My no till living soil list

[Greenthumbs256]

OK guys I've been doing some research into this no till so far this is my list I've taken from multiple different ppl. And made substitute for what I can get where I live. Am I missing any important pieces of this puzzle. I've made a list and prices of everything I need to buy plus what I already have. I should be able to get everything from three places, a local grow store, build a soil ,and uncle Jims worm farm. And I apologize for my horrible hand writing.

 

[MistaRasta]

OK guys I've been doing some research into this no till so far this is my list I've taken from multiple different ppl. And made substitute for what I can get where I live. Am I missing any important pieces of this puzzle. I've made a list and prices of everything I need to buy plus what I already have. I should be able to get everything from three places, a local grow store, build a soil ,and uncle Jims worm farm. And I apologize for my horrible hand writing.

I noticed ever since Buildasoil's los mix and 2.0 mix was made that people are trying to incorporate it into their procedure..IMO there's way too much stuff in there to begin with.

You already have 11 items that will get you through a grow no problem. None of the amendments listed above the ones you have would add any special elemental value to your soil.

Things I would definitely add would be minerals:
-Gypsum
-Basalt

I'd try going light in your initial mix and topdressing throughout your cycle to raise your ec. Much easier and safer way of doing things.

 

[Wetdog]

I noticed ever since Buildasoil's los mix and 2.0 mix was made that people are trying to incorporate it into their procedure..IMO there's way too much stuff in there to begin with.

You already have 11 items that will get you through a grow no problem. None of the amendments listed above the ones you have would add any special elemental value to your soil.

Things I would definitely add would be minerals:
-Gypsum
-Basalt

I'd try going light in your initial mix and topdressing throughout your cycle to raise your ec. Much easier and safer way of doing things.

^^^^THAT^^^^

But, I am going to add a few points that will hopefully save you some $$$ and more importantly, time. If observant, you will figure this out on your own, but it can take years for some things to become obvious, over several grow seasons and trying different things.

I've been making my own mix, from scratch, for better than 45 years. But, I've only been doing organics for the last 8 years or so. The basic mix has stayed constant throughout, but the amendments started out simple (6 or so), got "busy" (much like your 'to get' list), and have evolved back to 6 or so. The "busy" part lasted 3 or 4 years as stuff was eliminated as not needed, or, already covered by locally sourced items. There are only 2 amendments I use that require shipping (kelp meal and neem cake), everything else is sourced locally.

Minerals: Very much needed, but shipping rocks is about as silly as it sounds, especially when you are already covered with something you have and I don't mean the Azomite.

Kelp meal provides ALL the minerals and trace elements needed and usually more than any rock dust. The problem is cost. The whole deal with rock dust was with fields that were depleted of minerals and such (agriculture). If you had say, 40 acres that needed to be re-mineralized, the cost of that much kelp meal is prohibitive. Rock dust is only a few dollars a ton and works almost as well. For us (horticulture), in container mixes, with much smaller amounts used, the kelp shines.

BTW, for comparison, locally, Granite meal cost $5 for ~75lbs. ~$0.08/lb. No idea about BaS cost + shipping.

Bottom line, till you can find some RD locally, the kelp meal has you covered. The Azomite is just a plus.

Gypsum is easily sourced locally at just about any garden shop, or Lowes/HD. Cost is ~$12 for a 40lb bag.

Bio Char; A ~$8 bag of lump charcoal (cowboy charcoal), and some crushing on your part makes for cheap biochar.

Aeration: I would REALLY suggest you pass on the rocks and use perlite, at least till you gain some experience. Aeration is sooooo important (*I* run close to 50% total aeration) and using unsized, ungraded rocks because Coot said so usually ends up as a too dense and poor draining mix that the plants suffer in.

For me, this is a way worse problem than the 'kitchen sink' amendment list. Even very well amended mud is still mud and very little grows well in mud besides rice and crawdads.

Enough blathering for now.

