Imo it's just the plant photosynthesizing and doing it's thing.
I wouldn't get carried away myself. It's a lovely looking plant to me.
Nice and green.
I'd be tempted to mulch with peat or something similar.
Or some green organic material if it stays outside.
If it's recently been fed, don't worry about green matter.
There's always sulphur as well. But you have to be careful in how much you supplement. Always supplement less than stated.
I'm not sure you really have a problem TBH.
Your plant is very happy and green.
It's a large plant too.
Imo it's completely normal to see a bottom leaf of two like that.
It's when there are many, and it's spreading, thats a problem.
Otherwise Imo it's just the plant photosynthesizing and doing it's thing.
I wouldn't get carried away myself. It's a lovely looking plant to me.
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Gdub51
Well-Known Member
OK, I've spent the last two days reading about the ups and downs (pardon the pun) of the various acids that are used to stabilize the PH of water for agriculture. EVERY grower has an opinion, none Ive read have the education to make any kind of empirical scientific determination to guide us. SO please just read; /ag.umass.edu/greenhouse-floriculture/fact-sheets/adjusting-alkalinity-with-acids A paper from the University of Massachusets Agriculture Department. Bottom line: Use what you like, it all works, as long as it is used properly and safely. So as far as price is concerned versus concentration it seems automotive battery acid is the best bet as long as you are safe with it (use rubber gloves),
SORRY General Hydroponics and the rest that simply repackage commonly available acids (with magical buffers that are not found in any of the scientific papers I have read). The truth is just about any old acid will work if used properly. AND THIS SHOULD BE A SEPERATE THREAD AND I WILL START IT: WHY IS 90% THE INFO ON THE WEB FOR HYDROPONIC GROWERS!!! Yes unpasteurized vinegar may start a "mother" slime in your tank, why do I care!!! Please lets start separating info for outdoor vs. hydro growers by putting a O or H letter after your moniker on the site so we all can skip to the info that pertains to us!
SORRY General Hydroponics and the rest that simply repackage commonly available acids (with magical buffers that are not found in any of the scientific papers I have read). The truth is just about any old acid will work if used properly. AND THIS SHOULD BE A SEPERATE THREAD AND I WILL START IT: WHY IS 90% THE INFO ON THE WEB FOR HYDROPONIC GROWERS!!! Yes unpasteurized vinegar may start a "mother" slime in your tank, why do I care!!! Please lets start separating info for outdoor vs. hydro growers by putting a O or H letter after your moniker on the site so we all can skip to the info that pertains to us!
Gdub51
Well-Known Member
YO Wet and HotRod; concerning using vinegar for adjusting PH in soil for outdoor use. The only negative I have found is from hydroponic growers experiencing a "mother" growth ( a harmless mass that can clog up the system and goo up the roots. If pasteurized versions had been used this would not happen. And this from Robert Pavless's book "Garden Myths" "Vinegar is about 5% acetic acid, the rest being water. Pickling vinegar is about 7% acetic acid, but even this is not strong enough to kill weeds. A higher concentration of acetic acid will kill some plants, but you need to use at least 20% acetic acid."When vinegar reaches soil level it is quickly neutralized so that it is no longer acidic. The acetic acid in vinegar is converted to harmless acetate salts which have little effect on the weed."
Perhaps one should be aware of the build up of acetate salts, and "flush" these out once and a while. Yet I have found it takes A LOT of white distilled vinegar (5% acetic acid) ((takes 20% acetic acid to kill plants and that only works if poured full strength on the leaves it will kill the leaves and thereby kill the plant)) to balance my water. About 1/4 cup per gallon! The other statement here open to further scrutiny is the vinegar being neutralized when it reaches soil level. Perhaps some others don't neutralize?? I'm looking into this. Your thoughts? OH and my plant trouble this thread was started for is spreading!!! And I don't know what to do!