 

[Greenthumbs256]

^^^^THAT^^^^

But, I am going to add a few points that will hopefully save you some $$$ and more importantly, time. If observant, you will figure this out on your own, but it can take years for some things to become obvious, over several grow seasons and trying different things.

I've been making my own mix, from scratch, for better than 45 years. But, I've only been doing organics for the last 8 years or so. The basic mix has stayed constant throughout, but the amendments started out simple (6 or so), got "busy" (much like your 'to get' list), and have evolved back to 6 or so. The "busy" part lasted 3 or 4 years as stuff was eliminated as not needed, or, already covered by locally sourced items. There are only 2 amendments I use that require shipping (kelp meal and neem cake), everything else is sourced locally.

Minerals: Very much needed, but shipping rocks is about as silly as it sounds, especially when you are already covered with something you have and I don't mean the Azomite.

Kelp meal provides ALL the minerals and trace elements needed and usually more than any rock dust. The problem is cost. The whole deal with rock dust was with fields that were depleted of minerals and such (agriculture). If you had say, 40 acres that needed to be re-mineralized, the cost of that much kelp meal is prohibitive. Rock dust is only a few dollars a ton and works almost as well. For us (horticulture), in container mixes, with much smaller amounts used, the kelp shines.

BTW, for comparison, locally, Granite meal cost $5 for ~75lbs. ~$0.08/lb. No idea about BaS cost + shipping.

Bottom line, till you can find some RD locally, the kelp meal has you covered. The Azomite is just a plus.

Gypsum is easily sourced locally at just about any garden shop, or Lowes/HD. Cost is ~$12 for a 40lb bag.

Bio Char; A ~$8 bag of lump charcoal (cowboy charcoal), and some crushing on your part makes for cheap biochar.

Aeration: I would REALLY suggest you pass on the rocks and use perlite, at least till you gain some experience. Aeration is sooooo important (*I* run close to 50% total aeration) and using unsized, ungraded rocks because Coot said so usually ends up as a too dense and poor draining mix that the plants suffer in.

For me, this is a way worse problem than the 'kitchen sink' amendment list. Even very well amended mud is still mud and very little grows well in mud besides rice and crawdads.

Enough blathering for now.

Amazing post thanks for your input!

 

[kratos015]

^^^^THAT^^^^

But, I am going to add a few points that will hopefully save you some $$$ and more importantly, time. If observant, you will figure this out on your own, but it can take years for some things to become obvious, over several grow seasons and trying different things.

I've been making my own mix, from scratch, for better than 45 years. But, I've only been doing organics for the last 8 years or so. The basic mix has stayed constant throughout, but the amendments started out simple (6 or so), got "busy" (much like your 'to get' list), and have evolved back to 6 or so. The "busy" part lasted 3 or 4 years as stuff was eliminated as not needed, or, already covered by locally sourced items. There are only 2 amendments I use that require shipping (kelp meal and neem cake), everything else is sourced locally.

Minerals: Very much needed, but shipping rocks is about as silly as it sounds, especially when you are already covered with something you have and I don't mean the Azomite.

Kelp meal provides ALL the minerals and trace elements needed and usually more than any rock dust. The problem is cost. The whole deal with rock dust was with fields that were depleted of minerals and such (agriculture). If you had say, 40 acres that needed to be re-mineralized, the cost of that much kelp meal is prohibitive. Rock dust is only a few dollars a ton and works almost as well. For us (horticulture), in container mixes, with much smaller amounts used, the kelp shines.

BTW, for comparison, locally, Granite meal cost $5 for ~75lbs. ~$0.08/lb. No idea about BaS cost + shipping.

Bottom line, till you can find some RD locally, the kelp meal has you covered. The Azomite is just a plus.

Gypsum is easily sourced locally at just about any garden shop, or Lowes/HD. Cost is ~$12 for a 40lb bag.

Bio Char; A ~$8 bag of lump charcoal (cowboy charcoal), and some crushing on your part makes for cheap biochar.

Aeration: I would REALLY suggest you pass on the rocks and use perlite, at least till you gain some experience. Aeration is sooooo important (*I* run close to 50% total aeration) and using unsized, ungraded rocks because Coot said so usually ends up as a too dense and poor draining mix that the plants suffer in.

For me, this is a way worse problem than the 'kitchen sink' amendment list. Even very well amended mud is still mud and very little grows well in mud besides rice and crawdads.

Enough blathering for now.

I just wanted to echo this and emphasize just how important this in particular is. I too had issues when I went 33% on everything and will be going with more aeration as well.

I actually just posted this in another thread on here, but consider how the process of creating soil is called "cooking". Ever add too much salt to something? You usually have to throw it out and start all over right? It's pretty much the same principle with organics, less is more. Start off light and you can always top dress with more amendments and compost as needed where as if there is too much you won't be able to fix it unless you're willing and able to transplant.

Great post by the way, helpful as always

 

[Wetdog]

Yeah, my basic mix now +/- is:

Peat moss -- 40%
Perlite -- 40%
Humus -- 20% That 20% is ~1/2 VC and 1/2 pine bark fines. The bark acts as aeration at first (bumping the total aeration tp ~50%) and breaks down to humus over a couple years time. The VC varies to the bin used. Some, that haven't been harvested in over a year are almost pure EWC and less is used. Some, a few months old, are much less dense and more is added, but that's all an eyeball thing.

That 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 ratio just don't seem to cut it for a well aerated/draining mix, but people keep doing it because 'so and so' said so, instead of observing just what does or doesn't work.

 

[kratos015]

Yeah, my basic mix now +/- is:

Peat moss -- 40%
Perlite -- 40%
Humus -- 20% That 20% is ~1/2 VC and 1/2 pine bark fines. The bark acts as aeration at first (bumping the total aeration tp ~50%) and breaks down to humus over a couple years time. The VC varies to the bin used. Some, that haven't been harvested in over a year are almost pure EWC and less is used. Some, a few months old, are much less dense and more is added, but that's all an eyeball thing.

That 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 ratio just don't seem to cut it for a well aerated/draining mix, but people keep doing it because 'so and so' said so, instead of observing just what does or doesn't work.

Thank you so much for posting this, once again Wetdog.

I went with the 33% ratios because it's what Coots recommended, even his most recent recipes involve those ratios. I'd like to think I know a decent amount about organics, but I'm certainly not going to sit here and claim that I'm smarter/know more than Coots or others on here and other various forums. But like you just pointed out, I can't help but observe that the 33% ratios caused me too many problems. But I'm still an amateur in my opinion, so it felt weird for me to think the ratios were causing me problems and I thought it was my own inexperience.

Another thing that I was thinking about is that the compaction issue seems to be more problematic the more soil you have. My 2g pots were on top of milk crates and were able to properly run off, where as my 25g pots were on the ground and were not able to properly run off. On top of this, my thinking is that the larger your soil mass the bigger an issue soil compaction becomes. Makes sense because I figure 20g of soil will compact WAY faster than 2g of soil because of all of the extra weight no?

I'm still learning (never ending process! ) and so I didn't feel quite right thinking the 33% ratios were wrong because I'm not experienced as Coots. However, having someone with your experience confirm my train of thought is incredibly validating and I can't thank you enough. I have nothing to back up this claim, and this is just conjecture on my part here, but I think CC only uses 33% compost/EWC because he makes both on his own. Perhaps his EWC/compost are of a consistency that allows him to get away with 33% in his mix.

Would you mind telling me more about the pine bark fines? I've never heard of it before and did a quick google search to check into it, it appears that some people use the stuff for their reptile cages? Seems like it's much more affordable than rice hulls as well. I'm quite interested to hear more about it, but I'm also a bit hesitant to incorporate it into my mix because I feel like it will be another learning curve as it's another thing that decomposes that I have to account for. Considering my own lack of experience/expertise I may just be better off sticking to perlite/pumice/lava rock for my aeration I'm thinking.

Thanks again man.