Gdub51
Well-Known Member
YO TIM: I think your looking at my "twisted sisters" trained pair. Yes they are lovely. I'm thinking of doing 3 pots this way next year. They are untopped. simply tied down in EARLY veg into a spiral form. This way the largest colas are coming from branches closest to the base of the plant, as well as the apex. The number of colas is close to the untouched plants but they are fuller, denser and richer in trichomes. Plus, the shape along with being tied in place protects them from our "Santa Ana" winds which are strong enough to break branches especially at late flower. Happy growing!TBH think your plant looks pretty good.
Nice and green.
I'd be tempted to mulch with peat or something similar.
Or some green organic material if it stays outside.
If it's recently been fed, don't worry about green matter.
There's always sulphur as well. But you have to be careful in how much you supplement. Always supplement less than stated.
I'm not sure you really have a problem TBH.
Your plant is very happy and green.
It's a large plant too.
Imo it's completely normal to see a bottom leaf of two like that.
It's when there are many, and it's spreading, thats a problem.
Otherwise Imo it's just the plant photosynthesizing and doing it's thing.
I wouldn't get carried away myself. It's a lovely looking plant to me.
AnimalMother1974
Active Member
Fuck....
AnimalMother1974
Active Member
Ive been using Heinz white vinegar to drop my tap water to 6.3, 1.5 tbsp per gallon.... but i dont know am I causing more damage or not
Gdub51
Well-Known Member
I just found vinegar to be too unstable and unpredictable. I had to use so much that the cost of PH down came back into focus. Now restocked with it, I find I need only one to two grams per gallon to bring my local water to between 5 and 6. Doesn't seem to matter what PH I feed with, the soil returns to Alkaline as soon as it dries. Plants seem to like the rollercoaster so I stay the course. This years disease (for which I will not name for fear of reprisal) seems to be at bay and now the potential harvest looks like a substantial improvement over last year. There should be a "weed for the homeless" I could donate some of the excess to. "Indica for the Indigent??"
Gdub51
Well-Known Member
YO AM1, are you always using that same amount?? I have found I have to adjust each pale full with a different amount of PH adjuster as each will read out a slightly different amount. Especially when adding supplements. If you are always using the same amount based on an earlier test I think you are unknowingly letting your PH drift considerably without your knowledge... I'm not criticizing you I'm just trying to help.
AnimalMother1974
Active Member
I used to never adjust the ph of my tap water. I just let it sit in the sun for 24 hours open top before using it. But then I started to get an iron deficiency and lil bit of manganese too. It seemed to be from the ph being to high. So I tried adding vinegar to all the water/fertilizer blends until it tested about 6.3 or so, so that the iron could become available again. It seemed to be helping for about a month, then nitrogen and magnesium problems got worse and harder to control. vinegar makes soil unstable yeah it seems that way. My tap water is 7-8ph
Beachwalker
Well-Known Member
I've found vinegar doesn't hold the adjustment as long as some of the more commercial products I've tried
AnimalMother1974
Active Member
Ever try citric acid?
Beachwalker
Well-Known Member
No I haven't I use the commercial products but have used vinegar a few times in a pinch but don't like the fact that vinegar can affect the soil like that I never thought of that I've heard it's not great for hydro but I never thought of it affecting soil thanks for the heads up
polishpollack
Well-Known Member
Another pH game I see.
Did you all not read the third post? FFOF mix with compost and something else, and also being fed on top of it. pH is too low with all that stuff. This plant has been poisoned and there's no recovery I don't think as it's too late. You don't need to pH down water. You don't do that for any other plant and you don't do it for this one either.
Did you all not read the third post? FFOF mix with compost and something else, and also being fed on top of it. pH is too low with all that stuff. This plant has been poisoned and there's no recovery I don't think as it's too late. You don't need to pH down water. You don't do that for any other plant and you don't do it for this one either.
My input is this, definitely has nothing to do with a phosphorus deficiency, or calcium! In my opinion, the plants don't seem to be having an issue, they seem fine from the distant pics posted. The random yellowing like that can happen, but without a pattern, it doesn't seem to be a nutrient issue. The first pic posted seems it may have been a magnesium issue at one point, but a closeup of the plants would be needed to see it better. Either way, the new pics don't show that kind of damage. On to ph, i think you are watering them far too low! Just because your medium says its at 7, doesn't mean you suddenly start dumping in water close to 5 ph to bring it down! Look at how nice the plants look overall..if this was a ph issue, then it would affect 1 or more elements completely, thus affecting the next one like a domino effect and the plants wouldn't be so green and healthy looking! Just continue to water with a ph around 6.2, as the water dries in the medium, it will swing upwards anyways. As for vinegar to lower ph, i have used it exclusively for 2 years and no issues at all! The vinegar won't hold the ph down for very long, but it doesn't have to, i water immediately and then the medium will take care of it from there. Citric acid isn't as popular because it's more expensive than vinegar, and contains sugars that can possibly attract pests, namely outdoors.
Just 1 question that noone asked, you mentioned twice that you fed it with cal/mag then flushed 2 days later??? What's the point to feed more if you flush it out before the plant can use it? I didn't get that part at all! In any case, good luck, plants look good, becareful with the low [<5.8] waterings.
Just 1 question that noone asked, you mentioned twice that you fed it with cal/mag then flushed 2 days later??? What's the point to feed more if you flush it out before the plant can use it? I didn't get that part at all! In any case, good luck, plants look good, becareful with the low [<5.8] waterings.
polishpollack
Well-Known Member
So Blitz, you think the plant is fine despite that first photo where it looks like it's dying. You also say this is a phosphorus/calcium/magnesium problem. That doesn't make sense.
What does "watering them too low" mean?
What does "watering them too low" mean?
Sorry, had this post mixed up with another when initially replied. The first photo was a pic of 1 leaf, without knowing where that leaf came from on the plant or seeing other pics of the whole plant, it's hard to tell what it may be. Then he posted 2 other distant pics of the whole plant that showed some random yellowing on both, but not consistent with a calcium deficiency...from what's visible in the 2 pics. A later pic of a leaf showed what appears to be phosphorus deficient..but again, it's 1 leaf. The 2 pics that show the whole plant are too far to really see the leaves, but they are mostly green and healthy looking. A calcium deficient plant would look quite bad for many reasons associated to its deficiency, just like a toxicity of it would cause a lockout of all other elements as well. Im assuming its not RO water the op is using, and in soil, especially with non RO water, plus he's feeding, calcium deficiencies would only happen with improper ph, which might be the culprit here. Above ph 7 (his medium is 7 he said), the calcium starts bonding with phosphorus to form the insoluble calcium phosphate, thus making phosphorus less available.
By lower waterings, i meant to give the plants under 5.8 ph'd water..he said he waters between 5-6 to lower it from 7 in the medium. Watering below 5.5 for soil is not ideal. Better to incorporate aluminum sulfate into the soil to let it lower it gradually and consistently. The extra low ph waterings take forever to hold in the medium and just stresses the plant in the process.
polishpollack
Well-Known Member
I don't know why people are on this "I have to pH my water" kind of kick. I never pH water. Another grower I know never pHs water, and everything is fine. Why do people here think they have to get pH of water down to anything in particular? What will that do?
Wow lol. It's called chemistry! The alkalinity of the water is more important than the ph, but nonetheless, consistent watering at a high or low ph will slowly swing the medium in that direction, to a limit, amendments depending. Keep giving a ph of 8, like most tap water is, and see what happens over time. Calcium bonds with phosphorus at higher ph and you lose both elements as they become insoluble. All heavier elements will be locked out as well (iron, copper, zinc, manganese). Try watering with a ph that's too low, and you'll see calcium bond with iron to once again form an insoluble compound. You lose the calcium and iron, and also magnesium. Not to mention, if ph gets too low, aluminum becomes present in high volumes and as you get to ph 5, aluminum will dissolve and kill your plant! Oh my, it's amazing some people can grow anything and have absolutely no understanding of the concept of plant growth or plant chemistry!
